Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[MirrorMask]

For book readers: is it true that Naath, the place where Missandei comes from and where the Unsullied will retire to, has some kind of deadly butterflies to which only the natives are immune, and so the show in telling us that Greyworm and the Unsullied go to Naath, they basically told us, maybe without even realizing it or actually knowing it, that they're all gonna die?

And since we're talking about the books.... as I previously said, I didn't read the books, but I've read a lot about the books, and so I know that in the far, far east there's a city called Assai by the Shadow which is shrouded in eternal darkness and that it's super mysterious and nobody really knows what happens there, Melisandre comes from there and all sort of weird magical shit is supposed to go down there.

Regardless of the impact it will have in the books, I love the idea of having a super hidden mystery in a story just for the sake of it, an "easter egg" of sort - I like to think that whatever goes down in Assai, it's more important and crazy and interesting than anything that happens in Westeros, and that George RR Martin imagined it but will never address it properly in the books just because he could. 

A bit like Tom Bombadil, imagine if Tolkien created an insane backstory for him, worth an entire saga and another trilogy, and used him in the Lord of the Rings just to be a wacky character the Hobbits meet.  I can totally picture GRRM having prepared a story so insanely twisted and awesome for Assai, and never ever use it in the books 

[hefdaddy42]

Assai is rumored to be the original birthplace of dragons.

[Adami]

So, I wasn't able to watch the episode til yesterday. Which made avoiding media really tough. Even the news was trying to spoil stuff.

So obviously I don't have the patience to read the 4 or whatever pages since, so I'll just assume everything has been said and I'll keep my thoughts brief.

The finale was.......fine.

Great? Nah
Bad? Nah

It felt like they knew the ending pieces for quite some time and kind of forced where they were in the story (maybe a season or so ago) to get there as quickly as possible. The actual ending in concept was fine. Jon killing Dany for those reasons, Tyrion doing what he did, electing Bran king, all the rest etc., it all made sense but it was just done so fast that I didn't connect with almost any of it. It was like just watching stuff happen for me. I can't really argue with where they took everything, but the rushing of it just removed any emotional connection to me. It was almost like reading the Wikipedia plot descriptions without watching the show. Like "ohh that's what happens, cool".

The part I really really liked was Drogon dealing with Dany's death. Nudging her, burning the throne (more in a minute) and taking her to leave was really well done. The rest? Fine. Very well acted as always. Just couldn't connect with any of it, despite understanding it all.


So about Drogon, apparently there's a lot of debate on why he did that? I thought it was just obvious that dragons are very smart and he recognized that her desire for the throne is what killed her, etc. I'm happy with that interpretation.

The dialogue between Dany and Jon at the end was fine. In subject, great, but it was soooooo on the nose and blunt that it stopped me from connecting. Another unfortunate consequence of being so hurried. They just had to speak all of the subtext and fall into the "tell but not show" trap. They just kind of said everything instead of crafting a clever way of showing it. Ah well.

It's over. I don't feel a whole lot, which is, I think, the biggest disappointment.

[The Walrus]

I was waiting for your thoughts, Adami! 

Earlier I said I wish each 3 episode arc was a full season or more on its own. What do you think of that?

[Adami]

I was waiting for your thoughts, Adami! 

Earlier I said I wish each 3 episode arc was a full season or more on its own. What do you think of that?

I'd be good with that. I STILL think they need better writing. Rushed is one major problem, totally, but blunt on the nose dialogue and just telling instead of showing is a problem too. I think D&D should have taken a step back and let new and excited and very talented people take the charge on the big stuff.

It was a bit like the 2nd half of Age of Ultron. Obviously Joss was just burnt out and exhausted and you can tell from watching it.

[cramx3]

I was waiting for your thoughts, Adami! 

Earlier I said I wish each 3 episode arc was a full season or more on its own. What do you think of that?

That could have worked, one season dealing wtih the Night King while we see Cersei scheming in the south to build her army. The final season is then Dany's Turn and the torching of Kings Landing.  Obviously they would have had to add more plots to make a season worth of TV, but it could have been done and it might have worked better.  Definitely would have stood a better chance I think.

