Why Is America So Isolated?

[rumborak]

Not only that, but that sort of mindset is the recipe for future failure. Only the countries that can adapt themselves to the changing circumstances will emerge intact. The others are roadkill.

rumborak

[Ryzee]

Or those stupid numbers from "Lost".  You know EVERYONE used those for a while!

Don't mess with those numbers, man.  They're cursed.

[Super Dude]

Not only that, but that sort of mindset is the recipe for future failure. Only the countries that can adapt themselves to the changing circumstances will emerge intact. The others are roadkill.

rumborak

Yep. Like I said earlier in the thread I think, Qing China is a prime example of this. The Chinese empire was the richest country in the world for 2,000 years, and their inability to move from thinking of China as the literal and political center of the earth was their doom.

[Chino]

For the longest time the United States boasted that we were the greatest country on Earth, as well as all that God bless America stuff. We made it seem that we could do without any other countries were were the elite members of the human race. I think a lot of people in other countries just saw that as selfish and narrow minded.

[Super Dude]

And France used to be the same way (actually, they're still pretty much like that ). And then Napoleon happened and they lost the whole fuckin' thing. I mean think of it: French used to be a lingua franca, the way Latin once was and the way English is. It doesn't last, especially when you get arrogant.

Oh, and the British Empire too. But don't tell Andy.

[gmillerdrake]

.  When people from other countries come to the US, we fully expect them to speak in English. 

I don't expect a non US citizen who is here on vacation/visiting to speak English. When I EXPECT english to be spoken is when you are a US citizen that lives here.....plans on living here for some time. The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
  Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me. If you don't want to 'be' American, then don't come here. But for all the 'bad' crap that gets talked about America, there sure as heck is an awful lot of people both legally and illegally clammoring to get into this country.....WAY more than ANY other country in the WORLD.
  This picking on/trash talking/etc. of America not only in this Forum/thread but on a national level is complete BS! If you want to believe that America is some big, bad country then go ahead but you're a fool. Like every country the US has it's fair share of idiots who get elected to power but all in all when history pans itself out and all of our bodies have returned to the earth,  America will remain the beacon of HOPE it has been since it's inception. 


 

For the longest time the United States boasted that we were the greatest country on Earth, as well as all that God bless America stuff. We made it seem that we could do without any other countries were were the elite members of the human race. I think a lot of people in other countries just saw that as selfish and narrow minded.

We still are. Which country consistently gets looked to when (pic a country) is in trouble or NEEDS something? It's not Russia, it's not Switzerland or Brazil. AMERICA...every time, all the time. I think where you use the word 'arrogant' I use the word 'confident'. And we should be. Other countries, especially the middle east look at us with envy and jealousy because our system DOES work. Like I said, there are flaws but it's not the system it's the tards' elected to govern the system and they will come and go.
  There is no denying America is at a cross roads of sorts. And I personally am sick and tired of people declaring America 'dead' or 'secondary' to (insert country). China is overhyped and thanks to the media you'd never know that they really don't 'own' that much of America....a very small percentage. And, if it weren't for America and some ridiculously unfair trade agreement that we (for whatever reason) have allowed to go on for too long, China is still in the 19th century. They should be kissing our butts for ushering them into the 21st century and we should start to hold thier feet to the fire of the insanly lop sided 'trade' agreement in place.

[rumborak]

Other countries, especially the middle east look at us with envy and jealousy because our system DOES work.

Sorry, but that's plain not true. Again, it *used* to be that way. I don't know how much you travel yourself, but I can say that I am usually better off saying I'm from Germany than saying I'm from the US. When I mention Germany there's usually a "oooh, German! Good country, nice people, good cars!". When I mention US I usually get a lot of "lol, wtf is going on over there?!". There is a good amount of *respect* for the US, but envy? That element is no longer there, sorry.

From another personal anecdote, I and 2 other Germans I know have been gently nudged to apply for security clearance. However, I would entail destroying our German passports (a requirement I fully understand from the Security Office's point of view). But, all 3 of us have the notion of "you know what, I'll hang on to my passport. Who knows what'll happen here in the next 10 years".

  There is no denying America is at a cross roads of sorts. And I personally am sick and tired of people declaring America 'dead' or 'secondary' to (insert country). China is overhyped and thanks to the media you'd never know that they really don't 'own' that much of America....a very small percentage. And, if it weren't for America and some ridiculously unfair trade agreement that we (for whatever reason) have allowed to go on for too long, China is still in the 19th century. They should be kissing our butts for ushering them into the 21st century and we should start to hold thier feet to the fire of the insanly lop sided 'trade' agreement in place.

