Digital Audio Workstation discussion

[RedKlouD72]

Hi. I want to see if there are any trends as far as how people perceive the quality and prestige of various Digital Audio Workstations.
 
I am aware that ProTools has become the industry standard. But I am also wondering if any of you think this is sort of unwarranted,  and think that another one is technically better.
 
Also can anybody described to me what they think is so special about ProTools in comparison to other DAWs?
 
I've been using the same DAW for a few years, and I think, in the back of my head, I'm considering converting to ProTools. (I'm sure this wouldn't be a stupid idea considering it is so widely used, but I think I'm looking for some people to push me over the edge on this)
 
Also, what are your thoughts on GarageBand? I have never really sat down with it, but I have this impression that it is sort of ummmm... limited. Like it is kind of a toy.  Would you say GarageBand is an actual competitor, or do I have the right idea?

[RobD]

Garageband is the "cheap plastic car keys that toddlers use to teethe" of the DAW world. If you haven't a clue, use it for a week or two then go and get something better.

Most people I've spoken to on the subject will argue that you'll like best the one that you learned on or use the most. This is utter bullcrap. In college, and later in the studio I worked at despite my arguments against it, I was using Logic. A hell of a lot. And I really find it a badly designed, inaccurate and ironically illogical piece of software. It's fine for general editing of MIDI but the second you try and do something using audio or something that requires any level of detail it becomes frustrating and really slows down my work. Just something as adding crossfades and fades in and out on regions takes too much time. Instead of clicking and dragging the top end corners to where you want to fade to or hitting a shortcut (which takes nothing but under a second) you have to select the region, find the option in a dialogue in the side panel and either drag or type in how long you want to fade for. Over the course of a days work I'd end up wasting so much time just doing that one very simple task.

At home I use Cubase 5 until I can afford a new interface and ProTools. Cubase is great for the money, and years ahead of Logic. ProTools I've only used on rare occasions and quite frankly it's exactly what I'd expect and want from a DAW. Everything in ProTools is in the right place, simple but incredibly powerful and accurate. Shortcuts are intelligently laid out to make common tasks an absolute breeze, especially compared to Logic. More complex tasks and operations are much more logical so you don't need to be spending money calling Apple to work out how to do it. If you have the basic understanding of how things work in audio tech then most things are within reach with just some creative thinking or basic problem solving skills.

TL;DR - I've used Logic the most, but it's obtuse. Don't go for Apple software

[tjanuranus]

Garageband is the "cheap plastic car keys that toddlers use to teethe" of the DAW world. If you haven't a clue, use it for a week or two then go and get something better.

Most people I've spoken to on the subject will argue that you'll like best the one that you learned on or use the most. This is utter bullcrap. In college, and later in the studio I worked at despite my arguments against it, I was using Logic. A hell of a lot. And I really find it a badly designed, inaccurate and ironically illogical piece of software. It's fine for general editing of MIDI but the second you try and do something using audio or something that requires any level of detail it becomes frustrating and really slows down my work. Just something as adding crossfades and fades in and out on regions takes too much time. Instead of clicking and dragging the top end corners to where you want to fade to or hitting a shortcut (which takes nothing but under a second) you have to select the region, find the option in a dialogue in the side panel and either drag or type in how long you want to fade for. Over the course of a days work I'd end up wasting so much time just doing that one very simple task.

At home I use Cubase 5 until I can afford a new interface and ProTools. Cubase is great for the money, and years ahead of Logic. ProTools I've only used on rare occasions and quite frankly it's exactly what I'd expect and want from a DAW. Everything in ProTools is in the right place, simple but incredibly powerful and accurate. Shortcuts are intelligently laid out to make common tasks an absolute breeze, especially compared to Logic. More complex tasks and operations are much more logical so you don't need to be spending money calling Apple to work out how to do it. If you have the basic understanding of how things work in audio tech then most things are within reach with just some creative thinking or basic problem solving skills.

