Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

[BlobVanDam]

Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I don't think it sounds anything like either of those.
It's just Dream Theater playing heavy metal.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies.

No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.

[GasparXR]

Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies.

No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.

I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.

Yeah, but the heavy riffs in peruvian skies don't come into the picture until after the second verse. There are certainly similar qualities in the riffs themselves, but I'm not talking about compositional similarities, I'm talking about stylistic. I just feel like As I Am is stylistically a lot like Black Album era Metallica.

[Randaran]

Honestly the only real problem I have with ANTR is the solo section. Some of the worst soloing I've heard from both JP and JR. The entire section is pointless too, it's so shoehorned. The rest of the song is ace though.

Jordan's second solo is quite poor, but the others, especially JP's first, are great. ANTR is good until JP's second solo in this section; the rest of the song loses its welcome, and goes on far too long. If they had cut out most of the the song from this point to the final heavy chorus and then shortened the outro, it would have been much better. As it is, it is a bottom 5 DT song. It feels like a 10 minute song stretched out to 16 minutes.

I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.

Not to mention that the clean guitar part is similar to Enter Sandman's opening. When I first heard PS, I thought that ES had played by accident. 

[PetFish]

No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.

This really doesn't mean anything.  Any song can be sung along to any other song, especially ones in 4:4, by simply altering tempo and/or pitch.  It's pretty cool, actually.  Here is an example:

Jimmy Fallon Sings 80s Songs to "Hammer Time"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQM6ZQZuwj4

I have a really cool fan remix of The Shattered Fortress from back when the BC&SL stems were released that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about but I can't find it on Youtube anywhere.  It has pop song references all through it from Michael Jackson to No Doubt to that "milkshake" song.  You can really tell when the pitch and/or tempo were changed to fit the song.  It's really great.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, every other song doesn't remind me of every other song. As I Am reminds me of Metallica, is all I'm saying.

[LCArenas]

Man, The Count of Tuscany hasn't aged well at all for me. It's not only the lyrics, is the song as a whole that I like less and less as time goes by. The intro and final parts are still really nice, however.







THE COUNT OF TUSCANYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

[TheGreatPretender]

Man, The Count of Tuscany hasn't aged well at all for me. It's not only the lyrics, is the song as a whole that I like less and less as time goes by. The intro and final parts are still really nice, however.







THE COUNT OF TUSCANYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

It has actually aged for me really well. The middle, the heavy chunk of it, I was never that crazy about anyway. And all the quiet, nice melodic parts, I've grown to appreciate a lot more.

[Rodni Demental]

There was hardly any nu-metal influence on ToT. There were the spoken vocals in HTF, and that's about it. I thought the concept of ToT was basically inspired by playing TGP and MoP on the SDOIT tour, so mostly Pantera and Metallica influences.
ToT is progressive metal, influenced by thrash with some hints of more modern metal influences, including to a tiny degree nu-metal. But it doesn't sound like nu-metal.

Pretty much this, and especially the bolded part. The nu-metal influences were probably there, but it doesn't necessarily make the overall product sound anything like nu-metal.

JLB's Elements of Persuasion is a much better example of nu-metal influences showing through.

Regarding 'growls' 'screams' and 'roooars' discussion, Impermanent Resonance has a nice balance. It doesn't sound like he's trying to yell me to death, it sounds like an expressive quality of the vocal style and it is enunciated well enough that I can understand (which tends to be an issue with these vocal styles, can't understand without a the lyric page or booklet accompaniment). Undertow is a good example of the more finely tuned harsh vocals on IR. Those screams are not too obnoxious, but still powerful and effective within the music.

Also, ANTR isn't that bad... As I've said before, BL&SL was practically my first DT album and I can't remember thinking anything of that blast beat/growl section at first, perhaps other than the thought that it was a bit different to the rest of the song but nothing too extreme. And I still don't have a problem with it. I can see why people feel the song might be overall; a bit bloated and that some parts might overstay their welcome but it has it's redeeming qualities that almost make up for it in my opinion. Besides, the music tells a story of a journey or something.. probably.. 

