All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread

[hefdaddy42]

That's awesome.

If I may ask, what do church bands usually do with demo recordings? I am a little outside the realm of the worship music world, so I don't know too much about it.

The only reason we made one is that a pretty big Christian band (Newsong) was going to play in our small town to open up a new amphitheater, and we did the demo to send to them to try to get the chance to open up for them.

It worked.  We got to meet and hang out with them, and in opening up for them, we played in front of the largest crowd I've ever played for (around 4,000 people).  I still think about that night.  Very, very exciting.  I was playing drums at the time.

hefdaddy's fun fact of the day: The concert was in August of 2005.  Dream Theater's album Octavarium was released in early June.  Several of us in the band were DT fans, and we thought that the song "I Walk Beside You" had lyrics that were "close enough" for us to get away with doing it at this performance, so we talked the rest of the band into it, learned it, and pulled it off.  In doing so, we actually played it live before Dream Theater did.  They did some European festivals in June and July, and then Gigantour (where they focused on a heavier setlist) from late July to early September.  "I Walk Beside You" didn't debut in DT's setlist until the second date of the first real leg of the Octavarium tour, in late September.  So, we were one up.

[Orbert]

That's pretty cool! 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I find myself listening to songs we're going to be doing and saying "It's a damn good thing we're bringing another guitarist on board".  Like Def Lep's Hysteria.  Can it be done with one guitar?  Yes, I've seen it done.  Can it be done proper justice with one guitar?  No.  Or Comin' Home by Cinderella.  Great harmony leads, that should not be done by one guitar.  Plus the fact of how much it fills in during solos.

[Orbert]

Absolutely.

I've seen very, very few cover bands with only a single guitarist (and no keys) which I think did an adequate job, let alone a good job, covering songs like that.  When a solo comes up, everything just sounds empty with nothing filling in the chords.  And there's the harmony leads, and there's even songs that just plain sound better, fuller, with two guitars (or guitar +  keys).

On the other hand, I was at a place one time with our old guitarist Steve, and the band there was just a four-piece (singer, guitar, bass, drums) doing exactly that.  With only a single guitar, any time a solo came up, we both thought it sounded like shit.  It was like a huge hole in the sound suddenly opened up.  But the crowd in general loved them and didn't seem to give a shit.  All they heard was a great solo and it didn't bother them at all that there was no rhythm guitar behind it.  Harmony leads were even worse, with only one line being played and no chords behind, but again, the crowd didn't seem to care.

I hate to fall back on the cliché that musicians and non-musicians listen with different ears, but it does seem to be the case.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

It absolutely IS the case.  We hear how incomplete a picture a single guitar paints, where the crowd just see that there's a picture, period.

[hefdaddy42]

So if two guitars are good, then three are even better, right?

Eagles, Outlaws, and Lynyrd Skynyrd, I'm looking at you.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Meh.  Not necessarily.  If the singer can play some rhythm guitar one a song or two where it would really make a huge difference, then yeah, but for the most part two SHOULD be fine.  Take Hysteria for example.  I've actually had to go to looking at live performances to figure out what parts to play.  The choruses have a cool arpeggiated part going on, that I think is doubled an octave lower, with power chords in the background.  The outro on the studio recording has four different guitar parts going all at once.  The arpeggiated clean part that makes up most of the song, the lead part, random crystal clean chords here and there, and a rhythm part chugging on a slightly higher D note.  That last part is buried pretty well in the mix.  It does something similar in the second half of the second verse.  It's just enough to add a certain something to the sound, but unless you're really paying attention, you don't recognize WHAT it is that's going on.  They do the same thing in the second and last chorus (NOT the first) of Pour Some Sugar on Me.  There's a single note way in the background that's just chugged on in 16th notes.  Again, very subtle, but it's there and it's just part of what makes their studio recordings sound so huge.

My old singer loved to play a lot of guitar throughout the night, which was fine, but it limited his movement.  He couldn't move around and entertain as much.  We really only NEEDED him to play on 2-3 songs, but it ended up being a lot more, unfortunately.

[mikeyd23]

Three guitar players is where it usually gets real tricky. Everyone has to be very deliberate about parts, who is playing in what register when, when to split, when to play together, when to sit out...etc... Basically all three players have to have a level of taste and tack on the instrument.