[KevShmev]

While I agree that the last three episodes felt rushed, there is no way the Night King story was.  As I said at the time, once that battle begun, there were only two ways for it to end: they kill the Night King and put an end to him and the WW's, or the Night Kings wins, which means everyone in the North is killed and gone.  That was not a war that could go on for a whole season once the actual fighting began.  And once they got past the wall at the end of S7, dragging it on for an entire season before they actually made it to Winterfell to fight would have felt tedious.

[gmillerdrake]

While I agree that the last three episodes felt rushed, there is no way the Night King story was.  As I said at the time, once that battle begun, there were only two ways for it to end: they kill the Night King and put an end to him and the WW's, or the Night Kings wins, which means everyone in the North is killed and gone.  That was not a war that could go on for a whole season once the actual fighting began.  And once they got past the wall at the end of S7, dragging it on for an entire season before they actually made it to Winterfell to fight would have felt tedious.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with the Night King conclusion.

[RuRoRul]

Earlier I said I wish each 3 episode arc was a full season or more on its own. What do you think of that?

I think the reaction to the end of the White Walkers storyline proves how that would have gone down with the fanbase. "What the fuck the Night King was killed so quickly?" was one of the biggest responses after it was over. If they had finished off the White Walker storyline at the end of the second last season and left it a whole year or more to return to whatever came after the White Walkers it would have been a huge struggle to sell it without the overwhelming threat remaining.

Ironically the fact that it only took two episodes before most were saying "this was rushed, this should have been a whole season" pretty much proves that there was easily enough conflict and content to justify at least three episodes after The Long Night (as I expected there would be). But even if that's true, the audience wouldn't have been happy about the White Walkers being defeated before the final season.

[Evermind]

For book readers: is it true that Naath, the place where Missandei comes from and where the Unsullied will retire to, has some kind of deadly butterflies to which only the natives are immune, and so the show in telling us that Greyworm and the Unsullied go to Naath, they basically told us, maybe without even realizing it or actually knowing it, that they're all gonna die?

I mean, I don't think it's in the actual five books released (or maybe it's mentioned in passing in some of the dialogue with Missandei), but I do think that was mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire. In fact, I just Googled it and this article on AWOIAF doesn't have any spoilers for the series, so it's pretty safe to read:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Butterfly_fever

It's also Asshai, not Assai. Easy to remember because it's like Asshat, but with an I.

[MirrorMask]

While I agree that the last three episodes felt rushed, there is no way the Night King story was.  As I said at the time, once that battle begun, there were only two ways for it to end: they kill the Night King and put an end to him and the WW's, or the Night Kings wins, which means everyone in the North is killed and gone.  That was not a war that could go on for a whole season once the actual fighting began.  And once they got past the wall at the end of S7, dragging it on for an entire season before they actually made it to Winterfell to fight would have felt tedious.

I agree with all of this, but maybe there could have been a third way, with Winterfell being tactically lost, but the heroes surviving.

The secret passages out of Winterfell were mentioned since Theon captured Winterfell, and Yara conquered back the Iron Islands with the explicity stated added bonus of being a fallback point if needed. All the ingredients were there, I know I'm not alone in assuming that the White Walkers would have taken over Westeros and Cersei, the Maesters and everyone else in the world would have realized "oh shit - they were right".

I know this poses problems of their own - Jon would never leave Winterfell and abandon people to their fate, it's unrealistic to have literally Jon, Sansa, Tyrion and Arya plus a selected 40-50 people escape Winterfell and "well, sucks to be you" to everyone else, but we were told over and over how the only war that mattered was the one against the White Walkers, and it turned out into a rought night for the northeners at Winterfell. We were promised World War II because people didn't heed the signs, and Hitler got shanked the moment he invaded Poland instead.

Oh, and if anyone feels up for a good read... I know that the moment that you compare Game of Thrones to Shakespeare is the moment when you have to take a breath of fresh air, go out for a walk and watch other series or read other books, but this is a very nice and detailed comparison between why we feel for MacBeth, and why the whole Dany fiasco was soooo rushed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/brdj7x/spoilers_extended_why_daenerys_season_8_plotline/

Speaking more generally, call it bias, call it being susceptible for well spoken and thought out opinions, but I have to say that for every episode I've read many forums and Reddit threads, and 9 times out of 10 I found myself conceding that the complaints made were legit, and 9 times out of 10 I found myself agreeing that some minor changes here and there would have made a scene less cringeworthy. Maybe for some perspective I should go and dig up negative reviews of Breaking Bad, which I loved, and see if I am "convinced" by legitimate and well presented complaints, of if I'll remain of the idea that the finale was as perfect as it could reasonably be (of BB I mean).