EDIT: As for TCOT well that was a total grower. I didn't like it at first, it was that one song at the end of the album that didn't click in some way surprisingly. It actually took a friend of mine getting his mind blown by the intro and build up to make me pay more attention and appreciate it. This friend was practically obsessed with the song so I started to hear it more often then it grew on me. Honestly, it was the chorus that put me off. I just couldn't buy into it and it sounded embarrassing. But eventually, I decided that was a silly notion because it has to be some kind of personal insecurity to feel embarrassed for a piece of music because it is how it is so either learn to love it the way it is or don't bother listening to it anymore and deliberately putting yourself through a questionable experience.

[Outcrier]

Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something 

[TheGreatPretender]

Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something 

Holy crap, THANK YOU! At least SOMEONE gets it!

[PetFish]

I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something 

In terms of the riffage and the overall 'feel', definitely sounds like a long-lost 'bro.  The question is... do they hug when they see each other or do they shake hands?  I say "Brothers don't shake hands... brothers gotta hug!"

[TheGreatPretender]

In terms of the riffage and the overall 'feel', definitely sounds like a long-lost 'bro.  The question is... do they hug when they see each other or do they shake hands?  I say "Brothers don't shake hands... brothers gotta hug!"

I think they hug. The older one might be a bit more rough around the edges, a bit of a meathead, and the younger might be more of an intellectual, but they're kind of like Dean and Sam Winchester, I think.

[Mosh]

I don't think the Enter Sandman comparison is as ridiculous as some make it out to be. I don't know if I'd cite a specific song, but there's a definite Metallica meets DT thing happening in As I Am. Right down to the drum beat.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think the Enter Sandman comparison is as ridiculous as some make it out to be. I don't know if I'd cite a specific song, but there's a definite Metallica meets DT thing happening in As I Am. Right down to the drum beat.

The drum beat is literally the most basic alternating bass/snare drum beat in existence in rock/metal. I could also point to 100 AC/DC songs with the same drum beat. It just happens to be a similar tempo to Enter Sandman that also uses the same drum beat.

Musically, it's mostly not Metallica at all imo, aside from the riff. The main riff certainly could be, but OTOH no more specifically Metallica than many other metal bands. Chugging metal riff in standard metal scale (don't know the name of it, but basically minor with the flattened 2nd) with flattened fifth note. That could be any metal band. Yeah, Enter Sandman has a prominent flattened fifth in the riff too, but that's where the comparisons end with that song.
That opening slow riff is straight from Black Sabbath (the song, and the band), and the main riff is a sped up variant of that, inspired by thrash in general, including Metallica who have been one of DT's bigger influences, so comparing that to Metallica isn't ridiculous at all. Enter Sandman isn't a Metallica song I'd cite as similar in style though.

Beyond that, the vocal melodies are nothing like Metallica. Hetfield's signature is grunting out the same few notes (basically the root, third and seventh below the root), while As I Am covers a much larger full octave range covering minor and mixolydian scales for a very different feel to what Metallica does.
And then there's the low-key prechorus with the stick hit drum beat, the softly spoken vocals and the 3 part harmony section, and the half time feel chorus. None of it is reminiscent of Metallica.

There are plenty of DT sections and songs that show strong influence from Metallica, but I've never heard any strong similarity between As I Am and Enter Sandman, or for the most part Metallica in general. Change "As I Am" to "Constant Motion" and get back to me.

[Mosh]

Ultimately I think it's one of those "you either hear it or you don't" things. You're definitely right about the song not being written specifically in Metallica's style, yet the tone of the song is reminiscent of Metallica to me. And yea that locrian mode has been a metal staple since Black Sabbath, yet DT's use of it in this song screams Metallica to me. Also, not gonna lie, I hear JLB channeling Hetfield at times.

On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go.

[BlobVanDam]

On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go.

Now I know you're just messing with me. Come on!

[bl5150]

Creeping Motion 

[BlobVanDam]

Constant Disposable Motion of Heroes With No Remorse

[TheCountOfNYC]

Chugging metal riff in standard metal scale (don't know the name of it, but basically minor with the flattened 2nd) with flattened fifth note.

It's called Locrian mode. It's essentially the major scale starting and ending on the seventh degree.

Now for some controversial opinions:

-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.