I used to be in a southern rock/country rock cover band that had three guitar players (I was the lead player), a keyboardist, bass player, drummer, and lead singer. And it worked, but a lot practice time was literally dividing up parts so things didn't sound crazy all the time.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I always try to take the Stanley/Frehley approach.  Play the same thing, but in different octaves or different voicings, so it sounds more fresh.

[hefdaddy42]

We had a lot of 3-guitar lineups in our church band.  We didn't normally have any problems; two of us (including me) would play acoustic, and one electric player.  Usually with us acoustics, one would play open and the other capoed, or both capoed at different spots, or something.  And the electric player was easily the best of us, so when he wasn't playing leads and fills, he had no problem finding something else to do.

[Orbert]

We were flipping channels the other night and my wife stumbled upon a recent thing with Neil Young with a good six or eight other folks up there all strumming guitars.  She just said "Why would you need so many guitars?  At some point, isn't it just redundant?"

I looked, and there's Neil, a couple others playing acoustic, and a few others playing electric.  They looked like all different kinds of guitars (obviously I'm no expert), so I said something about how they all have different sounds, and when they blend together you get something really full and practically orchestral sounding.  But yeah, it's basically overkill as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't do much more for me than just Neil solo singing and playing the song.  But I guess if you really love guitars, then it sounds awesome.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Well, that's kinda like saying why do you need more than one voice in a choir?  Because the effect created when you have several of them doing something in unison is pretty cool sounding.  Each voice may be singing the same thing, but they're all going to start and end at different times (fractions of seconds here), they're all going to be microtones apart from one another, enough for effect, but not enough to be out of tune, they'll all have different vibrato speeds, etc.

[Orbert]

It is kinda like that.  The effect created by multiple voices, even in unison, is much fuller, definitely bigger sounding.

Watching all those guys strumming, I thought it was pretty cool, and as I said, it probably sounded pretty awesome, but I wondered at what point you can't really hear yourself any more.  Two guitars, you can hear each one.  Three, four, sure, if your sound man is good.  But by time you have a dozen guys all strumming, I think you're after a different effect.  At that point, I think the idea is to create a "choir" of guitars, all blending together to where the idea is not to distinguish the individuals, but instead dig the huge sound created by all of them together.  But on top of all of this, Neil was singing, so that's why I said it kinda still came down to a voice-and-guitar song.  The guitars I'm sure sounded glorious all blending together, but it was still just a backdrop to the vocals.

But the "point" of the performance and arrangement will be different depending on who you ask.  For some I'm sure it was just that Neil wanted all these folks up there with him because it's cool to all get up there and play some songs together.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The funny thing is, that's the whole point of using a chorus pedal for guitar.  To make it sound fuller, like more than one guitar.

[Orbert]

Interesting.  I guess I've always known that, but never really thought of it that way.  Chorusing definitely makes it sound fuller, and of course having more than one guitar makes it sound fuller, but I've never thought of chorusing as specifically trying to make it sound like more than one guitar; just making it sound fuller.

Back in the 80's, we tried adding some effects to my keyboards to juice up the sound.  The Prophet was fine, but my piano was a cheapo Yamaha thing with only a couple of built-in voices and not much else on board, so we tried running it through a chorus pedal.  It sounded bigger, fuller... and truly horrible.  We tried various settings on both the pedal and keyboard, starting with as clean a sound as possible, trying various levels of each, etc., but somehow we could not make it sound any better, or even good.

Someone suggested that since it's a "guitar pedal" that it won't work with keyboards.  I nearly slapped him.  Maybe I did; I don't remember now.  But something about the way the cheapo Yamaha generated sound just did not work with external effects.  Maybe because it had its own built-in effects or some kind of harmonic enhancers that caused the chorusing to go nuts.  It's was very odd, and ultimately disappointing.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I've actually considered doing the same with my cheap POS Casio to see if it would sound any better.  Right now we run it right into the PA, since it's really only used on one song right now.  If we don't find some more songs with keyboard in them, we may have to dump it.

[Orbert]

I hadn't thought about the pedal experiment with my Yamaha until you mentioned chorus pedals.  Two things come to mind: (1) When the band broke up, Pete ended up with my chorus pedal.  How the fuck did that happen?  It was my pedal!  (2) If you do end up running your Casio through a chorus or any other effects, let me know how that goes.  I'm curious.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

It's a Wal-Mart special Casio.  The headphone out jack serves as a "line out".    My bass player actually has a better keyboard he uses for gigs, even though it's decades old.  The Ensoniq SQ-80:



But yeah, I'm gonna try out the Casio through some sort of chorus effect and see if it sounds any good.