[Grappler]

I know this poses problems of their own - Jon would never leave Winterfell and abandon people to their fate, it's unrealistic to have literally Jon, Sansa, Tyrion and Arya plus a selected 40-50 people escape Winterfell and "well, sucks to be you" to everyone else, but we were told over and over how the only war that mattered was the one against the White Walkers, and it turned out into a rough night for the northeners at Winterfell. We were promised World War II because people didn't heed the signs, and Hitler got shanked the moment he invaded Poland instead.

I wouldn't call it a rough night.  They got their asses severely handed to them and barely won, only because of Arya's last second heroics.  The entire battle plan went to shit and NOTHING went right for them.  They lost a handful of major characters and thousands of minor ones, as evident by the funeral pyres. 

This wasn't going to be a long, protracted war like Robb Stark & Stannis vs. The Lannisters in Seasons 2/3, with multiple battles spread out over Westeros.  This was a last stand - Jon even said as much.  "We'll make our stand at Winterfell."   A small army against a massive army.  One battle, winner take all.

[Adami]

I have my own thoughts about how the Night King could have been handled.

Mostly it's returning him (and his army) to that of an existential dread that can't actually be dealt with. If he is a metaphor for something like global warming, I say stick with that. How do we deal with a threat like that? Band together to continuously deal with it. Not actually eliminate it, but make sure we are always working together to not allow it to return. So push the king back. Work together and make sure we HAVE to be united to keep him at bay at all times.

That's just me. I don't expect the show to go that route, so the actual conclusion, while sloppy, didn't bug me a whole lot.

[The Walrus]

On my way to Chicago last night me and my buddy decided we would have loved if the NK never personally left the land of always winter, or he would at least revive Viserion and then schlep off back to his ice castle and warg into the dragon. Then they would either kill the dragon while the NK was trapped in him, or they would barely win the battle and then have to trek through the most dangerous snow lands to find and defeat the evil for good...

[RuRoRul]

Oh, and if anyone feels up for a good read... I know that the moment that you compare Game of Thrones to Shakespeare is the moment when you have to take a breath of fresh air, go out for a walk and watch other series or read other books, but this is a very nice and detailed comparison between why we feel for MacBeth, and why the whole Dany fiasco was soooo rushed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/brdj7x/spoilers_extended_why_daenerys_season_8_plotline/

Meh, the writeup of MacBeth was interesting but I didn't find the whole post compelling or convincing, since it seems more like the description of Daenerys' story feels like it's lacking or blatantly wrong to the point of being a strawman for an easier comparison, which shouldn't be necessary. It probably is a good comparison but I shouldn't need to actively fail to analyse Game Of Thrones to conclude that it wasn't done as well. Like many of the recent takes from r/asoiaf it feels like analysis that's focused way too much on reducing the understanding of Game Of Thrones down (or even blatantly mischaracterising it) rather than revealing more. That (and the fact that criticism of the show is so focused on personal vitriol towards the actual showrunners) was made me dislike the direction of that subreddit even though it was the reason I first made a Reddit account 5 years ago and was always the first place I checked. Note even this post has to end with a D&D meme. I understand that's in part the show itself doesn't leave as much interesting to discuss but I'd say discussion I've read in this thread alone proves that it's not completely impossible.

If we're doing hot takes on the finale that I agree with, I found this article surprisingly good:
An apology to George R.R. Martin: ending Game of Thrones is really hard

[MirrorMask]

If we're doing hot takes on the finale that I agree with, I found this article surprisingly good:
An apology to George R.R. Martin: ending Game of Thrones is really hard

Yeah, very good indeed! I agree with the article. Also let's remember the situation poor George is in - everyone is concerned that he might die before he finishes the books. So if tomorrow he gets ran over by a bus, people won't be sad because he passed away - they'll be sad because he didn't finish the books. I can only imagine what it's like to be him.

Still, there could and should have been a compromise between "Show running for 12 seasons" (I agree with the article, it's unrealistic to take so many seasons for books 4 and 5, and to sign actors for so long) and rushing it all up in 6 final episodes. Two full seasons of 10 episodes should have already done wonders for the pacing.

