The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[gzarruk]

The thing about his solo album is that it's intentionally all 4/4, verse/chorus/solo 3 minute songs kind of stuff. He only goes wild during the guitar solo sections which apparently were first "written" on the drums and then doubled on guitar by Gus G.

I get what Max means, because this is not an accurate representation of the kind of musician Mike M is or the full extent of his abilities; specially considering he comes from being the drummer for DT, Vai and Annihilator, among other stuff. Even the genere, hard rock/not-so-crazy metal, isn't what he's mostly known for.

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that this was written over the course of a few years with the goal of doing something completely different to what he was doing at the time with DT (he said so a while ago in an interview), so it was never meant to be "this is my new musical direction after DT", but rather something complimentary to his main thing. Everything about the album was finished before the band replaced him. Actually, I wish I had a physical copy of it just to see if he thanked his "Dream Theater bandmates" in the liner notes or not

I initially didn't like it at first either, specially coming after something like A View, but once you understand why it is the way it is, it's actually not bad at all.

Also, as a fun fact, apparently Dino Jelusick was going to sing on the album but couldn't do it because of his legal issues with Frontiers back then.

[Adami]

Album wasn't bad. Had a kind of 80s vibe which I dug. Vocalist had a great voice. But the songs were largely forgettable. Enjoyable but forgettable.

[Max Kuehnau]

you had to get that kind of impression (it being inspired by 1980s production) since MM's drums sound as massive as they do (which is great btw). But now you see why I'm not impressed by it to say the least.

[Adami]

I mean, given what you've described and what you look for/value in music, then sure. None of that bothered me. It just felt forgettable. Needed more character to it.

[hefdaddy42]

Enjoyable but forgettable.

That's how it felt to me, as well.

[Trav]

forgettable.

This.

[Stadler]

I forgot; what are we talking about here?

[Zydar]

[hefdaddy42]

Comment to bring this thread back to the top, since it was actually current this year

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

New Genie content today:

"This video shows me playing the end of AVFTTOTW.  I give commentary after the first music clip. Some viewers simply want to listen and not necessarily know anything about time signatures. Yet when people's body movements coincide with music, magic happens. Others who either want to play this, or just feel a different kind of joy, can indeed learn to.  I'm showing the benefit of understanding musical phrases like this, but more, I'm leading to a very misunderstood and contested point: that a certain kind of counting makes one feel "free," not burdened. I'm referring to the philosophies and Cognitive Science based methods of Rhythm Knowledge. These take us through what seems like a House of Mirrors to a place of pretty incredible music joy"

[TAC]

That's a great video, and I'm glad he's using his DT footage. He was an absolute joy to have in this band, and I'm gonna miss him.


I also want to say that for anyone who skipped the first leg of that tour, the outro to AVFTTOTW was AMAZING!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

More new Genie content! He posted the View drums only track a while ago but now you can watch and hear him do it with the album music minus the drums.

[ReaperKK]

I'm so happy he is posting this content.

[goo-goo]

Album wasn't bad. Had a kind of 80s vibe which I dug. Vocalist had a great voice. But the songs were largely forgettable. Enjoyable but forgettable.

Interstiny enough, Jen Majura is a phenomenal guitar player. Actually, she is known more for her playing than singing. She just finished a tour with Travis Larson (another guitar player in the US West coast IIRC).

[Adami]

Interstiny enough, Jen Majura is a phenomenal guitar player. Actually, she is known more for her playing than singing. She just finished a tour with Travis Larson (another guitar player in the US West coast IIRC).

Indeed. I knew her first from her guitar playing with evanescence. Not necessarily a band to show off any playing, but still.

[MirrorMask]

I knew her when she tagged along to Rage and their tours, with the occasional vocal guest spot, 'cause at the time she was with Victor Smolski, then Rage's guitarist

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Mike just posted a clip of a splendidly awesome part he plays in OTBOA. At 0:13 he shows that he plays the back beat in the left hand while at the same time matching the kicks to the guitar/bass and matching the cymbals in the right hand to Jordan's parts. I remember hearing this over 10 years ago and thinking 'this new drummer thing is going to be good.'

[Adami]

I agree. That was a super cool thing he did. I guess I just got bored of that being his main thing. Doubling up the other instruments.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I agree. That was a super cool thing he did. I guess I just got bored of that being his main thing. Doubling up the other instruments.

Portnoy is also a good orchestrator and often matches the other instruments in his parts, albeit to a less elaborate/technical degree. I was just listening to SC this week and you can hear him taking this approach all over the album. That's probably why I like them both

[Kocak]

I still feel that the DT camp botched his farewell. He deserved more than a footnote within the announcement of MP.

