Shouldn't DT be more popular than they are?

[SnakeEyes]

Now, I'm not saying that as a fan at all.  I'm saying from a factual point of view.  With Black Clouds, they made #6 (higher if it weren't for Michael Jackson, damn it!) and #1 in Europe.  That's pretty frigging huge.  So, why AREN'T they on Conan or SNL or any of the other shows that spotlight popular bands?  I really, honestly don't get it.  

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I wanted to know the same thing!

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Well, they did make #6 in the US and #1 in Europe, but only for one week. After that they plummeted off the charts again. Most of the other artists stay in the charts for a much longer period of time.

And even if they were a bit more popular, the general public still doesn't know them. And they probably never will either, because the music isn't accessible enough. The directors of the shows tend to invite artists that get them lots of viewers. Bands that no-one has ever heard of won't get them many viewers.

[wolfking]

DT are not played on the radio or music television.

[darkshade]

I always believed Black Clouds may have gotten a little more media attention had Michael Jackson not died that week 

[darkshade]

Now, I'm not saying that as a fan at all.  I'm saying from a factual point of view.  With Black Clouds, they made #6 (higher if it weren't for Michael Jackson, damn it!)

I think #6 is their actual chart position and they were #9 originally because of the explosion of sales due to people purchasing MJ albums after his death, but the charts excluded those albums because they were older albums.

[yeshaberto]

everytime I hear songs like IWBY, I wonder why it isn't getting radio play.  I understand the epics and actually the majority of their music, but some of their stuff seems like it would be "popular"

[wolfking]

Seems a little unfair to take the lack of mainstream success for DT out on Michael Jackson passing away.  Name of Rudess said it before, these sorts of bands enter the chart but immediately drop out the next week.  Even though they make the charts, the mainstream artists sell a ton more records.  Also as I said, lack of radio and television exposure.

[lordxizor]

Metal is a nitch music genre (though a fairly large one). Prog metal is a small nitch of that. If metal radio stations don't play DT, they have no hope of ever getting into the mainstream. The real question is: How has DT managed to stay so popular over the year without any mainstream media support?

[ZirconBlue]

everytime I hear songs like IWBY, I wonder why it isn't getting radio play. 

Because it's by some one-hit wonder band that no one cares about any more.  At least that's what radio program directors think.  If IWBY had been released by some new, unknown band, it would have had a good chance at becoming a hit song.  But, just about any band in any way tied to the the hair band era is going to have a much harder time getting any attention from radio. 

[FretMuppet]

everytime I hear songs like IWBY, I wonder why it isn't getting radio play. 

Because it's by some one-hit wonder band that no one cares about any more.  At least that's what radio program directors think.  If IWBY had been released by some new, unknown band, it would have had a good chance at becoming a hit song.  But, just about any band in any way tied to the the hair band era is going to have a much harder time getting any attention from radio. 

Yet they love repeating the same generic, mindless songs over and over again until it drives you crazy

[JasonScandopolous]

You have to realize that there are vast categories of music consumption which DT could never enter:

-Club/Dance music
-teenage girl music, listening with friends or by themselves
-Background music at a bar

That being said, there are other bands which can't get into any of the above three things, but which are more popular than DT.  This can improve if more people hear of DT, and if their song quality improves (non-embarrasing lyrics and vocal melodies, less filler in songs - I'm NOT saying short songs).

[Nick]

Well, they did make #6 in the US and #1 in Europe, but only for one week. After that they plummeted off the charts again. Most of the other artists stay in the charts for a much longer period of time.

And even if they were a bit more popular, the general public still doesn't know them. And they probably never will either, because the music isn't accessible enough. The directors of the shows tend to invite artists that get them lots of viewers. Bands that no-one has ever heard of won't get them many viewers.

This post is pretty spot on, especially about how DT only stays high on the charts for one week.

[black_biff_stadler]

I think a HUMONGOUS part of it has to do with JLB's vocals. He sounds nothing like any vocal style that has been popular since the early nineties. I think an overwhelming majority of non-musicians heavily judge new music not only by first considering the vocals but also placing a much higher priority on vocals once they've judged the other elements involved like the other instruments, lyrics, melodies, etc.

Since JLB will remind the average listener of glam singers before any other style folks are quick to write off DT since "only vocals matter." This is ironic considering the resurgence of retro-styled music that has succeeded in the charts since 2000:

60s: White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, (also any band in the history of recorded music whose name follows the old "The _____" <---insert plural noun format.)

70s: Wolfmother, The Darkness

80s: Find the closest radio and wait no more than 5 minutes.

[Elaitch]

Maybe they should, considering the amazing work they've done throught the years.

However, tracks like "I Walk Beside You", "These Walls", "You Not Me" and even "A Rite of Passage", that are clearly made to try to appeal to a broader audience, is among DTs weaker work and does not appreciate the musical quality that is in the band. Lets say "I Walk Beside You" was a hit on radio stations. It would in the end not make them break into the mainstream, because that song does not represent the actual body of the bands work... not by a long shot. So when the average person started to look into their amazing catalog of great music they'd be like "lol... no. 8+ minute songs? f**k that."