[faizoff]

That was a good article indeed and it gave context to the mindset of the writers and show creators rather than taking shots at them.

I was also wondering what is the longest any show creator and showrunner/writer lasted without getting burnt out or having a huge dip in quality. Most examples I see tend to be in the 5-6 season range with great shows like Breaking Bad, The Wire, Sopranos, Lost, etc.. has there been longer running shows which have the same writing team from start to finish with this large scale and last for at least 8 continuous seasons?

[ariich]

Feels like the biggest thing people are complaining about is the pacing, and yeah it hasn't been good for a few seasons, but I could have overlooked that if I'd been excited by how the narrative arcs came together (or in reality didn't) at the end. Despite the drop in quality of writing and pacing since season 5, the show has still been really exciting and had some superb moments, and crucially until the final season still felt like the key narratives were building (mostly) coherently.

The thing I feel most disappointed by with the finale is how little of the build up ended up mattering to anything (apart from the climax of Dany's arc, which ironically is the thing that people seem most bothered by). The outcomes of the characters? I'm cool with that. Broadly happy endings for the Starks, Tyrion and Sam isn't what I expected but is nice. It just wasn't very exciting, like Adami there wasn't really anything that I emotionally connected to, and there's nothing really for us to discuss or interpret.

It's a real shame because even a flawed but thrilling end that brought lots of narrative arcs together would have made me want to watch it all again and enjoy how it all builds to the endgame, but right now I don't feel remotely inclined to and I've no idea if I ever will.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

https://www.polygon.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/19/18631713/game-of-thrones-prequel-new-show-cast-story-release-date-hbo

[Elite]

I was waiting for your thoughts, Adami! 

Earlier I said I wish each 3 episode arc was a full season or more on its own. What do you think of that?

That could have worked, one season dealing wtih the Night King while we see Cersei scheming in the south to build her army. The final season is then Dany's Turn and the torching of Kings Landing.  Obviously they would have had to add more plots to make a season worth of TV, but it could have been done and it might have worked better.  Definitely would have stood a better chance I think.

It's not as if there's nothing to write about in the show though. There's more than enough material in the books alone that they didn't use in the series.


Anyway; I think my biggest 'complaint' with the last season (and I can't comment on seasons 5-7, since I haven't seen them) is that compared to Season 1-4 it feels as if something's missing. And I think what's missing is the feeling of there being a bigger world out there. While obviously Season 1-4 focus on the main characters, new stuff gets added constantly and the locations and world te series is set in feels huge, with every episode exploring new terrain, meeting random other people etc. etc. The last season focussed on the main characters only and we didn't really see anything of the world the show is set in. And I think that sense of wonder and excitement is missing.

[Cyclopssss]

Pretty much fine with all of the endings. Even predicted Tyrion would remove the Handpin and throw it away. I actually WAS shocked at the stabbing scene. What I disliked most was the (imo) rather misplaced attempt at lightheartedness in the 'High Councel' scene. With all that went before (or after) that felt rather thrown together for me. The rest was acted, shot, and played out beautifully. Loved Arya's story arc and Sansa's. Bran as King ?  Meh.

Well, all in all, kudo's to one of the greatest shows ever produced on television.

[Grappler]

Anyway; I think my biggest 'complaint' with the last season (and I can't comment on seasons 5-7, since I haven't seen them) is that compared to Season 1-4 it feels as if something's missing. And I think what's missing is the feeling of there being a bigger world out there. While obviously Season 1-4 focus on the main characters, new stuff gets added constantly and the locations and world te series is set in feels huge, with every episode exploring new terrain, meeting random other people etc. etc. The last season focussed on the main characters only and we didn't really see anything of the world the show is set in. And I think that sense of wonder and excitement is missing.

Because the stories all converged in Westeros and the main characters were all together in one or two locations for most of the last season - either Winterfell or Kings Landing.  There was zero need for everyone to be spread out, since it was the endgame. 

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, on one hand I agree, but... it was no longer the game of thrones, it was just Starks + Dany versus the Lannisters. There were no longer alliances, secondary characters that could even mentioned, just the very top players and no one else. As soon as the figurehead of an house died, it's like his entire kingdom ceased to exist with no pretenders, no new lieges or lords appointed, nothing like that.

