The Rush Thread v. Clockwork Angels

[1neeto]

For fuck's sake, do you not know how to read?  Everybody has been saying the same thing, and you still don't get it.

Your opinion is not that different from many others.  It's the way you present it.  You're not just presenting a strong negative opinion; you're presenting it arrogantly, stating opinions as though they were facts, and literally ignoring anyone who tells you so (which is pretty much everyone).

You fucking whine "Oh, I have a negative opinion so everyone's jumping on my case!"  No.  People are jumping on your case because you're acting like an asshole.  If you took the time to actually read what's being said here, you'd know that.

Perception. You perceive my opinion as arrogant and that I'm trying to pass it as fact. it wasn't my intent to try and pass my opinion as fact, I simply wanted to express how much I dislike this album. Whether you guys perceived it as arrogant, then that's your problem. Period(sic).

IMO if an album doesn't seem good by the third listen, then by the fourth or fifth listen you're forcing yourself to like it.

I hated almost all of Ride the Lightning for the first 4 months I owned it.   Only Creeping Death kept me coming back. 


hmmm....must have been a really bad album after all.     I see the light now.   Thank you.   You've helped me to see that after 20 some odd listens, I was only forcing myself to like what is obviously a worthless pile of dung, and not (in fact) one of the greatest metal masterpieces of all time. 

I don't know what I would have done without your enlightenment.   I am forever in your debt.   I'm off to cast to the flames at least 60% of the greatest albums I've ever heard in my life...because I've obviously been fooling myself all this time. 

You're allowed to dislike something that's considered a masterpiece by most, you know that right. Just because most consider something a masterpiece, doesn't mean it's a masterpiece for everyone, and if you disagree then you're wrong. For example, most die hard Metallica fans place MOP as their greatest album, and AJFA their most creative. I disagree with the former and Completely agree with the latter. But just because I don't care much for MOP, doesn't mean I'm wrong for not liking what many consider one of the greatest thrash metal albums of all time. It simply means I have an opinion that's different to most. I was clear that it was my opinion that if you don't like an album by the third listen or so, then you're probably forcing yourself to like it.


I'm done here. I shouldn't have voiced my strong negative opinion in a Rush fan thread.

[The Letter M]

I'm done here. I shouldn't have voiced my strong negative opinion in a Rush fan thread.

Well duh

It's like going to a major sporting event and bashing the home-team, the one that everyone around you roots for, regardless of how much they like/love the team - fans are fans, whether they just show up to the game to watch, or if they wear body-paint, colored wigs and shout obscenities...for some, it's loyalty, upholding what you love...for others, it's just truly believing in it.

It's unfortunate you don't think much of the new album, especially when so many do (like those who haven't been quite impressed with a new Rush album in a long time), from casual fans, hardcore fans, fans who have fallen out of touch, to critics and reviewers who don't normally praise a band like Rush. I'd say, for them, this is almost like 2112 all over again - they stuck it out and did something no one would expect and took a huge chance with it, despite some mediocre reception to the last couple of albums.

Maybe in a couple of years, you'll listen to it again with some new ears, and give it another chance. After all, I never liked Presto very much until recently, and now I've grown to love the album!

-Marc.

[jammindude]

Of course I know I can like or dislike whatever I want. Heck, I catch flack all the the time because I truly enjoy St. anger and Lulu, and really don't care for The Black Album.

Against the stream...I prefer Test For Echo over the much more popular (and imo, overrated and very "meh") Counterparts.

I think Roll the Bones, Hold Your Fire and Vapor Trails are pretty lame albums. Rush IS NOT infallible. But this, IMO is their best album since Power Windows, and maybe even Permanent Waves. And the OVERWHELMING majority agrees with me.

[dbrooks22]

It took me a very long time to appreciate Presto - about 6 months.  Since then - 1993 - it has grown and evolved in ways that i would never have imagined.  Now, it is hands down my desert island Rush CD.

That being said, I'm with Nick.  I don't think we all need to gang up like mad chimps on one guy because he doesn't know how to express an opinion tastefully.  In fact, i appreciate people who feel that strongly, whether positive or negative, about it.  It gives me perspective that i can use and reference.