I'm actually glad that DT hasn't broken into the mainstream, and that they haven't tried more seriously to appeal to a mainstream audience, because I'm not sure the outcome would be positive, not for the band nor the musical quality. They would have to sacrifice much of what is DT is about today, lose a lot of their current loyal fans (many would probably start calling them "sell-outs"), and in the end it wouldn't turn out good since DT is, when it comes down to it, not a mainstream band.

One could wish that the general mainstream audience would appreciate the quality of songs like Octavarium and SDOIT, but you know... it requires active listening, and the music establishment today is more about melodies and singers rather than the actual body and quality of the music. And for DT to somewhat break into the mainstream, it would require an album full of "I Walk Beside You"'s, "These Walls"'s and "You Not Me"'s, and a world tour without like 90% of DTs current catalog. Would you like that? I doubt it.

[bosk1]

Well, they did make #6 in the US and #1 in Europe, but only for one week. After that they plummeted off the charts again. Most of the other artists stay in the charts for a much longer period of time.

And even if they were a bit more popular, the general public still doesn't know them. And they probably never will either, because the music isn't accessible enough. The directors of the shows tend to invite artists that get them lots of viewers. Bands that no-one has ever heard of won't get them many viewers.

This.  Besides, the majority of people simply aren't interested in the type of music DT makes.  So, no, they shouldn't really be much more popular than they are.

[wkiml]

I have mentioned this before in other threads

When 8VM was released the label sent a 3 song sampler (IWBY/These Walls and I believe Panic Attack) to various radio stations around the country. At the time I was a member of a listening board for a local radio station in NJ, whom promoted the band when they played the area via commercials and so forth, but never played any of the music on the station. I approached the Managing director at the time and asked you have the sampler why not give it a few spins on the station, his reply was " so if we  play IWBY and we start getting requests for other DT songs I forsee two problems.......1- where am I going to find a spot for an 8 minute song in the current rotation and 2- who is going to explain to the parent company why our listeners are tuning out in droves when we play DT ( his explanation was most radio listeners have an attention span of 3-4 minutes and will start changing the station when longer songs are played)  He had a bunch of surveys to support this.

[YtseJamittaja]

This #1 was in Finland so I'm happy  

[Shumpun]

It's funny because I am in my early 30s and almost nobody my age seems to know who Dream Theater is- yet it seems that a lot of younger people know them. I think it may have to do with the fact that they really started in the 90s when metal started to die. It seems that now, metal is healthier than ever- and maybe this is why younger metalheads know them but my generation does not. At the same time, bands like Tool are more well known within my generationit seems . This could be because Tool is not quite as technical as Dream Theater in terms of things like guitar solos and general musicianship so they play better on the radio. I love both bands but somehow Tool was able to tap more into the mainstream somehow. I think the moment Dream Theater went to Roadrunner their popularity seemed to increase but I could be perceiving it wrong.

[Nuance]

Maybe they should, considering the amazing work they've done throught the years.

However, tracks like "I Walk Beside You", "These Walls", "You Not Me" and even "A Rite of Passage", that are clearly made to try to appeal to a broader audience, is among DTs weaker work and does not appreciate the musical quality that is in the band. Lets say "I Walk Beside You" was a hit on radio stations. It would in the end not make them break into the mainstream, because that song does not represent the actual body of the bands work... not by a long shot. So when the average person started to look into their amazing catalog of great music they'd be like "lol... no. 8+ minute songs? f**k that."

I'm actually glad that DT hasn't broken into the mainstream, and that they haven't tried more seriously to appeal to a mainstream audience, because I'm not sure the outcome would be positive, not for the band nor the musical quality. They would have to sacrifice much of what is DT is about today, lose a lot of their current loyal fans (many would probably start calling them "sell-outs"), and in the end it wouldn't turn out good since DT is, when it comes down to it, not a mainstream band.

One could wish that the general mainstream audience would appreciate the quality of songs like Octavarium and SDOIT, but you know... it requires active listening, and the music establishment today is more about melodies and singers rather than the actual body and quality of the music. And for DT to somewhat break into the mainstream, it would require an album full of "I Walk Beside You"'s, "These Walls"'s and "You Not Me"'s, and a world tour without like 90% of DTs current catalog. Would you like that? I doubt it.

^This!

[TL]

Now, I'm not saying that as a fan at all.  I'm saying from a factual point of view.  With Black Clouds, they made #6 (higher if it weren't for Michael Jackson, damn it!)

I think #6 is their actual chart position and they were #9 originally because of the explosion of sales due to people purchasing MJ albums after his death, but the charts excluded those albums because they were older albums.

Michael Jackson's album sales that week didn't impact their chart position. All of his albums were ineligible for the Billboard 200 at that point; they only appeared on the Catalog Chart, which is specifically for older albums.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I'd say they are very popular for the type of music they play. They're the progressive metal act, as far as metal "mainstream" goes.

[LCArenas]

I'd say they are very popular for the type of music they play. They're the progressive metal act, as far as metal "mainstream" goes.

