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*OFFICIAL* A Dramatic Turn Of Events discussion thread -- **SPOILER ALERT!!!**

Started by bosk1, September 08, 2011, 07:55:30 AM

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theseoafs

Quote from: bosk1 on September 14, 2011, 03:53:53 PM
Nope.  The lyrics fit the song perfectly, as does Mike's delivery (other than the part I mentioned).
Uh, okay.

Scard

I might be late to the party, and I don't really want to skim 34 pages, but did anyone else see that there's a video for On the Backs of Angels?

https://new.music.yahoo.com/videos/--221576286


I had no idea...


EDIT: Apparently it came out today. I just happened to come across it.

Nel_Annette

Quote from: theseoafs on September 14, 2011, 02:58:43 PM
MP's brutal vocal style over that particular passage (including the roar) coupled with the lyrics, which review the not-at-all-brutal events in a not-at-all-brutal way (there was a car crash and it was scary but it was all fine in the end), just plain sounds silly. I don't find that the verse contributes to the song at all and I think the song would have been much better without it. That's my opinion and it's not unfounded.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I've always felt about it.

Anyway, finished a fifth listen to the album. Bridges In the Sky is starting to sound a lot better. Outcry is alright, but I don't think I'll ever get into Lost Not Forgotten. I really wish that Far From Heaven led straight into Breaking All Illusions, but that's just a personal preference as they still work as they are.

Jaffa

Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:09:40 PM
I really wish that Far From Heaven led straight into Breaking All Illusions, but that's just a personal preference as they still work as they are.

I assume you mean FFH -> BTS?

Super Dude

I'm not going batshit crazy over this album as I have for new releases in the past, but I don't think that's a reflection on Dream Theater (actually in fact I don't get super-excited about releases from anyone anymore). I will say however that this is a good deal better than recent previous output, particularly BCSL (although TCOT is still awesome).

Nel_Annette

Quote from: Jaffa on September 14, 2011, 04:10:47 PM
Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:09:40 PM
I really wish that Far From Heaven led straight into Breaking All Illusions, but that's just a personal preference as they still work as they are.

I assume you mean FFH -> BTS?

*Looks at tracklisting*

Um... no?

Jaffa

Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 14, 2011, 04:10:47 PM
Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:09:40 PM
I really wish that Far From Heaven led straight into Breaking All Illusions, but that's just a personal preference as they still work as they are.

I assume you mean FFH -> BTS?

*Looks at tracklisting*

Um... no?

Far From Heaven does lead straight into Breaking All Illusions...

... Doesn't it?

RuRoRul


Jaffa

Oh, right.

Sorry, Nel.  I thought you were referring to track order.  As in, saying you wished FFH came before BAI. 

I'm thinking I should get off the computer because I'm apparently stupid today.

Nel_Annette

Quote from: RuRoRul on September 14, 2011, 04:19:47 PM
He probably means without the silence between.

That's EXACTLY what I mean. The way everyone was talking about it, I thought it'd be more like Vacant/Stream Of Consciousness. But it works anyway, so it's a moot point. Just personal preference.

EDIT: It's all good, Jaffa. The abbreviations this time around are a bit confusing. XD

theseoafs

Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: RuRoRul on September 14, 2011, 04:19:47 PM
He probably means without the silence between.

That's EXACTLY what I mean. The way everyone was talking about it, I thought it'd be more like Vacant/Stream Of Consciousness. But it works anyway, so it's a moot point. Just personal preference.
Audacity?

Kotowboy

Quote from: theseoafs on September 14, 2011, 04:24:13 PM
Quote from: Nel on September 14, 2011, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: RuRoRul on September 14, 2011, 04:19:47 PM
He probably means without the silence between.

That's EXACTLY what I mean. The way everyone was talking about it, I thought it'd be more like Vacant/Stream Of Consciousness. But it works anyway, so it's a moot point. Just personal preference.
Audacity?

No. Opinion.  :biggrin:

Kotowboy

What with Rush signing to Roadrunner and this being a highly anticipated album...

I wonder how Portnoy would react if the first DT without him goes to #1 in the US.