Cersei was "losing enemies by the hour" - the examples presented were Yara, already sworn to Dany, and "the new prince of Dorne", an unnamed character that didn't speak in the finale. Dany 20 seconds later replies that her "enemies" grow stronger - which are your enemies, plural? it's just Cersei sitting on the throne.

There's nothing between Winterfell and King's Landing, not even the Twins where, you know, Edmure is kept in a cell even after the entire massacre of the Freys. What happens once the Tyrells are gone? who knows. What happened to the seat of House Baratheon? who knows. How is the population of King's Landing reacting to Cersei? are they actively oppressed as in curfew, insane taxes, nazi-like surveillance in the streets? who knows. What do they think of the bombing of the Vatican with the Pope and the beloved Queen inside? are they going along with the excuse that it was a tragic accident, as Cersei told Mycroft Holmes from the Iron Bank? do they hate Cersei but are powerless to revolt? who knows.

There's nothing else except the Starks and Dany (plus whatever the plot decides her remaining army is) and Cersei with Qyburn at his side in King's Landing.

[ariich]

Yeah, on one hand I agree, but... it was no longer the game of thrones, it was just Starks + Dany versus the Lannisters. There were no longer alliances, secondary characters that could even mentioned, just the very top players and no one else. As soon as the figurehead of an house died, it's like his entire kingdom ceased to exist with no pretenders, no new lieges or lords appointed, nothing like that.

Cersei was "losing enemies by the hour" - the examples presented were Yara, already sworn to Dany, and "the new prince of Dorne", an unnamed character that didn't speak in the finale. Dany 20 seconds later replies that her "enemies" grow stronger - which are your enemies, plural? it's just Cersei sitting on the throne.

There's nothing between Winterfell and King's Landing, not even the Twins where, you know, Edmure is kept in a cell even after the entire massacre of the Freys. What happens once the Tyrells are gone? who knows. What happened to the seat of House Baratheon? who knows. How is the population of King's Landing reacting to Cersei? are they actively oppressed as in curfew, insane taxes, nazi-like surveillance in the streets? who knows. What do they think of the bombing of the Vatican with the Pope and the beloved Queen inside? are they going along with the excuse that it was a tragic accident, as Cersei told Mycroft Holmes from the Iron Bank? do they hate Cersei but are powerless to revolt? who knows.

There's nothing else except the Starks and Dany (plus whatever the plot decides her remaining army is) and Cersei with Qyburn at his side in King's Landing.

I agree with this, and the big focus on the population of King's Landing is one of the things I loved about episode 5.

[MoraWintersoul]

For book readers: is it true that Naath, the place where Missandei comes from and where the Unsullied will retire to, has some kind of deadly butterflies to which only the natives are immune, and so the show in telling us that Greyworm and the Unsullied go to Naath, they basically told us, maybe without even realizing it or actually knowing it, that they're all gonna die?

And since we're talking about the books.... as I previously said, I didn't read the books, but I've read a lot about the books, and so I know that in the far, far east there's a city called Assai by the Shadow which is shrouded in eternal darkness and that it's super mysterious and nobody really knows what happens there, Melisandre comes from there and all sort of weird magical shit is supposed to go down there.

Regardless of the impact it will have in the books, I love the idea of having a super hidden mystery in a story just for the sake of it, an "easter egg" of sort - I like to think that whatever goes down in Assai, it's more important and crazy and interesting than anything that happens in Westeros, and that George RR Martin imagined it but will never address it properly in the books just because he could. 

Yes and yes! Loads of weird shit happens east of Westeros. Loads of material for theory-crafting as well: if googling the mystery of the oily black stones or the doom of Valyria doesn't get you interested in reading the books, nothing will!

Tbh when Melisandre went off and announced her comeback, I thought she would return to the Battle for Winterfell with a bunch of amazing red priests. Now that half of Westeros is unrepresented and barren in season 8, guess that's the least of everything I would end up lacking

[Elite]

Yeah, on one hand I agree, but... it was no longer the game of thrones, it was just Starks + Dany versus the Lannisters. There were no longer alliances, secondary characters that could even mentioned, just the very top players and no one else. As soon as the figurehead of an house died, it's like his entire kingdom ceased to exist with no pretenders, no new lieges or lords appointed, nothing like that.