Haha, are you seriously complaining about China using their strength to muscle favorable conditions for themselves? That's what the US has done for decades.

rumborak

[the Catfishman]

yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.

[gmillerdrake]

Haha, are you seriously complaining about China using their strength to muscle favorable conditions for themselves? That's what the US has done for decades.

Well not really...it's more about being annoyed that we (the US) allow such a lop sided trade agreement to continue. I wish I understood globabl economics in full detail....I do not. My brain just isn't 'mathmatically' inclined. But my understanding from what I do gleen from articles and conversation is that China does indeed 'cook the books' and use underhanded methods as far as valuing/devaluing thier currency to gain more power.

And concerning America's portrayal on a global level, it's not suprising that Europeans have that view of America.....it's two different styles of thinking and ways of life. But I wouldn't eliminate envy and jealousy from that equation so quickly.....I suppose we can just agree to disagree on that.

[rumborak]

And concerning America's portrayal on a global level, it's not suprising that Europeans have that view of America.....it's two different styles of thinking and ways of life. But I wouldn't eliminate envy and jealousy from that equation so quickly.....I suppose we can just agree to disagree on that.

You might have misunderstood me. This was non-Europeans commenting on their views of the US.

rumborak

[gmillerdrake]

yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.

Rebulding all of Europe after their presence was the lynch pin in stopping insane German and Italian Dictators who were hell bent on killing as many people as they could and ruling the rest......that was shady.
Rebuilding Japan after they decided they'd sucker punch the big kid...essentially placing thier industry in a better position than our own....that was shady.
Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

[rumborak]

Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

rumborak

[Super Dude]

Which country consistently gets looked to when (pic a country) is in trouble or NEEDS something? It's not Russia, it's not Switzerland or Brazil. AMERICA...every time, all the time.

Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

And this betrays a very feeble understanding of the flurry of international activity that actually occurs when any of these crises arises, and the fact that the U.S. is actually usually the most reluctant one with regards to acting, except when someone directly attacks us.

[gmillerdrake]

Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

rumborak

Take a look at the absolute terms though. US, $28.67 Billion. Next up, France at $12.43 Billion....the US doubled the next in line. Considering the amount of money given, the percentage of income graph doesn't mean as much. It'd be nice to give more sure...but I don't think that doubling the next closets 'donor' is anything to be ashamed about.

And Super Dude.....the US is first in line time and time again. Sri Lanka didn't attack us and we were the largest contributors there both governmentally and by private donors. And that happens in almost every natural disaster scenario. I'm not saying other countries don't do it at all, my point is that America leads the way virtually every time.

[the Catfishman]

yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.

Rebulding all of Europe after their presence was the lynch pin in stopping insane German and Italian Dictators who were hell bent on killing as many people as they could and ruling the rest......that was shady.
Rebuilding Japan after they decided they'd sucker punch the big kid...essentially placing thier industry in a better position than our own....that was shady.
Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

that's why I said 'since', the power the US got after WWII (free to divide the world in new spheres of influence) has lead to the US having it's hands in pretty much everything and (understandably) setting up beneficial deals all around the world. Pretty much all foreign affairs the US has been involved in since WWII were only to serve the economic interest of the US, which is not something I blame the US for doing, but don't try to paint it as if the US is some sort of bright shining light of solidarity and goodness.

[the Catfishman]

Take a look at the absolute terms though. US, $28.67 Billion. Next up, France at $12.43 Billion....the US doubled the next in line. Considering the amount of money given, the percentage of income graph doesn't mean as much. It'd be nice to give more sure...but I don't think that doubling the next closets 'donor' is anything to be ashamed about.

what? haha, have you seen the size of France compared to the US?

[Omega]

The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
  Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me.

Not the case at all. Do you expect such recent migrants into the US to fully assimilate into the typical "American" (whatever that means) society in a matter of mere years or mere decades? That's ludicrous. I assure you that the "early" immigrants didn't start speaking perfect English when they disembarked from the boat from X country to arrive at X city in the US. Most of the early migrants didn't even bother to speak English well, if at all. The assimilation takes generations to "complete," if you will.

And all this pre-supposes that these recent migrants aren't trying to assimilate into the American society. As most of them will tell you, they are actually attempting to do so and while the assimilation may obviously not be too readily perceived in the adult migrants who just recently migrated to the US, there's an overwhelming chance that their children will exhibit sings of at least some, if not total assimilation into the US culture.