Also, has anyone mentioned that this is Labrie's tenth DT album? Kind of a milestone for him :)

Maybe that's why he put extra effort in ?

Kotowboy

Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 14, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on September 14, 2011, 08:25:48 AM
Well, I'm baffled any DT fan could not like this album. They basically fixed EVERYTHING that was wrong with their 00s output:

No MP lead vocals
No forcing JLB to sing like Hetfield/Bellamy/etc
Using Jordan to full potential
Myung involved again
Improved lyrics
Great vocal melodies and choruses
No tired solo trade-offs

Whatever.

The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that every fan had a problem with their 00s output and thought there were all of these problems to fix. ;)

I'm glad they fixed all the above too.  :coolio

CodyWanKenobi

Quote from: Jaffa on September 14, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 14, 2011, 01:38:07 PM
In seeing a lot of comments about Bridges In The Sky, I have to say, I think this is on small mistake the band made:  I think they should have left the song title as "The Shaman's Trance."  Yeah, it's a strange title for a song.  But on the other hand, you would have a lot less confusion about the Shaman's vocal sound effects in the song.  People would see the song title, hear that, and go, "Wait, what is--oh, I see."  And that would be that.  Having the song title be Bridges In The Sky, listeners who don't know about the original song title don't get it and get confused.  IMO, they should have left it alone.  /nitpick

In my ideal world, track five would be called The Shaman's Trance and the album would be called Bridges in the Sky.  Then, TST would be the song that quotes the album's title, and the shaman's voice issue would be cleared up, and all would be groovy. 

But this is probably just because I still don't like ADTOE as an album title.

I think they should have called it "Bridges in the Sky (The Shaman's Trance)" or something like that.
My latest concept album "IV: Timber" IS OUT NOW!
linktree = STARCOMMANDStudios

Nic35

Lost Not Forgotten : 4:53-5:40

:hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy


Kosmo

I'm not really a fan of the musical spaz out after the nice intro in Lost Not Forgotten, but besides that it's one of the best on the album.

Blackfield

THE BASS! THE BASS!! THE BASS!!!

It's good to have you back, Mr Myung!  :heart

Dream Team

Quote from: FracturedMirror on September 14, 2011, 12:49:50 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 14, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on September 14, 2011, 08:25:48 AM
Well, I'm baffled any DT fan could not like this album. They basically fixed EVERYTHING that was wrong with their 00s output:

No MP lead vocals
No forcing JLB to sing like Hetfield/Bellamy/etc
Using Jordan to full potential
Myung involved again
Improved lyrics
Great vocal melodies and choruses
No tired solo trade-offs

Whatever.

The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that every fan had a problem with their 00s output and thought there were all of these problems to fix. ;)

Yeah, for the most part none of those are things that I thought needed "fixed".

Really? You think JR just doubling JP's guitar is a good use of his talent? You liked the idea of MP horning in more and more on the vocals for each album? You think making JLB sing like he did on CM and TDEN is an effective use of his voice? Exactly which of the things on my list were you happy with???

bosk1

I think they've already said they were happy with most if not all of the items on your list.  I know I was.  If you can't accept that and only want to argue, I can tell you that's not a good idea. 

Perpetual Change

Are we talking about the band being happy, or the fans?

No MP lead vocals
Can't really be sure about this one. I think fans weren't happy with it, for the most part, but you've got to assume the band were fine with it, or at the very least diplomatic.

No forcing JLB to sing like Hetfield/Bellamy/etc
Not sure James was forced to do anything in the past, but the fact he wanted to record his vocals on his own with his close friend in Canada is pretty telling. I think fans have been for the most part happy with him regardless. I personally liked his "bellamy" voice.

Using Jordan to full potential
Agreed completely with this. Again, nothing we've seen from before suggests he was unhappy with his role in the band but it does seem like he's being utilized better than ever now. Fans are a bit more divided, but criticism of him has reduced a lot over the years.

Myung involved again
Yeah, he seems to be much more part of it. Fans are definitely happier about this. You've got to assume he is too, since he seems so much more involved.

Improved lyrics
Eh... I think the band were really happy with the last two album's lyrics. Which would explain why the lyrics on this album are pretty much of the same quality. As far as fans go, I dunno. I don't see why people who didn't like the last two albums' lyrics would suddenly like these more.