[KevShmev]

Okay, so, I was at a friends's last night, and we cranked up Clockwork Angels on his stereo (he is an audiophile and has has a magnificent-sounding stereo for as long as I have known him, which is 20+ years now), and I have to say that it sounded quite good.  Yes, it still could have sounded a little better, but the bottom line is that the mix/production is not bad or anything close to that; it is simply a matter of listening to it on a good system.  Like I said before, most basic car systems are not gonna have enough power to handle all of the low bass on the album, hence it distorting it and making it sound very muddy in that environment.  But on a great stereo, Clockwork Angels sounds good; not great, not bad, but good.  So, at this point, I am gonna have to assume anyone saying the CD sounds bad simply hasn't listened to it on a good stereo yet.  In this day and age of iTunes and iPods, I'll bet that is a lot of people.

[TAC]

I would not have known this album sounded bad if it wasn't for this thread.

[Phoenix87x]

I would not have known this album sounded bad if it wasn't for this thread.

Me neither. I didn't even know there was a problem.

[ZBomber]

So, at this point, I am gonna have to assume anyone saying the CD sounds bad simply hasn't listened to it on a good stereo yet.

No.

[Priest of Syrinx]

So, at this point, I am gonna have to assume anyone saying the CD sounds bad simply hasn't listened to it on a good stereo yet.

No.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Okay, so, I was at a friends's last night, and we cranked up Clockwork Angels on his stereo (he is an audiophile and has has a magnificent-sounding stereo for as long as I have known him, which is 20+ years now), and I have to say that it sounded quite good.  Yes, it still could have sounded a little better, but the bottom line is that the mix/production is not bad or anything close to that; it is simply a matter of listening to it on a good system.  Like I said before, most basic car systems are not gonna have enough power to handle all of the low bass on the album, hence it distorting it and making it sound very muddy in that environment.  But on a great stereo, Clockwork Angels sounds good; not great, not bad, but good.  So, at this point, I am gonna have to assume anyone saying the CD sounds bad simply hasn't listened to it on a good stereo yet.  In this day and age of iTunes and iPods, I'll bet that is a lot of people.

So, lemme get this straight... if a person has a sound system that he is happy with, that provides good sound on all of his albums... put he puts on CA and it sounds kinda crummy, it's the sound system's fault? 

No, it's not a good job producing, Geddy all but admitted this in a recent interview, they were willing to "compromise" with the powers-that-be because they wanted to get the album out.

I don't think CA sounds horrible, my music-listening setup is pretty humble, a Kenwood tuner and Advent Prodigy II speakers.  CA sounds just bad enough to take a bit of the edge off of my listening enjoyment.

[KevShmev]

So, lemme get this straight... if a person has a sound system that he is happy with, that provides good sound on all of his albums... put he puts on CA and it sounds kinda crummy, it's the sound system's fault? 

Um, yes.

But to reiterate, I am not saying it sounds great; it doesn't.  It still sounds like a muddy mess in my car if I crank it up at all.  But on a good stereo, it sounds good, not bad or terrible like some would have us think.  That is all I am saying.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd say it is about a 6 (most PT records being a 9 or 10, and Vapor Trails being a 1 or 2, for comparison's sake).

[Mladen]

It sounds good to me. Sometimes I wish the guitar was a bit more dominant, but that's the only small complaint I have.

[ZBomber]

So, lemme get this straight... if a person has a sound system that he is happy with, that provides good sound on all of his albums... put he puts on CA and it sounds kinda crummy, it's the sound system's fault? 

Um, yes.

But to reiterate, I am not saying it sounds great; it doesn't.  It still sounds like a muddy mess in my car if I crank it up at all.  But on a good stereo, it sounds good, not bad or terrible like some would have us think.  That is all I am saying.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd say it is about a 6 (most PT records being a 9 or 10, and Vapor Trails being a 1 or 2, for comparison's sake).

I have a pretty good sound system. Clockwork does not sound good on it. It has nothing to do with the system, it is just horrible production. You really have to tweak with the EQ for it to sound anywhere near decent, which is what I'm guessing your friend probably did that made it sound so much better to you. It has nothing to do with the sound system though, I've listened to it through several systems now and it still sounds like shit.

Music shouldn't be made to just sound good on the highest end system and shit on anything else anyways, so I don't know why you are insisting upon that point. If anything, a higher end system will magnify the defects in the production.

[KevShmev]

Actually, he did not tweak any settings.  In fact, he doesn't even own the CD yet (he is the king of procrastination ), and he didn't even know what I was putting on when I popped Clockwork Angels in.  And for the 773rd time, I wish like hell that it sounded better, but it doesn't sound bad or "like shit" or anything like that.  Well, except in my car.

[King Postwhore]

Kev.  Nobody is reading your posts I guess?!

[Priest of Syrinx]

So, lemme get this straight... if a person has a sound system that he is happy with, that provides good sound on all of his albums... but he puts on CA and it sounds kinda crummy, it's the sound system's fault? 