TL;DR - I've used Logic the most, but it's obtuse. Don't go for Apple software

That is such bullshit by someone who clearly doesn't know the program. I taught logic for almost a decade full time and what you are describing is not Logic at all. You don't even seem to know how to do a proper crossfade. I taught it before Apple bought eMagic so it has nothing to do with Apple. I've been using logic since Logic 4. Logic 9 is a fantastic piece of software that can do anything you need it do and more and an extremely fast rate. A LOT of pros use Logic and Pro tools. Why would they use it if it was slow?

[RobD]

That is such bullshit by someone who clearly doesn't know the program. I taught logic for almost a decade full time and what you are describing is not Logic at all. You don't even seem to know how to do a proper crossfade. I taught it before Apple bought eMagic so it has nothing to do with Apple. I've been using logic since Logic 4. Logic 9 is a fantastic piece of software that can do anything you need it do and more and an extremely fast rate. A LOT of pros use Logic and Pro tools. Why would they use it if it was slow?

Don't get me wrong, for midi work it's great, but the second you try and use it with audio files it's a headache. And that's after working with it for nearly 7-8 years.

[RedKlouD72]

That is such bullshit by someone who clearly doesn't know the program. I taught logic for almost a decade full time and what you are describing is not Logic at all. You don't even seem to know how to do a proper crossfade. I taught it before Apple bought eMagic so it has nothing to do with Apple. I've been using logic since Logic 4. Logic 9 is a fantastic piece of software that can do anything you need it do and more and an extremely fast rate. A LOT of pros use Logic and Pro tools. Why would they use it if it was slow?

Don't get me wrong, for midi work it's great, but the second you try and use it with audio files it's a headache. And that's after working with it for nearly 7-8 years.

Velly velly interesting debate here.

I posted this query on the MP forum as well and received an equally funny response about GarageBand.
Someone said that GarageBand is based on Logic but is so stripped down that if it went out in public it would get arrested. 

I was kind of looking for that response, cuz I told two of my friends that they should look into getting a real DAW instead of using GarageBand... but I hadn't really done my homework on GarageBand. I was kinda just assuming its not for serious projects.

[zepp-head]

I've used quite a few, and Pro Tools is by far the best, most friendly, and well rounded of those.  Adobe Audition is fine for things if you need it for radio spots or general voice stuff, though I'm not fund of how the editing is handled.

I don't just use them for music though, I need a DAW that can handle both music and post-production for video.  And for both of those needs, I haven't used anything that's in the same ball park as Pro Tools.  I'm itching to try Nuendo, but I agree that Logic feels gimmicky. 

[Adami]

I only use Pro Tools right now. And it's just fantastic, it makes editing audio the easiest thing in the world and it works very very logically and how you'd naturally expect things to work.

I used to work with Sonar for years and it was fine, but it lacked a good amount of the features that make Pro Tools so great like easy access to grid editing and so forth.


As far as Logic goes, I have it installed and I've heard it's amazing for MIDI but for some reason I can't get mine set up properly haha and I'm too much of a guy to call Tech Support for it, but I hope to experiment with it eventually since I am doing more and more midi work these days. However using MIDI in pro tools is beyond easy as well, and now with the score editor it's just a dream.

[zepp-head]

As far as Logic goes, I have it installed and I've heard it's amazing for MIDI but for some reason I can't get mine set up properly haha and I'm too much of a guy to call Tech Support for it, but I hope to experiment with it eventually since I am doing more and more midi work these days. However using MIDI in pro tools is beyond easy as well, and now with the score editor it's just a dream.

Absolutely, they've really made good strides with that in the more recent versions.  It's wonderful.

[7StringedBeast]

I only use Pro Tools right now. And it's just fantastic, it makes editing audio the easiest thing in the world and it works very very logically and how you'd naturally expect things to work.

I used to work with Sonar for years and it was fine, but it lacked a good amount of the features that make Pro Tools so great like easy access to grid editing and so forth.