Great vocal melodies and choruses
I think the band were happy with these, too. As were fans. This album is more melodic, though, which is great IMO.

No tired solo trade-offs
John P has explicitly stated he wanted to move past this, as have fans, so this one is dead on.

iamtheeviltwin

Quote from: Perpetual Change on September 15, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
Using Jordan to full potential
Agreed completely with this. Again, nothing we've seen from before suggests he was unhappy with his role in the band but it does seem like he's being utilized better than ever now. Fans are a bit more divided, but criticism of him has reduced a lot over the years.

Actually in a recent interview Jordan made a statement about how he had been disappointed that much of what he was doing had been buried in the mix (at least on BCSL)...I'm too lazy to go digging it up, but it was one posted in the last week or two.

Personally, I think his work on this album is his best (whole album) work to date.  He not only has shown his virtuosity in numerous places, but he has brought in the atmosphere that has been missing in many ways since KevMo left.  As a whole his sound is a huge nod back to older prog sounds and records.  Would love to see him play with some more Moog and organ sounds in future albums.

BlackInk

About the lyrics, the only problem I have with them is some "un-deepness" in Black Clouds & Silver Linings, a little cheesy stuff in Octavarium (NOT THE SONG!), and perhaps The Dark Eternal Night. Otherwise it's all good. But I have to say the lyrics on A Dramatic Turn of Events is damn good.

And the Portnoy vocals were great in like The Glass Prison and some other songs, it only bothers me in A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany.

BlobVanDam

Quote from: Dream Team on September 15, 2011, 07:03:12 AM
Really? You think JR just doubling JP's guitar is a good use of his talent? You liked the idea of MP horning in more and more on the vocals for each album? You think making JLB sing like he did on CM and TDEN is an effective use of his voice? Exactly which of the things on my list were you happy with???

I'll run through the list-

MP lead vocals - He did this how many times? ANTR and PoW are the only ones I can think of. Anything else I'd call a backup vocal roll, and I really liked what MP's voice added to those songs. I loved hearing rich 3 part vocals with the tone of JLB, JP and MP together. And I really like the JLB/MP tradeoffs in songs like TGP and CM. And I liked a lot of MP's spoken vocals underneath JLB's vocals.

Forcing JLB to sound like Hetfield/Bellamy - Again, a total of two songs in a decade of MP having control? CM and Never Enough. Aside from that, this is another one of those things that gets blown out of proportion to me. Yes, there were definitely moments when JLB's vocals were not utilized well, and he was trying to fit something that wasn't suited to him.
CM was not a good use of his voice, but he still did a solid job, and I still love the song, as derivative as it clearly is. TDEN's verses again were admittedly not suited to JLB's vocals, but I love the song, because they experimented and tried something different, and I really enjoy the distorted vocals with MP for a one off song. I hate Never Enough because I felt that was too forced, so I won't defend that one.
And aside from a lot of TCOT, I think JLB's vocals were utilized very well on BCASL, and aside from the few rare examples I've mentioned already, I haven't had any issue with JLB's vocals on any of the self produced albums. I would say that JLB's heavy vocals on ANTR are just as well suited to him as the heavy songs on ADTOE.
I like that they occasionally try to push for something a bit different, even including these occasional times when it's not entirely successful.

Using Jordan to his potential - As a big fan of JR and keyboards, I agree that Jordan hasn't always been utilized well. But even on the songs where he's not using his full potential, such as TDEN and CM, I still feel he manages to add his touch, and I don't feel those particular styles of songs are worse off for lacking keyboards. In fact, I rank these songs very highly.
The only album I feel JR is underutilized overall is SC. He actually does a lot of cool stuff on ToT, although he's too buried in the mix a lot of the time. He totally shines on all of Octavarium, and even most of BCASL is quite good. I think ANTR was a song that utilized JR extremely well for such a heavy song. He added a ton of atmosphere there from beginning to end. Also, I really love the snarling pig doubling sound for those times when he's just riff doubling. I know I'm not entirely alone there either.
So at times his talent was not being put to good use, but to me it wasn't all too often, and I still enjoyed the songs very much. I'm glad he's being put to better use though, because he is responsible for most of my favourite DT songs.