[TAC]

I still feel that the DT camp botched his farewell. He deserved more than a footnote within the announcement of MP.

A-fucking-men.

[gzarruk]

I still feel that the DT camp botched his farewell. He deserved more than a footnote within the announcement of MP.

Oh, most definitely. But I don't think they care(d) too much about it anyway and promoting the nostalgia was more important. This is a business after all and MP back = $$$ for a few reasons that everybody knows.

FWIW, it could've been handled worse as well.

[Setlist Scotty]

I still feel that the DT camp botched his farewell. He deserved more than a footnote within the announcement of MP.

What more should they have done?

[Stadler]

Yeah, I'm kind of with Scotty on this; what more would have been appropriate? 

"Nah, man, don't go yet; we'll put the Portnoy thing on hold and do one more album and tour in your honor!"   

[WilliamMunny]

Oh, most definitely. But I don't think they care(d) too much about it anyway and promoting the nostalgia was more important. This is a business after all and MP back = $$$ for a few reasons that everybody knows.

FWIW, it could've been handled worse as well.

This is where I am at.

As someone who has literally fired/terminated/let go/[insert term here] hundreds of people, it's NEVER easy. Sure, there's a matter of decorum that one would hope is always observed (I feel like the band succeeded here), but both DT and MM could've opted for a much more petty route.

Fortunately, everyone involved was/is a class act.

[devieira73]

I also think the parties handled the situation appropriately. It wouldn't make much sense DT being extremely complimentary to MM and dismiss him from his job at the same time.
Today I saw a really cool drum cam video of Awaken the Master. Always amazing to see his precision and how well thought out are his drum parts:
https://youtu.be/sGEJ6Ti0Spg?si=rIMR1b1CRertvigX

[brakkum]

Today I saw a really cool drum cam video of Awaken the Master. Always amazing to see his precision and how well thought out are his drum parts:
https://youtu.be/sGEJ6Ti0Spg?si=rIMR1b1CRertvigX

Wow, I know some jazz drummers will prefer the click on 2 and 4, but with prog rock this is bananas to not have click on every downbeat to me

[gzarruk]

Wow, I know some jazz drummers will prefer the click on 2 and 4, but with prog rock this is bananas to not have click on every downbeat to me

Mike posted about it, the click was added by the Moises app (AI) and it's not the actual click he used for playing live

[brakkum]

Mike posted about it, the click was added by the Moises app (AI) and it's not the actual click he used for playing live

Oh thank god, I was starting to think he was a legitimate robot

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I still feel that the DT camp botched his farewell. He deserved more than a footnote within the announcement of MP.

Mixed feelings about it because we don't know what exactly happened though the occasional detail has dropped. The band obviously does not want to talk about it. They want to pitch the entire situation as MP is returning and in an ideal world - for them - will say nothing about how it is tied to MM departing. Given that, I guess I can understand why they would say as little about it as possible.

What I think you are getting at - and pls correct me if I am wrong - is a fundamental feeling of unfairness because most people don't want to see another human being lose his/her job out of the blue due to uncontrollable circumstances, particularly when they're doing an excellent job with the responsibilities they've been given. I just don't know what else DT could do once they made the decision but I get your vibe. The guy busted his ass puts on top notch energetic performances, by all accounts was super nice and engaging to the fans, helped them win a Grammy, and at the end of all of it he gets a surprise call telling him he is being replaced (and by the wall most of the complaints about the band are related to things he does not directly control). It happens in business but yeah, it feels like the send off was flat...but again, what else could they realistically do?

[Stadler]

Mixed feelings about it because we don't know what exactly happened though the occasional detail has dropped. The band obviously does not want to talk about it. They want to pitch the entire situation as MP is returning and in an ideal world - for them - will say nothing about how it is tied to MM departing. Given that, I guess I can understand why they would say as little about it as possible.

What I think you are getting at - and pls correct me if I am wrong - is a fundamental feeling of unfairness because most people don't want to see another human being lose his/her job out of the blue due to uncontrollable circumstances, particularly when they're doing an excellent job with the responsibilities they've been given. I just don't know what else DT could do once they made the decision but I get your vibe. The guy busted his ass puts on top notch energetic performances, by all accounts was super nice and engaging to the fans, helped them win a Grammy, and at the end of all of it he gets a surprise call telling him he is being replaced (and by the wall most of the complaints about the band are related to things he does not directly control). It happens in business but yeah, it feels like the send off was flat...but again, what else could they realistically do?

