david prater =/

[hefdaddy42]

Oy vey.

Triggered snares or not, Images & Words sounds amazing.

[icanplaydrums]

I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?

The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.

So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.

(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit)

[antigoon]

David Prater is the fucking man and I wish he was still working with DT. I think the triggered snare fits the sound of the record fine. /serious response

[emindead]

I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?

The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.

So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.

(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit.)

Now I understand. Thanks for the response.

[setrataeso]

I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.

and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/

i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds

Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.

no need to get mean
if you dont like what im saying
dont reply to the thread

Not being mean.
But if you can't take criticism for people disagreeing with your opinion, you dont need to restate your opinion. Its not going to change their minds.

And honestly dude, you've been here less than a month and you've complained about a thousand things.
Im not trying to hassle you for being a noob (cuz it happened to me too), but you need to know your place. Its fine to make a name for yourself around here, but posting a dozen times on your own thread saying the exact same thing is hardly the way to earn respect.
Because respect is earned by not wearing a shirt 

[Zydar]

When I read the official book I thought Prater was a total jerk, with a huge ego. But listening to I&W I have no problem with the triggered snare, or anything else soundwise on that album. So I kind of have mixed feelings about this guy.

[tri.ad]

I don't really care about him. He did a great job on Images as a producer, and the triggered snare and kick drum doesn't bother me.

[MetalMike06]

Yeah, the descriptions in the book make him sound like a douche. But I like the way I&W and ACOS sound. So, not my place to whine.   

[orcus116]

I'd still trust an outside producers' opinion on DT's music over Portnoy's any day. Except maybe Bob Rock. Fuck him.

[BlobVanDam]

The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.

rumborak

That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.

[orcus116]

I don't think Rumborak's got anything against Portnoy, it's just that Portnoy would definitely overreact to something like that.

[BlobVanDam]

Well he's not talking about "would", he's quite clearly talking about "did", so unfortunately facts are required for that to hold up.

[orcus116]

I'm guessing that's part of the book, which I know you haven't read either. Knowing how Portnoy reacts to things it wouldn't surprise me.

[BlobVanDam]

Well I prefer to use facts rather than make assumptions. If he said something in the book, I'd like to know what it is before I get carried away and believe hype. Not that I'm denying it, just saying that based on what I know, I don't believe he's taken any stabs at Prater just because of some powerplay.

[Pierced Brosnan]

Prater comes across as an absolute dick in Lifting Shadows, often insulting a lot of the members with very harsh words. That said, the albums sound great for the most part. The snare does grate with me at parts (the quiet parts on Learning To Live come to mind) but most of the time you forget about it and just listen to the music.

Also, JP has overdubbed acoustic and electric parts on many MANY songs, probably more so as the albums go on. It sounds cool.

Which parts of ACOS are triggered? I remember reading (I think in Lifting Shadows again) that one of the terms Prater was told when he went to work on it that NO triggering was allowed because the band hated it so much.

[perfey]

I don't really care about him. He did a great job on Images as a producer, and the triggered snare and kick drum doesn't bother me.

Same here, and with ACOS too, I have mixed feelings about him too (like Zydar).

[icysk8r]

No.  I am frightened.

LOL

[icysk8r]

...

I always liked the snare on I&W...

edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?

because its impossible to play patterns on the ride and hihat and some crashes all while filling on the snare.
he hits the snare waaaaay too many times for it to be possible...
maybe if he had 3 arms
which with the way mike portnoy plays, i wouldnt doubt it

[Zydar]

well anything is possible when MP sits behind the drums

[icysk8r]

I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.

and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/

i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds

Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.

no need to get mean
if you dont like what im saying
dont reply to the thread

Not being mean.
But if you can't take criticism for people disagreeing with your opinion, you dont need to restate your opinion. Its not going to change their minds.

And honestly dude, you've been here less than a month and you've complained about a thousand things.
Im not trying to hassle you for being a noob (cuz it happened to me too), but you need to know your place. Its fine to make a name for yourself around here, but posting a dozen times on your own thread saying the exact same thing is hardly the way to earn respect.
Because respect is earned by not wearing a shirt 

lol
i already apologized for this
=p

[hefdaddy42]

When I read the official book I thought Prater was a total jerk, with a huge ego.