Cersei was "losing enemies by the hour" - the examples presented were Yara, already sworn to Dany, and "the new prince of Dorne", an unnamed character that didn't speak in the finale. Dany 20 seconds later replies that her "enemies" grow stronger - which are your enemies, plural? it's just Cersei sitting on the throne.

There's nothing between Winterfell and King's Landing, not even the Twins where, you know, Edmure is kept in a cell even after the entire massacre of the Freys. What happens once the Tyrells are gone? who knows. What happened to the seat of House Baratheon? who knows. How is the population of King's Landing reacting to Cersei? are they actively oppressed as in curfew, insane taxes, nazi-like surveillance in the streets? who knows. What do they think of the bombing of the Vatican with the Pope and the beloved Queen inside? are they going along with the excuse that it was a tragic accident, as Cersei told Mycroft Holmes from the Iron Bank? do they hate Cersei but are powerless to revolt? who knows.

There's nothing else except the Starks and Dany (plus whatever the plot decides her remaining army is) and Cersei with Qyburn at his side in King's Landing.

You essentially said what I meant but better worded with actual examples. Thanks!

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, but that's the only way it could really turn out.  As the stakes get higher, and other rivals or allies are eliminated, there is only so much room for other players to have.  How much more scheming could they show?  With whom could it take place?

Yes the show changed, but there was no way around it eventually changing.  Eventually the schemes and plans have to go from the planning stage to the action stage.  Otherwise, the story could never progress to the end.

I get the frustration, but I'm really not sure how else it could feasibly have been done.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, I hear you. I don't know how to solve it. Maybe with a little minimal of world building, a voiceover with scenes intertwined when battle plans are discussed and someone says "words of our bravery reached the Stormlands, now their new liege is pledged to us" (cue to a scene of random armored guy), "Dorne has pledged to fight for us" and you see some armies outside King's Landing, some namedropping of the surviving houses of the North, since Edmure shows up in the finale (only to be the butt of a joke  ) have Jon casually mention in passing that stuff happened in the Riverlands and so they gained Edmure and all the soldiers that surrended in the siege led by Jaimie.... something, anything to remind people that yes, these are our protagonists, but there are also those other houses and that they are loyal to Cersei / rebelling against her for legitimate reasons, "even though Daenerys burned the Tarlys the Reach doesn't forget the massacre at the Sept of Baelor, so now that they have a legitimate army to back, they declared against the crown", stuff like that.

[gmillerdrake]

Yeah, but that's the only way it could really turn out.  As the stakes get higher, and other rivals or allies are eliminated, there is only so much room for other players to have.  How much more scheming could they show?  With whom could it take place?

Yes the show changed, but there was no way around it eventually changing.  Eventually the schemes and plans have to go from the planning stage to the action stage.  Otherwise, the story could never progress to the end.

I get the frustration, but I'm really not sure how else it could feasibly have been done.

Agreed. I've said it earlier but honestly the only thing I'd have liked to see would have been them sticking to the format of (10) episodes per season which would have allowed them to cultivate Dany's path to destruction more....and even given them a chance to maybe reveal more about the Night King should they have wanted to.

I'm perfectly fine with the Night King storyline and how it ended.....and am fine with how everything happened. But for as much as I love the show and have defended it I don't think it's a slight to say that a few more episodes even telling the exact same story would have done it a bit more justice.

[kaos2900]

Yeah, but that's the only way it could really turn out.  As the stakes get higher, and other rivals or allies are eliminated, there is only so much room for other players to have.  How much more scheming could they show?  With whom could it take place?

Yes the show changed, but there was no way around it eventually changing.  Eventually the schemes and plans have to go from the planning stage to the action stage.  Otherwise, the story could never progress to the end.

I get the frustration, but I'm really not sure how else it could feasibly have been done.

Agreed. I've said it earlier but honestly the only thing I'd have liked to see would have been them sticking to the format of (10) episodes per season which would have allowed them to cultivate Dany's path to destruction more....and even given them a chance to maybe reveal more about the Night King should they have wanted to.

I'm perfectly fine with the Night King storyline and how it ended.....and am fine with how everything happened. But for as much as I love the show and have defended it I don't think it's a slight to say that a few more episodes even telling the exact same story would have done it a bit more justice.