Um, yes.

But to reiterate, I am not saying it sounds great; it doesn't.  It still sounds like a muddy mess in my car if I crank it up at all.  But on a good stereo, it sounds good, not bad or terrible like some would have us think.  That is all I am saying.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd say it is about a 6 (most PT records being a 9 or 10, and Vapor Trails being a 1 or 2, for comparison's sake).

oh

Well, at least the production isn't as bad as VT.  It doesn't give me a headache. 

[Mladen]

Hey, guys, I just noticed an interesting pattern in my opinion on Rush albums from Power windows onwards:

Power windows - great
Hold your fire - okay
Presto - great
Roll the bones - okay
Counterparts - great
Test for echo - okay
Vapor trails - great
Snakes and arrows - okay

Which brings me to my point - Clockwork angels is probably going to be great. I've only listened to it a couple of times so far, but I'm very happy with it so far. One of the catchiest tunes on here is Wish them well, but I didn't see a lot of appreciation for it here. Why is that?

[TL]

I've heard CA on two different high end stereo setups, and I've listened to it quite a bit with a good pair of Sennheiser headphones. It's far from terrible, but even at its best, it sounds much flatter than it should, and lacks punch.

I love the album, and the sound quality isn't bad enough to ruin my enjoyment, but it's just disappointing for a band like Rush to settle for this sort of mastering, especially when good mastering could have given it an extra kick. It's far from bad, but the problem is noticeable. It's not just an issue of listening to it on muddy car speakers.

[Lowdz]

I've heard CA on two different high end stereo setups, and I've listened to it quite a bit with a good pair of Sennheiser headphones. It's far from terrible, but even at its best, it sounds much flatter than it should, and lacks punch.

I love the album, and the sound quality isn't bad enough to ruin my enjoyment, but it's just disappointing for a band like Rush to settle for this sort of mastering, especially when good mastering could have given it an extra kick. It's far from bad, but the problem is noticeable. It's not just an issue of listening to it on muddy car speakers.

It's not like they haven't had poor sounding albums before though. throughout their long career there's been a few. CoS, Hemispheres, Signals, Presto, VT... some of those albums are great but the production/mix/master had issues for me. Shame they compromised. They are Rush ffs- they should get what  they want.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I've heard CA on two different high end stereo setups, and I've listened to it quite a bit with a good pair of Sennheiser headphones. It's far from terrible, but even at its best, it sounds much flatter than it should, and lacks punch.

I love the album, and the sound quality isn't bad enough to ruin my enjoyment, but it's just disappointing for a band like Rush to settle for this sort of mastering, especially when good mastering could have given it an extra kick. It's far from bad, but the problem is noticeable. It's not just an issue of listening to it on muddy car speakers.

It's not like they haven't had poor sounding albums before though. throughout their long career there's been a few. CoS, Hemispheres, Signals, Presto, VT... some of those albums are great but the production/mix/master had issues for me. Shame they compromised. They are Rush ffs- they should get what  they want.

Since there's several editions of all these albums, it gets kind of inconsistent.  What with the originals, remasters, sector 1, gold-plated etc.

With the older stuff, I never really had an issue with the mix, but I always thought Signals sounded pretty flat, it needed some EQ to shine.  Exit Stage Left has always sounded blah to me.

[ytserush]

The only album I've really gotten a headache listening to was Systematic Chaos. I almost always get a headache when I listen to it.

I ALMOST got a headache when I heard Clockwork Angels for the first time.  Another five or 10 minutes and it would have happened (ear fatigue.)

Vapor Trails doesn't even give me a headache when I listen to it (Though the sonic problems with Vapor Trails are more severe than with Clockwork Angels (and have been widely documented elsewhere))

It is not sonically perfect (not by a long shot), but Clockwork Angels sounded better to me with each listen once I could figure out what was going on. When I'm listening, any problems seem to be in the mid-range where you kind of have to be patient to wade through a little of the mud. (Mostly Alex's wall of guitars.)

The LP sounds  does a little bit better though (Thanks again, Nick. I still haven't cracked open my copy.)

Yet the album still continues to kick my ass. It's never left my car since the day I got it and it's only been out of my home stereo a handful of times since then too.

I've been trying to find some way to get to another show on this leg (Philly) because I want to experience this live as much as possible.

[Nel_Annette]

Vapor Trails actually did give me a headache when I first heard it. There are some good songs on there, but I have to turn my headphones lower whenever they come up.

[Big Hath]

One of the catchiest tunes on here is Wish them well, but I didn't see a lot of appreciation for it here. Why is that?