Of course he is a jerk with a huge ego.  That is why he is a successful producer.

[Dream Team]

I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?

The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.

So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.

(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit)

Well I can't stand the way that part sounds live, so I'm all for the triggered snare if that's what it takes. And honestly, I've watched him play that part on several different DVDs and he could hit that snare harder if he wanted to, it doesn't look like he's having a difficult time with it.

[rumborak]

The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.

rumborak

That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.

If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.

My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.

rumborak

[BlobVanDam]

The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.

rumborak

That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.

If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.

My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.

rumborak

Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater? Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me), he has only made a passing reference in context to hating the snare sound, and never about Prater personally other than mentioning it was his decision, and there was no malice in his comments. Unless he has made more comments I'm unaware of, then in the book they're on even ground. The reason we have this ONE thread about David prater is because nobody likes the triggered snare sound, and any fan who has listened to the commentary for LiT knows that is because of Prater. It only takes a passing comment by the band for the fans to take notice. JR made one reference at a music show about a choir sound and DT entering the gothic domain, and we had endless discussion about that too. It doesn't take much to spark discussion here.
I personally love the triggered snare (although I'd love to hear it with a natural snare like LiT sound), so I have nothing against him, and IaW is a great sounding album, but by all accounts the guy is a bigger jerk than MP is, so I wouldn't take his word on anything.

[Zydar]

Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?

[icysk8r]

The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.

rumborak

That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.

If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.

My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.

rumborak

Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater? Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me), he has only made a passing reference in context to hating the snare sound, and never about Prater personally other than mentioning it was his decision, and there was no malice in his comments. Unless he has made more comments I'm unaware of, then in the book they're on even ground. The reason we have this ONE thread about David prater is because nobody likes the triggered snare sound, and any fan who has listened to the commentary for LiT knows that is because of Prater. It only takes a passing comment by the band for the fans to take notice. JR made one reference at a music show about a choir sound and DT entering the gothic domain, and we had endless discussion about that too. It doesn't take much to spark discussion here.
I personally love the triggered snare (although I'd love to hear it with a natural snare like LiT sound), so I have nothing against him, and IaW is a great sounding album, but by all accounts the guy is a bigger jerk than MP is, so I wouldn't take his word on anything.

i'm not sure if mp really hates him personally.
all i know is he hated what he did with his drums.
i dont have actual quotes.
i would find them, but im at school now, and sites are blocked
=/

[BlobVanDam]

Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?

Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.

[skydivingninja]

There is nothing wrong with the triggered snare or David Prater.

[Dublagent66]

 

[LudwigVan]

Do I like David Prater personally?   Don't know don't care

Do I like what David Prater did with I&W and ACOS?  Yes

[rumborak]

Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater?

I don't exactly have a "quote library" lying around, no.

Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me)

You should read it.

rumborak

[BlobVanDam]

I'll definitely be buying the second edition when it comes out. Would have been nice to know if there was any evidence at all of MP making any comments towards Prater before then...

[Rich Wilson]

I'll definitely be buying the second edition when it comes out. Would have been nice to know if there was any evidence at all of MP making any comments towards Prater before then...

I haven't come across any - though that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have found a few where JLB and JP were saying that they wouldn't want to work with Prater again (which were around 96 I think).
The way things worked on the book was that Prater was the first person I interviewed. He made those comments and the band (MP, JLB & JP) responded accordingly.

[ReaPsTA]

Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?

Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.

The kick drum on I&W is sampled? Ugh. It makes sense since the greatest hit kick drum is almost totally different, but still. The toms though I'm pretty sure are either not samples, or they used the same samples on the greatest hit version.

[BlobVanDam]

Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?

Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.

The kick drum on I&W is sampled? Ugh. It makes sense since the greatest hit kick drum is almost totally different, but still. The toms though I'm pretty sure are either not samples, or they used the same samples on the greatest hit version.

With the typical early 90s production, it can be hard to tell what's synthetic or not. I can't remember what the toms sound like on GH though, so I'll have to listen back. And I believe it was snare and bass that was sampled on IaW. Although with a kick drum it's easier to get away with and harder to tell the difference, but it sounds a lot ... "flippper" on IaW, if that makes sense? It sounds a lot sharper with more attack on GH, and I think it's beyond a basic remixing/EQ.