As far as Logic goes, I have it installed and I've heard it's amazing for MIDI but for some reason I can't get mine set up properly haha and I'm too much of a guy to call Tech Support for it, but I hope to experiment with it eventually since I am doing more and more midi work these days. However using MIDI in pro tools is beyond easy as well, and now with the score editor it's just a dream.

I use Sonar 8 and I have to say its fantastic for editing.  The only thing it isn't great at is production audio for film or TV.  That's the only place I've seen its limitations.  Otherwise, I have no problems with it whatsoever. 

And no, there is no difference in quality of sound depending on the program.  It won't make a difference what you do it in, it just matters that you know what you are doing. 

I love mixing in Sonar.  I find it more intuitive than protools actually.  Although I enjoy tracking in protools more than sonar but not by much.  But for mixing, sonar is sweet for me.

[Adami]

It really just depends on how you like to work. Many people prefer Pro Tools, many people prefer Sonar, many people prefer Cubase, TJ prefers Logic etc. Just try them all, for a while if you can and find what works best for you.


Then once you've done that, use Pro Tools.

[Big Crouton]

I will add another voice of hatred towards logic.  Hatred is far too strong a term, but I used it for 2 years while in school, and it frustrated me to no end.  I realize that there are plenty of people who work efficiently with it (even for audio intensive applications) but the way that it's laid out just was not compatible with how I expect a DAW to function.

I've been rocking Pro Tools for 7 or 8 years now, and I love it more all the time.  I still learn new tricks and shortcuts rather frequently.

From my perspective, I think Cubase/Nuendo is the only DAW out there that rivals Pro Tools for features and functionality.  PT and Nuendo each have their things that they do better, and each has a few cool features that are lacking from the other, but you can do great work with high efficiency with either program.  I would love Pro Tools to implement something like Cubase's control room.

Anyways, I'm sure there's other DAWs out there that are really solid, but I don't know of any that can be used for such a vast variety of purposes in such completely different ways like Pro Tools and Nuendo.  The cool thing with these programs is that everyone uses them in their own way.  Everyone has their own shortcuts that they know and use, and there's so many different ways to get the same result that just about anyone can be comfortable working within them.

It's also cool that you can almost always learn something from just about anyone who uses Pro Tools.  I've taught things to people who've been using it far longer than I have, and I've learned things from people who have only been using it for a few months.  It's a vast, rich, deep program.

Basically, I get very few opportunities to talk about recording, so I may have overdone it here.  But seriously, I strongly recommend Pro Tools, and I think Cubase/Nuendo is a similarly solid program.  It just never really did it for me personally.

Oh, and garageband is a joke for anyone who is serious about music production.  That said, it has made the world of music creation remarkably simple and accessible to millions of people, and is a great tool for musicians who want to dick around with loops and electronic music creation without having to tackle the rather steep learning curve of any of the more serious programs.

Also, watching the live stream of the announcement and release of Pro Tools 9 was the closest thing to the joy of christmas morning as a child that I have experienced as an adult.

[RobD]

Yeah, ProTools going native made me cry. In my pants. It may also mean that things such as something similar to the control room in Cubase could turn up in the next few versions. They seem to be really adding so much to it now and offering way more variety of options for different budgets. The DAW business was a bit dull a few years ago and it felt like it had peaked in what was possible, but the last year or so has gotten exciting again in an extremely nerdy way

I've used Cubase for film post production and it's ok. Not sure on Nuendo as I've not had a proper chance to use it. It's not amazing but you can do a good job of you take time and care, but if you're looking to do a great job quickly I'd have to choose ProTools every single time. Foley is a dull task anyway, but it seemed to take ages in Cubase. I don't know if it's just because Cubase is more designed for music than post or not.

[tjanuranus]

For the Record I can use Pro Tools and Logic fluently mainly because they are the studio standards. If you walk into most pro studios you will find those two applications. I also used to teach Nuendo/cubase and digital performer. That was my job for 10 years, teaching studio production mainly focused on DAW's.