Myung involved again - This one I'll agree with. He adds a lot of groove, and contributes good lyrics. But I enjoy the metal, and I had no problem with him doubling a heavy riff when that was what the music called for. But listening to SDOIT recently, the music is often better when he's doing his own thing. It's also the reason people think he's higher in the mix this album. But he's not. He's just not doubling anymore! He's actually cranked on most of their music.

Improved lyrics - Admittedly, I've never cared too much about lyrics, and I don't mind a lot of the lyrics that bother most people. TCOT's lyrics are unique, and they're fun. And I don't at all mind the fantasy stuff on SC. It was something different. I can understand why people take issue with these, but I didn't consider this a problem. There are lyrics on old albums I find more detrimental to the music. Each to his own.

Great vocal melodies and choruses - I will mostly disagree here. Dream Theater have always had a focus on great melodies and choruses, even on recent albums. I actually miss a lot of the big 3 part choruses DT were doing for choruses on recent albums, which I feel were probably MP's influence. Look at the mid section of ANTR, AROP's chorus, Wither. Great choruses. And say what you want about ITPOE, but go and listen to it and take notice of the vocal melodies and vocal delivery. They're amazing (excluding The Reckoning, which is a let down).
The last two albums definitely have their weaker spots, such as CM, TDEN, and most of TCOT, but aside from that, I found they had some truly amazing melodies. So I'll agree that ADTOE is more consistent here, but DT most certainly never stopped writing great choruses and melodies. I even think some of the stuff on BCASL is better than ADTOE.

No tired solo trade-offs - BCASL had 2/6 songs with back to back guitar/key solos. I already considered it a step in that direction. And there's a solo tradeoff in BITS, and I don't think it's any better than the ones on recent albums. And there's sort of one in LNF, although it's arguably done differently, and better (I quite like the section). The instrumental section in Outcry does nothing for me either, and it doesn't have any trade-offs at all. I either like an instrumental section or I don't, but the exact structure of it doesn't matter much to me.

It's not that I entirely disagree with any of your points, and some of these things have definitely improved on ADTOE, but I think a lot of these things are spoken of as a lot worse than they actually were. Just my opinion.

Jaffa

Quote from: Dream Team on September 15, 2011, 07:03:12 AM
Exactly which of the things on my list were you happy with???

Your list presupposes three things:

1. Every fan agrees with your opinion of those factors on recent albums.
2. Every fan agrees with your opinion that those factors have improved on the new album.
3. Every fan cares about those factors enough to view their improvement as an overall change for the better.

But take the point about lyrics, for instance.  What about a fan who liked recent lyrics?  Or what about a fan that didn't like recent lyrics, but doesn't think ADTOE does much better?  Or what about a fan who liked recent lyrics and thinks ADTOE is a step in the wrong direction?  Or what about a fan who doesn't pay attention to lyrics in the first place, and therefore doesn't let lyrics change his opinion of an album overall? 

Or your point about JLB's vocals in Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night.  Well, on Riceball's top 50 list, he has TDEN at number 14.  The Dark Eternal Night is his 14th favorite DReam Theater song.  You think he has a problem with its vocals?  Think he would agree that they 'needed fixing?'  I myself thought JLB's vocals in those songs were entertaining.  I also liked his 'Bellamy' vocals - I don't have any problem with those songs.  And while losing those vocals certainly doesn't HURT my opinion of the new album, it also doesn't automatically IMPROVE my opinion of the new album.


Don't get me wrong: I'm thoroughly enjoying ADTOE.  I am not trying to criticize it.  I'm just annoyed by the idea that a fan is somehow wrong if they don't like it.  I for one like seeing varied opinions.

EDIT: Also, what Blob said. 

andrewt67

Hi !

Only got the new album last night - courtesy of my 14 yr old son.......he walked in and said "I've got something for you Dad" - and dropped the new CD on my lap - what a star !!!!

Listened to part of it on the way to work this morning.......my thoughts so far........