And even if they weren't, is assimilation into a generally perceived notion of "American culture" mandatory for those who live in the United States? Should we round up all the people in the US who we deem "Unamerican"?

[gmillerdrake]

The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
  Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me.

Not the case at all. Do you expect such recent migrants into the US to fully assimilate into the typical "American" (whatever that means) society in a matter of mere years or mere decades? That's ludicrous. I assure you that the "early" immigrants didn't start speaking perfect English when they disembarked from the boat from X country to arrive at X city in the US. Most of the early migrants didn't even bother to speak English well, if at all. The assimilation takes generations to "complete," if you will.

And all this pre-supposes that these recent migrants aren't trying to assimilate into the American society. As most of them will tell you, they are actually attempting to do so and while the assimilation may obviously not be too readily perceived in the adult migrants who just recently migrated to the US, there's an overwhelming chance that their children will exhibit sings of at least some, if not total assimilation into the US culture.

And even if they weren't, is assimilation into a generally perceived notion of "American culture" mandatory for those who live in the United States? Should we round up all the people in the US who we deem "Unamerican"?

No round ups. There is no way to deem someone un-American. My point is the early immigrants showed signs of 'wanting' to 'become' American. But when I see stories that an American flag is torn town at a High School in Arizona and replaced by a Mexican flag or council members in a Texas city are suing because English is the official language of that town....things like that bother me...call me what you will but a Mexican flag has no business being flown above a High School even if the student population is 99.999% Mexican immigrants. This is America....fly your mexican flag from your porch...more power to you, celebrate your heritage. But not at an institution or something along those lines.
   I agree that 'assimilation' doesn't happen over night or in a couple years. My point is the desire is not there like it once was, and if you don't desire to 'Americanize' and your desire is to come here and force laws and regulations to assimilate to your 'old' culture or countries way of being....then please leave.

[Adami]

I think the obvious solution is to give Texas back to Mexico. Everyone wins.



Except Mexico.

[the Catfishman]

I'm not an expert on US history but wasn't Arizona part of mexico only 150 years ago (and only a US state for 100 years or so)? that's only a few generations, is it really that weird that there is a lot of Mexican nationalistic feelings and can you really blame them?

[gmillerdrake]

I'm not an expert on US history but wasn't Arizona part of mexico only 150 years ago (and only a US state for 100 years or so)? that's only a few generations, is it really that weird that there is a lot of Mexican nationalistic feelings and can you really blame them?

No I can't. I understand the sentiment. But the point is that it isn't Mexico any longer. That's why I say celebrate your heritage in any form you want but when it comes to American rules/regulatioins etc. don't try and force America to change for your sake.....it's the other way around.

I think the obvious solution is to give Texas back to Mexico. Everyone wins.
Except Mexico.

I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.

Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?

[Adami]

And then rape of them of their languages and cultures and force them to become "american" and speak english?


Yea, no thanks.

[jsem]

Absolute war against the drug cartels? That would be absolutely TERRIBLE.

[gmillerdrake]

And then rape of them of their languages and cultures and force them to become "american" and speak english?

O.K, maybe not such a great idea.

[Omega]

My point is the early immigrants showed signs of 'wanting' to 'become' American. But when I see stories that an American flag is torn town at a High School in Arizona and replaced by a Mexican flag or council members in a Texas city are suing because English is the official language of that town....things like that bother me...call me what you will but a Mexican flag has no business being flown above a High School even if the student population is 99.999% Mexican immigrants. This is America....fly your mexican flag from your porch...more power to you, celebrate your heritage. But not at an institution or something along those lines.
   I agree that 'assimilation' doesn't happen over night or in a couple years. My point is the desire is not there like it once was, and if you don't desire to 'Americanize' and your desire is to come here and force laws and regulations to assimilate to your 'old' culture or countries way of being....then please leave.

On what basis are you claiming to know that current immigrants don't want to "become American"? On some fringe examples or some sensationalized news stories written to spur a knee-jerk reaction from super-conservatives to demand that we "kick de dam' Mexi-kins out"? Of course you're bound to find examples of migrants who don't want to assimilate into the society or who behave irrationally, yet you can't let these examples convince you that the majority of immigrants are like this. The overwhelming majority of immigrants today make vast efforts to assimilate as best as possible (they're smart enough to know that doing so would work in their favor). You're letting a few rotten apples ruin the bunch.