When I actually want to get something done though myself I will always use logic because it can do everything I need it do and extremely fast. The audio portion of Logic 9 is great. Audio didn't used to be but they really enhanced in the last release.

[zepp-head]

I will add another voice of hatred towards logic.  Hatred is far too strong a term, but I used it for 2 years while in school, and it frustrated me to no end.  I realize that there are plenty of people who work efficiently with it (even for audio intensive applications) but the way that it's laid out just was not compatible with how I expect a DAW to function.

I've been rocking Pro Tools for 7 or 8 years now, and I love it more all the time.  I still learn new tricks and shortcuts rather frequently.

From my perspective, I think Cubase/Nuendo is the only DAW out there that rivals Pro Tools for features and functionality.  PT and Nuendo each have their things that they do better, and each has a few cool features that are lacking from the other, but you can do great work with high efficiency with either program.  I would love Pro Tools to implement something like Cubase's control room.

Anyways, I'm sure there's other DAWs out there that are really solid, but I don't know of any that can be used for such a vast variety of purposes in such completely different ways like Pro Tools and Nuendo.  The cool thing with these programs is that everyone uses them in their own way.  Everyone has their own shortcuts that they know and use, and there's so many different ways to get the same result that just about anyone can be comfortable working within them.

It's also cool that you can almost always learn something from just about anyone who uses Pro Tools.  I've taught things to people who've been using it far longer than I have, and I've learned things from people who have only been using it for a few months.  It's a vast, rich, deep program.

Basically, I get very few opportunities to talk about recording, so I may have overdone it here.  But seriously, I strongly recommend Pro Tools, and I think Cubase/Nuendo is a similarly solid program.  It just never really did it for me personally.

Oh, and garageband is a joke for anyone who is serious about music production.  That said, it has made the world of music creation remarkably simple and accessible to millions of people, and is a great tool for musicians who want to dick around with loops and electronic music creation without having to tackle the rather steep learning curve of any of the more serious programs.

Also, watching the live stream of the announcement and release of Pro Tools 9 was the closest thing to the joy of christmas morning as a child that I have experienced as an adult.

Agreed 100% on the learning Pro Tools bit.  I taught advanced audio labs the last two years which were Pro Tools exclusive, and it wasn't long before I was picking up a thing or two from my students as well. 

[Big Crouton]

I just saw a video today in which Avid mentioned that they are currently developing handles for Audio Suite processing.  This means that using audio suite will keep your various regions, edits, and fades in tact, and leave you able to still adjust fade placement and region starts/ends after audio suite processing.  This is fantastic.  If they could just add region based effects like Nuendo has I would be a very happy man.

[Gorille85]

We learn to use Pro Tools because it's the program almost everyone is using right now in music/film/games.

[tjanuranus]

We learn to use Pro Tools because it's the program almost everyone is using right now in music/film/games.

That's true for recording but not so much for production.

[Gorille85]

Production too. At least in Canada.

[tjanuranus]

People there use it for creating music? Not talking about recording or mixing/editing.

[Gorille85]

I meant post-prod, mixing/editing, yeah. For creation it's Reason/Recycle I guess?

[tjanuranus]

I meant post-prod, mixing/editing, yeah. For creation it's Reason/Recycle I guess?

I use Reason routed into Logic. That on top of the logic stuff is very powerful.

[RedKlouD72]

I may have to get some ProTools.  maybe in 2 years or so.   

I just started work on a 8 song project.  I will stay with Sonar for it. should take a fairly long time.   but once done, will seriously consider making the switch.

Hey, Quest ee ohn---  How does ProTools handle Re-Wire?   From what I have found on the web, it looks like ProTools does do re-wire, but does anyone experience syncing issues? wierd sort of errors?
I run Sonar 8 and Re-Wire with Fruity Loops XXL all dee time.