How dare you guys use logic and common sense. 

Seriously though, I agree 100%. The rage from the "fans" against this last season is one of the dumbest things I've ever witnessed.

[The Walrus]

Well hold on now. Just because someone rages against shitty writing doesn't mean they aren't fans. This season objectively has had lower quality writing and pacing than the last seasons but everything else was absolutely stellar (and, complaints about some of the writing and questionable events aside, I still enjoyed the HELL out of season 8). You can absolutely be a fan of something and savage it at the same time. God knows I do it with my favorite bands. I do think the hate is out of this world and way blown out of proportion, but at its core the complaints about the writing and pacing are valid, it's okay to acknowledge that.

[Evermind]

I do think the hate is out of this world and way blown out of proportion, but at its core the complaints about the writing and pacing are valid, it's okay to acknowledge that.

Well said.

I will also say this: while a lot of people are being childish about this season, it's also kind of weird to throw phrases like "one of the dumbest things I've ever witnessed". Maybe a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon of hatred because apparently it's fashionable to hate the show now, yeah, but from the reactions I saw, a fair amount of people are disappointed with this season (and S7 in retrospect). A lot of my friends who I consider reasonable people said this season wasn't up to par with the first six. There's definitely a disquiet among the fans. And the people who were already disappointed by the show when it passed the book territory and started to make questionable writing decisions now add their previously ignored opinions to the people who are disappointed with this season, basically just fanning the flames and turning it into its own shitshow.

It's also very tempting sometimes to post your opinion about something you dislike, and, depending on the person, I guess, quite difficult to hold your opinion back. That's coming from the person who thought the show started to get shitty with S5 and sure, I posted long rants in this very thread back then. And while at one point I stopped watching and said "hey, this isn't worth it, just let the people enjoy the show and keep your opinion to yourself", I can tell you I've probably written more than 20 posts for this thread in the last few years about the show's decisions (most of them negative) after watching a few scenes from it (Arya's ninja-fight with Waif—which was fucking toned down and still was ridiculous as hell, and I just remembered I watched S6 because of that—Euron portrayal, the "capture a wight" plot and so on) and then closed the browser tab without hitting the Post button. In fact, I nearly scrapped this post, but now that the show is over, I guess I've allowed myself to post one more time in here in memory of the good times.

[hefdaddy42]

Well hold on now. Just because someone rages against shitty writing doesn't mean they aren't fans. This season objectively has had lower quality writing and pacing than the last seasons but everything else was absolutely stellar (and, complaints about some of the writing and questionable events aside, I still enjoyed the HELL out of season 8).

First, none of this is objective.

Second, "lower quality writing" (which I will give you) does not equal "shitty writing".  This show has never been graced with shitty writing.  If you think it has, I have many more shows to which I could introduce you.

[Adami]

Well hold on now. Just because someone rages against shitty writing doesn't mean they aren't fans. This season objectively has had lower quality writing and pacing than the last seasons but everything else was absolutely stellar (and, complaints about some of the writing and questionable events aside, I still enjoyed the HELL out of season 8).

First, none of this is objective.

Second, "lower quality writing" (which I will give you) does not equal "shitty writing".  This show has never been graced with shitty writing.  If you think it has, I have many more shows to which I could introduce you.

I would definitely say that this show has (for the last few seasons, but more so on season 8) has been graced with lazy writing. Terrible? Nah. Lazy without any exception? Nah. But overall lazy? Yup.

Objectively? No. I object to that.

And calling it lazy or whatever doesn't mean nothing does it worse. I can call Fazoli's terrible Italian food while recognizing that Chef Boyardee is a thing.

[The Walrus]

Yeah Adami kind of beat me to it. Maybe I went a bit far with 'objectively' but honestly there are a lot of places with holes in the writing. Hell even the cast pushed back on a lot of the writing and the pace of it. That's all. I have zero issues with everything else, honestly, it's just the writing and pacing of it all. Cramming 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag requires you to dumb things down. I still really, really liked season 8, don't overlook that. But the fact that other shows had bad writing does not excuse another series' writing problems.

For example, out of everything Euron said the last 2 seasons, my favorite thing he ever did was when he saw Jaime struggling for his sword, and he just hung his head down like, "Oh FFS are you kidding me?" 

Also I might still be just a wee bit salty over the Night King.