[ZeppelinDT]

Well, they did make #6 in the US and #1 in Europe, but only for one week. After that they plummeted off the charts again. Most of the other artists stay in the charts for a much longer period of time.

And even if they were a bit more popular, the general public still doesn't know them. And they probably never will either, because the music isn't accessible enough. The directors of the shows tend to invite artists that get them lots of viewers. Bands that no-one has ever heard of won't get them many viewers.

This post is pretty spot on, especially about how DT only stays high on the charts for one week.

I disagree.  I think for the most part these days, with VERY few exceptions (e.g., the Lady Gaga types) there's no such thing as "mainstream" popularity.  I think the best way to really judge a band's popularity is by how many people go out to see them live.  Radio airplay and music television are completely irrelevant, and anybody who thinks otherwise is stuck in the mid-90's.  And shows like Conan have PLENTY of bands that are far less popular/well-known than bands like Dream Theater.  For example, one that comes to mind is Margot & the Nuclear So & So's.  They played Conan a couple of years ago, but the last time I saw them live they were playing a 500 capacity venue that was half-empty.  Yet Dream Theater consistently sells out 5,000+ seat venues.

I think chart position really doesn't mean much either.  First of all, chart positions don't tell you how many albums sold... they just tell you how well any given album has done against other albums that particular week.  Also, there are so many outlets for distribution of music and a lot of them don't even count toward the Billboard statistics.  Not to mention the downloading component.

I think DT are phenomenally popular.  Maybe they aren't really too well-known amongst the "general public", but how many bands are?

[Bacong]

No, they shouldn't.

They play long songs. With time changes. Generally it's too complex and too long for the general, radio listening public.

To be popular you have to make short, simple songs. They don't really do that.

Also there's way better bands than DT who I'd like to see have even a fraction of the success DT has. They're not world beaters but they've sold a lot of records and they have a lot of fans. Whether or not they're in the mouths of the general public is irrelevant.

[Bacong]

I'd say they are very popular for the type of music they play. They're the progressive metal act, as far as metal "mainstream" goes.

They basically created the genre. Queensryche streamlined it and had great success in the late 80s/early 90s, but nobody plays the same type of music DT does and stays culturally relevant.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Too many people know about Dream Theater.

[Bacong]

Too many people know about Dream Theater.

lol

[ZeppelinDT]

To be popular you have to make short, simple songs. They don't really do that.

That's not true at all.  Unless by "popular" you mean "momentarily featured by the mass media", as opposed to the more common definition of "liked by a large number of people".

[Jaffa]

I'd put it this way:

The greatest death metal band in the world has a lot of fans, but does that make them mainstream?

Same issue here.  Dream Theater may be the kings of progressive metal, but progressive metal is a pretty small throne to rule from.  It's a subgenre, a small niche in the wide world of music.  Most people who love prog metal know Dream Theater, but the vast majority of music fans don't love with prog metal.  

[ZeppelinDT]

Are we talking about popularity or are we talking about mass media exposure?  Because those are two VERY different things.

[Dream Team]

I think a HUMONGOUS part of it has to do with JLB's vocals. He sounds nothing like any vocal style that has been popular since the early nineties. I think an overwhelming majority of non-musicians heavily judge new music not only by first considering the vocals but also placing a much higher priority on vocals once they've judged the other elements involved like the other instruments, lyrics, melodies, etc.

Since JLB will remind the average listener of glam singers before any other style folks are quick to write off DT since "only vocals matter." This is ironic considering the resurgence of retro-styled music that has succeeded in the charts since 2000:

60s: White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, (also any band in the history of recorded music whose name follows the old "The _____" <---insert plural noun format.)

70s: Wolfmother, The Darkness

80s: Find the closest radio and wait no more than 5 minutes.

The thing is though, none of the kids these days were alive in the 80s so they're unlikely to go "Oh I don't like this guy's singing, it's too much like the 80s". Maybe old farts my age MIGHT think that, but then again they should prefer it over today's talentless pseudo tough-guy harsh vocals.

[zepp-head]

Dream Theater is very big in their own right.  But let's get a little perspective, metal as a genre makes up less than 1% of overall music sales. 

Beyond that, there are a lot of confounding variables that take place.  To "make it big", you need the right people behind you with the right marketing plan in the right place at the right time.  I'm not saying it's all luck, but the fact is that you need a good plan and a solid approach with a little luck in there.  And that's if you have material that has the possibility of going mainstream.

Keep in mind, Dream Theater hasn't worked with an outside producer in 14 years, and I'm not sure about their management situation, but with the material they make I can't see them being much bigger than they are right now and that's fine.

[chknptpie]

I always believed Black Clouds may have gotten a little more media attention had Michael Jackson not died that week 

Is there more than 2 instances of releases being around largely followed events? September 11/Live Scenes and BCSL/MJ?

[Bacong]

To be popular you have to make short, simple songs. They don't really do that.

That's not true at all.  Unless by "popular" you mean "momentarily featured by the mass media", as opposed to the more common definition of "liked by a large number of people".

How do you judge popular? I thought this thread was pretty obviously about DT attaining "mass media" popularity.