And who is to say that Latin Americans -- specifically Mexicans -- aren't willing or able to assimilate into the US? After all, it has happened before. After the United States took the lands from Mexico in the wake of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the United States granted citizenship to Mexicans who where living in the lands that were formally Mexico's (California, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico etc). The descendants of these peoples eventually, through generations, came to assimilate into the American society so fully that they now don't speak a lick of Spanish, think of eating Taco Bell as a "genuine" Mexican cuisine experience  , and have all but forgotten how to pronounce their own last name of Rodriguez or Munoz, etc.

Why the history lesson? Because it is fairly clear that assimilation is inevitable, you simply must be patient and accept the possibility that you may not witness full assimilation of one people in your lifetime.

[gmillerdrake]

On some fringe examples or some sensationalized news stories written to spur a knee-jerk reaction from super-conservatives

Guilty as charged

[Omega]

I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.

Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?

I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".

[gmillerdrake]

I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.

Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?

I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".

They are pretty brutal though. I can't recall which network it was, but I watched one of those 'specials' about the Mexican drug cartels and they are friggin' BRUTAL! Killing friends and families of any people who cross them. They are what the mafia was x1000....unchecked and unchallenged.
  Sure the demand from America will always be there and if it isn't Mexican drug lords it'll be some other country's drug lords. Point is, those guys make living in some Mexican cities very hazardous.
And if the American teen who smokes weed was smart, he'd just grow his own.

[Omega]

Absolutely. Things are bad and only getting worse with those damn cartels. Many Mexicans simply want to go back to the good ol' days of when the Mexican Gov and the Cartels had an agreement to let the drug mafias transport and sell their "goods" to the border unhampered by the government in exchange for no killings, execution, shootings, gun battles, etc.

[gmillerdrake]

Absolutely. Things are bad and only getting worse with those damn cartels. Many Mexicans simply want to go back to the good ol' days of when the Mexican Gov and the Cartels had an agreement to let the drug mafias transport and sell their "goods" to the border unhampered by the government in exchange for no killings, execution, shootings, gun battles, etc.

Is that the issue? The Mexican government has decided to 'crack down' on the cartels instead of turning thier head to it?

[Omega]

Pretty much. The US urged Mexico to do so, though. And when I said urged, I mean "do this, or we'll stop buying x commodity from you". Turns out it wasn't the best decision. Not for Mexico and her people, at least.

[Super Dude]

I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.

Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?

I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".

They are pretty brutal though. I can't recall which network it was, but I watched one of those 'specials' about the Mexican drug cartels and they are friggin' BRUTAL! Killing friends and families of any people who cross them. They are what the mafia was x1000....unchecked and unchallenged.
  Sure the demand from America will always be there and if it isn't Mexican drug lords it'll be some other country's drug lords. Point is, those guys make living in some Mexican cities very hazardous.
And if the American teen who smokes weed was smart, he'd just grow his own.

Or maybe we could legalize and heavily regulate marijuana production and consumption (a legal smoking age like tobacco and drinking, sell it only at pharmacies and require a bunch of paperwork for them to sell it, get the FDA in there, etc.), and therefore eliminate the cartel gangs' main source of business.

[Omega]

Or maybe we could legalize and heavily regulate marijuana production and consumption (a legal smoking age like tobacco and drinking, sell it only at pharmacies and require a bunch of paperwork for them to sell it, get the FDA in there, etc.), and therefore eliminate the cartel gangs' main source of business.

As much as I detest the idea of legalizing drugs, I'd ultimately have to be in favor with this. The only foreseeable problem is that the cartels, after marijuana is hypothetically legalized in the US and still hungry for power, will either simply concentrate on selling other non-legal drugs to Gringoes (meth, coke, etc), sell marijuana at an even cheaper rate than legal marijuana (or try to sell it to minors), or turn to more gruesome methods of making money (more ransom kidnappings, blackmail, etc).

[Super Dude]

I mean yeah, I personally wouldn't use and will probably raise my kids not to, but honestly it would work a helluva lot better than anything we're doing now. And I don't know about cartels providing cheaper weed; as it is, illegal weed is pretty expensive from what my using friends tell me. It can only go down from here. Not to mention that with the FDA involved, truly dangerous things like lacing other hard drugs into the substances sold at pharmacies can't take place.

[kári]

Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.

Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

rumborak

How the hell is Belgium 14th in absolute terms?