I like the song, but it does seem to get a little repetitive.

[King Postwhore]

I've heard CA on two different high end stereo setups, and I've listened to it quite a bit with a good pair of Sennheiser headphones. It's far from terrible, but even at its best, it sounds much flatter than it should, and lacks punch.

I love the album, and the sound quality isn't bad enough to ruin my enjoyment, but it's just disappointing for a band like Rush to settle for this sort of mastering, especially when good mastering could have given it an extra kick. It's far from bad, but the problem is noticeable. It's not just an issue of listening to it on muddy car speakers.

It's not like they haven't had poor sounding albums before though. throughout their long career there's been a few. CoS, Hemispheres, Signals, Presto, VT... some of those albums are great but the production/mix/master had issues for me. Shame they compromised. They are Rush ffs- they should get what  they want.

Since there's several editions of all these albums, it gets kind of inconsistent.  What with the originals, remasters, sector 1, gold-plated etc.

With the older stuff, I never really had an issue with the mix, but I always thought Signals sounded pretty flat, it needed some EQ to shine.  Exit Stage Left has always sounded blah to me.

You know the remaster of Signals I payed $6.99 for sounds better than the $25 dollar Gold Disk version.  The thing that makes the gold disk cool though is the missing line from "The Weapon".

[jammindude]

I remember reading about that!  I've always wanted to hear that for that reason.   I guess a lot of people thought there was a fault in the production....even Mobile Fidelity initially thought there was a mistake...but it turned out that the line had been *added later*...surprised even the manufacturers.

[King Postwhore]

Yup.  I remember listening to it with my cousin and Brother and they missed it.  For months I told them they were not real Rush fans.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I'm more in love with this album than I was with S&A

f'real

[King Postwhore]

I'm more in love with this album than I was with S&A

f'real

Me too.  They seem better suited to be played live too.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I'm more in love with this album than I was with S&A

f'real

IMO CA blows away S&A.

[nicmos]

IMO CA blows away S&A.

+1!

[KevShmev]

I'm more in love with this album than I was with S&A

f'real

Oh yeah, it really isn't close.  I liked S&A a ton when it came out, and still enjoy most of it a lot, but Clockwork Angels is a whole different animal. 

[Priest of Syrinx]

I'm more in love with this album than I was with S&A

f'real

Oh yeah, it really isn't close.  I liked S&A a ton when it came out, and still enjoy most of it a lot, but Clockwork Angels is a whole different animal.

The only song from S&A that compares with the best of CA is Far Cry (IMO).

[The King in Crimson]

Okay, so, I was at a friends's last night, and we cranked up Clockwork Angels on his stereo (he is an audiophile and has has a magnificent-sounding stereo for as long as I have known him, which is 20+ years now), and I have to say that it sounded quite good.  Yes, it still could have sounded a little better, but the bottom line is that the mix/production is not bad or anything close to that; it is simply a matter of listening to it on a good system.  Like I said before, most basic car systems are not gonna have enough power to handle all of the low bass on the album, hence it distorting it and making it sound very muddy in that environment.  But on a great stereo, Clockwork Angels sounds good; not great, not bad, but good.  So, at this point, I am gonna have to assume anyone saying the CD sounds bad simply hasn't listened to it on a good stereo yet.  In this day and age of iTunes and iPods, I'll bet that is a lot of people.

Yeah, I agree with this.

I've listened to CA only in my car since release and it sounds, generally, awful, but on my headphones at home it does sound remarkably better.  Still not a good sounding release, but the quality jump is noticeably apparent.

[Orbert]

Pretty much anything is going to sound better on a good sound system than on a crappy one.  True, iPods and mp3s are ubiquitous these days, and in most cases they just don't sound as good, but if you make an album today, you know that.  You know that the majority of your audience will not be listening on a high-end system, so it makes no sense to create something that only sounds good on a high-end system.

One of my favorite albums, and one of the best-sounding albums I've ever heard, is The Cars.  They actually took the masters and played them in the car while driving around to see how the album sounded.  They reasoned that if it sounds good in your car, on mediocre speakers, it's gonna sound good anywhere.  And they're right; it sounds great in my car, and fantastic on my home stereo.

I'm not saying that that's the way all albums should be produced, but there is such a thing as keeping your target audience, and the likely playback conditions, in mind.  If you listen to an album on a high-end system and still only give it a 6, there's something wrong.

[King Postwhore]

Every song but 2 from that first Car's album was played on the radio too.  The only other time I remember something like that was with the first Boston album.