[7StringedBeast]

Honestly man, the only reason I would go Pro Tools if I were you, is if you were planning on passing around projects with other people.  Otherwise Pro Tools really doesn't offer anything new or anything you need that Sonar doesn't.

[Adami]

Honestly man, the only reason I would go Pro Tools if I were you, is if you were planning on passing around projects with other people.  Otherwise Pro Tools really doesn't offer anything new or anything you need that Sonar doesn't.

It did for me. I found pro tools to be WAY more user friendly than Sonar, he might feel the same way. He might not, who knows, he'll have to try.

[RedKlouD72]

Honestly man, the only reason I would go Pro Tools if I were you, is if you were planning on passing around projects with other people.  Otherwise Pro Tools really doesn't offer anything new or anything you need that Sonar doesn't.

HA . Ha,,,    Well considering I've only really passed around a project with you... I should stay on Sonar.   

but... I have this weird feeling in my skull about not using the Industry Standard when it is clearly available to me.

I dont know.  This requires much thought.   

[7StringedBeast]

The way I see it is, you can make the same thing you are doing now on pro tools and spend 600 bucks on it.  Or you can just stick with Sonar and save yourself the cash.  Sonar Producer edition is incredibly powerful and easily can stand up with pro tools.  It's not the program, its the person using it.

[Adami]

The way I see it is, you can make the same thing you are doing now on pro tools and spend 600 bucks on it.  Or you can just stick with Sonar and save yourself the cash.  Sonar Producer edition is incredibly powerful and easily can stand up with pro tools.  It's not the program, its the person using it.

I get that you like Sonar, but I find it odd that your basic message is "Despite Pro Tools being a standard....I like Sonar, so at no point try other programs, stick only to Sonar....forever". Just let him try a bunch of different stuff, who cares? I felt the same way about Sonar until I tried Pro Tools. I still love Sonar, but I use Pro Tools.

[7StringedBeast]

The way I see it is, you can make the same thing you are doing now on pro tools and spend 600 bucks on it.  Or you can just stick with Sonar and save yourself the cash.  Sonar Producer edition is incredibly powerful and easily can stand up with pro tools.  It's not the program, its the person using it.

I get that you like Sonar, but I find it odd that your basic message is "Despite Pro Tools being a standard....I like Sonar, so at no point try other programs, stick only to Sonar....forever". Just let him try a bunch of different stuff, who cares? I felt the same way about Sonar until I tried Pro Tools. I still love Sonar, but I use Pro Tools.

Cause he's a friend of mine and I know what he's using it for.  I'm not saying not to try it, I'm saying he should probably save the money for what he does with it at the moment. 

[MetalMike06]

To the OP, what type of stuff do you record the most? Do you DJ? Or are you doing guitar/bass/drums - the typical band sorta thing? Orchestral stuff? Cause different programs I think cater to certain preferences like that.

[petrucci07]

I'm using Logic, and I think it's awesome. Haven't used anything else, thought I'm sure I'll get some experience in ProTools soon as they use it at my college.

[RedKlouD72]

To the OP, what type of stuff do you record the most? Do you DJ? Or are you doing guitar/bass/drums - the typical band sorta thing? Orchestral stuff? Cause different programs I think cater to certain preferences like that.

ROCK AND ROLL maaannn. 

yeah, all my stuff is Drum(software), Bass, Guitar, Vocal, Keyboards & Synth arrangements.

I've just finished up my album that 7StringedBeast helped me with. I gotta make a thread about it.

[MajorMatt]

I liked fucking about in Reason with my MIDI keyboard (i got a very convincing JR SFAM lead tone from this) but for recording guitar/MIDI shit; I like Logic/Garageband on the Mac and Cubase/Reaper on the PC, I have yet to properly experience ProTools although I want to.

[rumborak]

I use Sonar, it's quite good. As many people have said, the learning curve is pretty high on those things, so you'll hate any other tool than the one you're used to.
ProTools is too expensive for my taste, and for the stuff I'm doing.

rumborak