[hefdaddy42]

Good luck.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

So as soon as we get another guitarist on board (auditioning one tomorrow), and we're all comfortable with doing some openers, we've got a set list ready:

Look What the Cat Dragged In
Gypsy Road
S*x Type Thing
Down Boys
Down on Me
Paralyzer
Looks That Kill
Slither
House of Pain
Slide It In
Bark at the Moon
Crazy Bitch
Shoot to Thrill (Or Shook Me All Nite Long)

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

It would appear the we have settled upon the name "Scarlett".

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

F*ck.

It's amazing the difference one day makes.

I wake up today, happy, looking forward to going to the gym tonight and watching Survivor.  Excited about having a really stellar band that's getting off the ground.

Then my drummer calls me.

"Did you see what (singer) said to (random chick who I don't know) last night?"  Who?  He explains and I say "Funny you say that, I got a friend request from her this morning, and saw that she is a singer in another local band, but didn't think much more of it."

He goes on:  Apparently, our singer must have been private messaging her on FB and whenever she didn't get back to him soon enough (apparently she'd gone to the bathroom), he gets all huffy, and starts being a dick.  It escalates.  Considerably.  So she decides to screencap the entire thing and post it to her FB wall telling anybody who reads it to avoid this guy.  Her last post to him (he'd blocked her by then) was something along the lines of "Good luck getting gigs with your band".



All I can figure is he was drinking.  Because last November, I found a post on his FB page where he put up a long apology for drinking too much and making an ass of himself at a benefit gig.  Finally, FINALLY, something goes right and the planets start to align, and I'm genuinely f*cking EXCITED about a band for the first time in a long time, and now this.  This chick is FB friends with a LOT of people on the local scene.  A lot of people who will see this and be all WTF?  Let him go and we've lost one of the only people in the area who can sing this kinda stuff.  Keep him and we risk looking like shitbags who condone this kind of behavior.

I'm hurt, deeply.  I know a thousand worse things could be happening to me right now, I know, it isn't like somebody died, but this is a huge blow.  All morning, I have been a nervous wreck and upset and lost.  I had to GTFO at lunch and just go next door for a beer to try to calm down a little.  He's messaged the rest of the guys in the band this morning, discussing songs to add, like nothing happened.  He likely doesn't know she's posted this and that the drummer and I know about it.  I HAVE to talk to him and tell him we know.  But sadly, I feel I need a few drinks in me.  I'm a bit of a pushover sometimes and I cannot let this kinda behavior slide.  My last singer was an unpredictable person when he got drunk, and he would rant at people on FB, making the rest of us look bad by proxy.  I cannot allow that to happen again, always walking on egg shells, wondering when the next f*ckup will come.

I do not know if this is recoverable.  I'm pissed, hurt, upset, devastated.

[Orbert]

That sucks.  Why is it so fucking hard to get a band together, a good band, and keep it together?  Oh yeah, because other people are involved.  And you never know for sure what you're gonna get when other people are involved.

It's kinda like last fall when my band was finally starting to score the real gigs.  Actual money, actual gigs in nice places, so of course the inner tensions within the band finally came to a head and we lost two people.  It was a huge blow, but somehow very, very similar to what had happened before, when we finally started gigging and suddenly our guitarist lost his shit and quit out of nowhere.  I can't wait to see what kind of shit fate will throw at us next, because I'm sure it will be amazing.  As much as I'd love to think we'll finally make it, I honestly do not believe we will.  Something will happen; it always does.

But what can you do?  You gotta keep playing.  You gotta keep rocking and rolling.  It's a blow, for sure, but you gotta keep pushing forward.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I'm floored, because he's a super nice guy.  Both practices we've had have been fantastic and he is prefect for this kind of music.  We auditioned a guitarist on Saturday.  He's in.  Turns out the guy can pull random harmonies out of his ass.  I asked if he could reproduce certain harmonies if I told him the note or played it for him and I said "for example, if I said 'the low harmony on Slide it In is a D', and this is how the note soun..." and he just sang the note.  Before I could really even play it.  So me, him, and the singer tried it a cappella with the melody and my high harmony and it was like magic.  Seriously, magic.  Nobody I've ever been in a band with has been THIS capable of harmonizing so effortlessly.  So I'm flying high since then and now this.  Seriously, WTF.

Yeah, I get it, we DO have to keep pushing forward, but I mean it when I say there's next to nobody in this area (that's available) that can sing this stuff, at least not to my knowledge.