We've gone over this before though: LOT of assumptions in that post that we as outsiders cannot confirm or refute:
 - another human being lose his/her job out of the blue due to uncontrollable circumstances: I'm of the opinion that when you take a gig replacing a crucial member of a band, no less a FOUNDING member, you have to account for the fact a reunion is not just possibly, but likely.
 - particularly when they're doing an excellent job with the responsibilities they've been given. I have no reason to think he hasn't, but this goes to "we don't know".  We don't.  Maybe this idea that 'they should have done better by him' was in fact that they DID to better by him by not airing dirty laundry. He can be the nicest guy in the world, he could be the greatest drummer in the world, but the relationship just might not be working.  Bruce Kulick.  Ian Gillan in Sabbath.
 -  The guy busted his ass puts on top notch energetic performances, by all accounts was super nice and engaging to the fans, helped them win a Grammy: all can be true and yet not be a good fit for where the band wants to go.
 - and at the end of all of it he gets a surprise call telling him he is being replaced Well, I think we have some evidence that the CALL ITSELF was a surprise, but I don't think that's a wholly undisputed fact, and I go back to above, where if you take the position of a FAMILY MEMBER, you have to have some awareness, some ability to read the room.
 - It happens in business but yeah, it feels like the send off was flat...but again, what else could they realistically do? It happens in business, but it happens in family too; I think we're downplaying the role that Mike P. and his wife and kids have played in the dynamic of the Dream Theater family. I'm not saying this is the case, but we have zero idea if in fact this was actually Marlene, Rena and Lisa saying to John, John and Mike "figure it out assholes; you guys are brothers, you guys are family and we only get a certain number of trips around the sun, so...well, FIGURE IT OUT." I'm sorry, but if Mangini claims to be ignorant of all of this I don't really feel that bad for him. If he was that tight, that close to the rest of the band that they owe him something, then he was close enough to see this dynamic first hand and to know this was a possibility.

My two cents.  I think it was handled about as well as any of these things were, and we have examples:   Kiss, Deep Purple, Maiden, Van Halen (sort of), Sabbath (multiple times), Yes (multiple times), UFO, Genesis, King Crimson...

[MoraWintersoul]

Of course he knew MP's position in the band as a founder, but he also knew MP left the band impulsively on rocky terms, taking shots at DT every now and then in the press, having bad blood with James and having DT themselves saying that this was their last lineup several times. Did he know these terms were reverting in the past couple of years - he probably did. But the Mike Mangini who joined the band and worked with them on the first three-four albums and tours probably felt like he wasn't just warming MP's seat no matter what he says about it now.

[Schurftkut]

Mangini didn't claim to be oblivious to MP working with John and Jordan again, coming to a show and making amends with James etc.. He literally said something about the situation leading up to the reveal being obvious that MP was trying to get back

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

We've gone over this before though: LOT of assumptions in that post that we as outsiders cannot confirm or refute:
 - another human being lose his/her job out of the blue due to uncontrollable circumstances: I'm of the opinion that when you take a gig replacing a crucial member of a band, no less a FOUNDING member, you have to account for the fact a reunion is not just possibly, but likely.
 - particularly when they're doing an excellent job with the responsibilities they've been given. I have no reason to think he hasn't, but this goes to "we don't know".  We don't.  Maybe this idea that 'they should have done better by him' was in fact that they DID to better by him by not airing dirty laundry. He can be the nicest guy in the world, he could be the greatest drummer in the world, but the relationship just might not be working.  Bruce Kulick.  Ian Gillan in Sabbath.
 -  The guy busted his ass puts on top notch energetic performances, by all accounts was super nice and engaging to the fans, helped them win a Grammy: all can be true and yet not be a good fit for where the band wants to go.
 - and at the end of all of it he gets a surprise call telling him he is being replaced Well, I think we have some evidence that the CALL ITSELF was a surprise, but I don't think that's a wholly undisputed fact, and I go back to above, where if you take the position of a FAMILY MEMBER, you have to have some awareness, some ability to read the room.
 - It happens in business but yeah, it feels like the send off was flat...but again, what else could they realistically do? It happens in business, but it happens in family too; I think we're downplaying the role that Mike P. and his wife and kids have played in the dynamic of the Dream Theater family. I'm not saying this is the case, but we have zero idea if in fact this was actually Marlene, Rena and Lisa saying to John, John and Mike "figure it out assholes; you guys are brothers, you guys are family and we only get a certain number of trips around the sun, so...well, FIGURE IT OUT." I'm sorry, but if Mangini claims to be ignorant of all of this I don't really feel that bad for him. If he was that tight, that close to the rest of the band that they owe him something, then he was close enough to see this dynamic first hand and to know this was a possibility.