After I'd listened to Build Me Up Break Me Down for the first time......I was almost gasping for breath !!!! Sounds ridiculous, I know, but did anyone else experience this ????

Lost Not Forgotten - awesome...................just awesome !!!!!

Bridges In The Sky - great song (could definitely do without the bizarre burping noises though !)

Nice to see that the drums are put in the mix at a SENSIBLE level......and not right in your face like they were on the last 2 albums....

Petrucci and Rudess both shine brightly, as always.......................Mangini throws in some wonderful fills without being over the top..................

Cannot make any further comments just now.....but needless to say...........I'm looking forward to the rest of it !!!

livehard

Hey Guys,

New to the forum but looking forward to contributing.

What I love noticing from DT as new albums come out is that you can really see a progression of maturity from their albums.  I find that this album is so musically involved, and so compositionally rich.  DT songs were always onions with a lot of layers - you could listen to a song 30 times and find something new; but this album hits a new level.  For example I love the orchestral outro that Rudess does at the end of Breaking All Illusions & Build Me Up and Break Me Down.  I feel like old DT would simply stop their songs (not as much as other bands however) whereas here the musical themes are introduced expanded upon then completed.

Drumming wise, I am happy with what Mangini did, I am not missing Portnoy's efforts in the band whatsoever.

One ciriticism I do have is that maybe they had TOO many good ideas in some songs.   I feel like there are a couple songs that have enough musical ideas to make 3 or 4 other songs. 

Breaking all Illusions has some great ideas in there, but as it has been mentioned before it seems like sometimes they crammed the chorus to close together with the preceeding few bars.   I feel like they could have made it flow more smoothly by adding a few bars in between.

But overall I feel its a really powerful, orchestral, compositionally great album.  Labrie is singing beautifully, the band is firing on all cylanders.  You can't ask for much more :)


Perpetual Change

QuoteMP lead vocals - He did this how many times? ANTR and PoW are the only ones I can think of. Anything else I'd call a backup vocal roll, and I really liked what MP's voice added to those songs. I loved hearing rich 3 part vocals with the tone of JLB, JP and MP together. And I really like the JLB/MP tradeoffs in songs like TGP and CM. And I liked a lot of MP's spoken vocals underneath JLB's vocals.

I liked them when they only appeared once or twice per album. And his background vocals were great-- until they became "tough guy" background vocals. On Black Clouds, those tough guy vocals were on every song but Wither and the Best of Times, which was not cool IMO.

Honestly, even imagining where his vocals might have cropped up in "Bridges in the Sky" or "Outcry" kinda makes  me disappointed  :P

Nothing against Mike, but the underlying notion that James' voice can't handle "tough" was always wrong. James can do tough fine. He's been doing tough fine!

BlobVanDam

Quote from: Perpetual Change on September 15, 2011, 07:56:41 AM
Nothing against Mike, but the underlying notion that James' voice can't handle "tough" was always wrong. James can do tough fine. He's been doing tough fine!

I never interpreted MP's vocals that way. It was a matter of contrast. The only way I feel it would have undermined JLB's vocal talents is lead vocals, such as ANTR. I'm indifferent to that section, but that one's perhaps valid.
Aside from that, it's always to either add another vocal element to achieve a certain sound, or as a call and response type thing that would sound a bit weird with one vocalist, which I actually really liked.
To me it was no different to using MP/JP for harmonies. It was used to add a variety of tones to the vocals, much like how JP would double a guitar riff with a different guitar sound to add depth. I actually miss having the other guys doing some vocals. And the majority of the time, I had absolutely no issue with "tough guy" vocals. TDEN and ANTR are both top 20 songs for me.

bosk1

Quote from: Perpetual Change on September 15, 2011, 07:56:41 AM
QuoteMP lead vocals - He did this how many times? ANTR and PoW are the only ones I can think of. Anything else I'd call a backup vocal roll, and I really liked what MP's voice added to those songs. I loved hearing rich 3 part vocals with the tone of JLB, JP and MP together. And I really like the JLB/MP tradeoffs in songs like TGP and CM. And I liked a lot of MP's spoken vocals underneath JLB's vocals.