[hefdaddy42]

Sounds like someone needs to put a boot in his ass.



You're doing mostly hair metal type stuff, right?  Just play it off as him being a real bad boy, not just a poser.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

It's a good angle, and would be great if we were superstars. 

[hefdaddy42]

Fake it til you make it, bro.

[Orbert]

Fake it til you make it, bro.

This.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I'm drinking heavily, but still have my wits.  Have been on the phone with him for a while and he is fucking LIT.  Has been drinking all day, apparently.  Mrs. C. is on with him now trying to talk some sense into him.  He's the victim, etc.  Keeps interrupting, unreasonable, the whole nine yards.  It almost sounds like she's making better headway with him than I was.  I think he at least knows enough not to talk shit with her.

I don't have enough alcohol for this.  Christ.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

FUCK ME, MRS. C. IS ON THE PHONE WITH HIS MOTHER!!  This is truly the stuff of legends.

[Orbert]

Okay, I'm confused.  You and Mrs. C. are talking to the singer (and his mother)?  To what end?  I thought he was basically blacklisted already, and by extension the band.

You're trying to talk him into not being such an asshole, so that maybe you (the band) can survive your singer being blacklisted?

[Adami]

Why do you have a 15 year old singing for your band?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I was trying to impress upon him the weight of what he'd done and WHY this was an issue, but he was too far fucking gone.  Blasted.  He was trying to explain something and said here, my mom can explain, so he put her on.  She confirmed that he most definitely has a drinking problem.  etc. etc.  I'm absolutely floored.  I went into this hoping it could be salvaged.  If he wakes up sober today, realizes what he's done, and tries to make amends, I think things can be fine, but I'm always going to have to worry about what happens when he's at home, drinking, and unable to control himself.  The chick he argued with even said to me "If he apologized, I would be fine, he's a great singer, and I would love to come see your band someday."  So the possibility is there for him to make it right.  But Jesus Christ, you're a grown up.  Fucking act like one.

[Orbert]

That reminds me of a story, and you'll have to forgive me because it really isn't that similar to yours and has nothing to do with music, but talking to that guy's mom reminded me of it.


Way back, after college but before "real life", some friends of mine were renting a house with a guy they'd known since they were kids.  Everyone called him Baker, his last name.  So the three of them were renting this house together, and Baker was the one who knew the landlord and stuff, so he dealt with the rent money.  Every month, Scott and Steve (my friends) would give their share to Baker, and he'd pay the rent.  Or so they thought.

One day, the landlord comes by.  I don't remember now if he had actual eviction papers with him or if he just wanted to talk, but apparently Baker had been taking the rent money and we don't know what the hell he was doing with it, but he wasn't paying the rent with it.  Now three months behind, the landlord is pissed.  Scott and Steve have been giving their money to Baker, so they can't just pull out three months' rent to placate the landlord, but they tell him that they'll talk to Baker (who wasn't home at the time), and if he could just give them three days, they will have his money.  The landlord isn't going to get his money today obviously, so he tells them that they'd better have it in three days, and leaves.

This is when I happened to stop by to hang out or whatever.  Scott is on the phone, so Steve answers the door, laughing his ass off about something.  I ask Steve what's going on.  Steve briefs me on the situation, and tells me Scott is on the phone with Baker's dad, Mr. Baker.  Scott called his daddy on him.  Having grown up together as kids, they knew Mr. Baker, and apparently the Bakers were pretty well off.  Mr. Baker told Scott that he'd take care of it, since he also knew the landlord.

Bottom line is Mr. Baker paid all the back rent, and the landlord was happy.  Scott and Steve immediately began looking for another place to live, and it turns out that Baker's name was the only one of the three on the lease.  Two other guys were originally in the house with Baker, but they moved out and that's when Scott and Steve moved in.  They moved out, leaving Baker to pay the rent by himself (or not).  And they aren't friends with Baker anymore, which is kinda sad because they'd all been buds since grade school.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Lol, being a shit bites you in the ass sometimes.

My head is spinning.  One part of me says that there's no way I should've attempted this conversation with the guy when he was clearly drunk, but the other part of me said that I couldn't go another day fretting over this and him not knowing that it's out there for the world to see that he was bring a dick.  I had to take the shot at discussing it.  I suggested that he call me when he gets home from work tonight and we're both sober and can discuss this level-headedly.  We'll see.