My two cents.  I think it was handled about as well as any of these things were, and we have examples:  Kiss, Deep Purple, Maiden, Van Halen (sort of), Sabbath (multiple times), Yes (multiple times), UFO, Genesis, King Crimson...

I really cannot comment on the other examples because while I am familiar with all the replacements in the bands you mention, I don't have background knowledge on their stories.

There are not as many assumptions in my post as you make it out to be, except that I take most of what they say at face value. So I guess the primary assumption is that they're telling the truth when they speak and that they're not trying to deceive anyone. Everything else is literally based on something a band member has said.

- another human being lose his/her job out of the blue due to uncontrollable circumstances: I'm of the opinion that when you take a gig replacing a crucial member of a band, no less a FOUNDING member, you have to account for the fact a reunion is not just possibly, but likely.
Sure - but that does not make Mangini's circumstances any more or less controllable.

- particularly when they're doing an excellent job with the responsibilities they've been given. I have no reason to think he hasn't, but this goes to "we don't know".  We don't.  Maybe this idea that 'they should have done better by him' was in fact that they DID to better by him by not airing dirty laundry. He can be the nicest guy in the world, he could be the greatest drummer in the world, but the relationship just might not be working.  Bruce Kulick.  Ian Gillan in Sabbath. How about this: Because I am genuinely curious, I asked JP directly to his face if the drummer change was because he was unhappy about something. His response could not have been more confident and clear: "not at all." He did not answer the other question I asked him in such a matter-of-fact manner. Plus you would think that at some point over the last 13 years if his performance was suffering someone would have noticed in on record, off record, at the venue. So, unless there is some reason to believe this was performance related the burden is greater on someone claiming it is or basically saying 'maybe.maybe not.' If we searched for all the times the band sung MM's praises over the years it would seem extremely odd to learn that they actually weren't all that happy with his performance, so I think we can put that possibility to bed.

- and at the end of all of it he gets a surprise call telling him he is being replaced Well, I think we have some evidence that the CALL ITSELF was a surprise, but I don't think that's a wholly undisputed fact, and I go back to above, where if you take the position of a FAMILY MEMBER, you have to have some awareness, some ability to read the room.  Given Mangini has publicly commented on this, that suffices to settle it for me unless someone in the band would like to state otherwise or there is some other affirmative reason to believe Mangini is not describing the situation accurately. Since we don't have an alternative statement from someone who was there at this point it is actually undisputed at present. Saying that he has to have the ability to read the room doesn't really change that, in addition to being presumptuous that the room was ripe for being read although what he may have read was a public statement from John Petrucci urging everyone NOT to make assumptions about a DT-MP reunion not long before it actually happened. (https://blabbermouth.net/news/john-petrucci-shuts-down-fan-speculation-about-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-ive-been-very-vocal-about-this). He also may have read an interview or remembered a phone call in which JP told him  'Hey, don't take this as anything other than what it is. It's just Mike playing on my solo album. It's a fun project, it doesn't mean anything else other than that. (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/dream_theaters_john_petrucci_talks_how_mike_mangini_reacted_to_mike_portnoy_reunion_addresses_concerns_he_had_about_album.html)

- It happens in business but yeah, it feels like the send off was flat...but again, what else could they realistically do? It happens in business, but it happens in family too; I think we're downplaying the role that Mike P. and his wife and kids have played in the dynamic of the Dream Theater family. I'm not saying this is the case, but we have zero idea if in fact this was actually Marlene, Rena and Lisa saying to John, John and Mike "figure it out assholes; you guys are brothers, you guys are family and we only get a certain number of trips around the sun, so...well, FIGURE IT OUT." I'm sorry, but if Mangini claims to be ignorant of all of this I don't really feel that bad for him. If he was that tight, that close to the rest of the band that they owe him something, then he was close enough to see this dynamic first hand and to know this was a possibility. I am not downplaying it. I do think it's interesting you view uncontested public statements from people who were there as insufficient to resolve total ambiguity over high level details of what happened, but you're entirely comfortable presuming there was something specific he should have seen in JP to know this was going to happen. 

[Stadler]

Of course he knew MP's position in the band as a founder, but he also knew MP left the band impulsively on rocky terms, taking shots at DT every now and then in the press, having bad blood with James and having DT themselves saying that this was their last lineup several times. Did he know these terms were reverting in the past couple of years - he probably did. But the Mike Mangini who joined the band and worked with them on the first three-four albums and tours probably felt like he wasn't just warming MP's seat no matter what he says about it now.

I hear you, I do.  But I'm saying that independent of what is said outright, history shows that except for one band - ONE (The Beatles) - other than original members (or classic members), no position is sacred.  Mike M. is enough of a student of music to know that.