I liked them when they only appeared once or twice per album. And his background vocals were great-- until they became "tough guy" background vocals. On Black Clouds, those tough guy vocals were on every song but Wither and the Best of Times, which was not cool IMO.

Honestly, even imagining where his vocals might have cropped up in "Bridges in the Sky" or "Outcry" kinda makes  me disappointed  :P

Nothing against Mike, but the underlying notion that James' voice can't handle "tough" was always wrong. James can do tough fine. He's been doing tough fine!

I agree that James can handle "tough" vocals.  He's proven that.  And he did those kinds of vocals a lot, even on the previous two albums.  It's just that Mike started doing some of them.  The amount that Mike did on the last two pre-ADTOE albums was fine for me.  Much more would have been too much, but I was completely fine with what he did.  And just because there was an upward trend in Mike's vocals on the last two albums doesn't mean that trend would have continued.  But there is plenty that he did that was just perfect as well. 

I absolutely LOVE the tradeoff vocals he did on songs like Constant Motion and The Shattered Fortress.  The tradeoffs between he and James, IMO, took both of those songs up several notches.  Not that James can't handle those kinds of vocals.  He was pretty much doing the same kinds of vocals in the tradeoffs.  It just sounded cool with two different voices. 

I know the fan base is split on this one, but I also really like the vocal passage on ANTR, as I've said over and over.  What some people seem not not understand is that that is the pivotal moment in the song where the narrative shifts and, rather than going point by point through the events that happened in the story, it's a step back to summarize that the event was very dark and that even the small glimmer of positive in the situation is such a small silver lining in what is completely a VERY dark cloud (metaphor on purpose, because I think that's exactly what the band was doing).  So while James could definitely handle that part, I think it was appropriate to have a different voice to further highlight that shift.  And I think the vocal tone they ultimately went with was perfect.  Too clean, and it would not have had the impact and dark quality that is needed for that part.  Too far in the growly direction Mike had originally intended would have pushed it over the top.  As it is, I think it ended up being perfect.

Stuff like what he did on TCOT I don't really care about.  That could go either way.  It doesn't bother me one bit, but if they had just left those background vocals with James, that would have been fine too.  An AROP, however, they really fit the song well.

Anyway, bottom line is, yeah, there was definitely room for adjustment, but I think Mike's vocals added a lot to most of the songs they showed up on.

As for the other stuff Blob pointed out, I mostly agree.  Yeah, there is always room for adjustment and improvement.  And the band showed on this album that they were capable to taking all those things up a few notches and blowing a lot of us away by doing it.  But "there's room for improvement" is not the same as "it needed fixing."  If something is working fine, it doesn't need fixing.  It can sometimes be improved and made better, but that doesn't mean it was broken.  That distinction seems to be getting lost. 

theseoafs

Quote from: bosk1 on September 15, 2011, 08:12:06 AM
I agree that James can handle "tough" vocals.  He's proven that.  And he did those kinds of vocals a lot, even on the previous two albums.  It's just that Mike started doing some of them.  The amount that Mike did on ADTOE was fine for me.
You must have gotten the special edition, huh?

livehard

Oh! Also-

Is it just me or would have anyone else preferred Rudess on a stineway during his little solo in Beneath the Surface instead of whatever synth he used? I think it would have made the song.

Jaffa

Quote from: livehard on September 15, 2011, 08:19:21 AM
Oh! Also-

Is it just me or would have anyone else preferred Rudess on a stineway during his little solo in Beneath the Surface instead of whatever synth he used? I think it would have made the song.

I personally thought that part was absolutely gorgeous as is, but maybe that's just me.  :)

Also, welcome to the forum!

BlobVanDam

Quote from: theseoafs on September 15, 2011, 08:15:52 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 15, 2011, 08:12:06 AM
I agree that James can handle "tough" vocals.  He's proven that.  And he did those kinds of vocals a lot, even on the previous two albums.  It's just that Mike started doing some of them.  The amount that Mike did on ADTOE was fine for me.
You must have gotten the special edition, huh?

Or maybe he was ok with Portnoy's amount of vocals on ADTOE, ie none. Or maybe he was referring to Mike Mangini' vocals on the album. See? Not so hard to figure out.  :P