-Dream Theater's music without Portnoy seems less focused to my ear. I don't know what it is, but the songs don't flow as well. (They're still great songs though).

-Octavarium is Dream Theater's third best album.

-The Count of Tuscany is better than the DT epics excluding Octavarium and A Change of Seasons.

-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

[abydos]

On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go.

Now I know you're just messing with me. Come on!

Where is that YT video of some guy (maybe adam?) imitating Petrucci with riffs back to back from some metallica song and constant motion that sounded pretty much identical where you need it? xD

-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.

I guess there's a first time for everything. What do you like more in those albums, dare I ask?

[TheCountOfNYC]

-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.

I guess there's a first time for everything. What do you like more in those albums, dare I ask?

I prefer those for two different reasons. I generally prefer it when DT is proggier than heavier. My three favorite albums are SFaM, I&W, and 8VM and while they have their heavier moments, they're more progressive than metal. Same thing with WDADU. It's a very proggy album to my ears and you can also hear the passion that comes with a band's debut album. I also like Charlie's voice. Not as much as James' voice but I still like it. I also don't mind the production. This means the two biggest complaints I have seen about the album don't bother me.

Black Clouds is a different beast. I will say that it is a very inconsistent album. I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot. Wither is okay but forgettable. However, A Nightmare to Remember, The Shattered Fortress, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany are all Top 25 DT songs for me. I also don't mind a lot of the issues that people have with this album. My biggest complaint is that Jordan's lead sound on this album is piercing in my ears. It almost hurts in headphones and other than the aforementioned be-bot, none of his solos are particularly memorable. John's guitar playing on the other hand is amazing. I think other than SFaM and I&W, this is his best album. TSF and TBoT are Top 5 JP solos for me and his riffs are awesome throughout. His solo is the high point in Wither.

I can see why people really enjoy Awake, and I do think it's a great album (every DT album is), but it doesn't do it for me. I feel like the keyboards were an afterthought on this album, which might have been a result of what was going on with Kevin at the time. Space-Dye Vest is an exception with this. I absolutely hate the drum sound on this album (funny how the three worst albums drum sound wise are the three that Tama drums aren't being used). After an album like Images & Words, for them to jump to an album that sounds like Awake is very jarring and it feels very unwelcoming as someone else on this forum said. I rank this album 7th or 8th in my list.

I also would like to add a few more opinions that I forgot to put in my first post:

-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

-You Not Me really isn't that bad.

-Enigma Machine is the best song on DT12

[Rodni Demental]

-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wasn't too thrown off by anything you said until this. 

I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot.

This surprises me though. But I like Be-bot too. 

-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

This, definitely! 

So why don't you like TGP?

[TheCountOfNYC]

-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wasn't too thrown off by anything you said until this. 

I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot.

This surprises me though. But I like Be-bot too. 

-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

This, definitely! 

So why don't you like TGP?

It's not that I don't like TGP. It's a great song. I just enjoy the other five songs on 6DOIT more. The problem with picking favorites is that you're gonna have things ranked lower than others which makes it look like you dislike them. It's like that with more than just music. I like buffalo wings more than cheeseburgers but I still really like cheeseburgers. I will however give my critique of the song. As I said when talking about Awake, I prefer DT's proggier side to their metal side and TGP is more straight up metal. I also don't like the rap influence in it. There's nothing wrong with rap (Eminem could be considered my guilty pleasure) but I don't think it was executed all that well in this song. It's the second worst part of the 12SS (This Dying Soul is worse but still good). The thing is, Dream Theater doesn't have a bad song. I would rather listen to A Rite of Passage or You Not Me than anything being played on the radio today.

[Outcrier]

It's not that I don't like TGP. It's a great song. I just enjoy the other five songs on 6DOIT more.

I rank TGP a close second but with SDOIT, it's just like you said, i don't dislike any song there.

There's nothing wrong with rap (Eminem could be considered my guilty pleasure) but I don't think it was executed all that well in this song.

You're right but Eminem is immensely overhyped, tons of better hip hop artists out there.

The thing is, Dream Theater doesn't have a bad song. I would rather listen to A Rite of Passage or You Not Me than anything being played on the radio today.

Well, anything pales if compared to most music played in the radio nowadays but i do think Dream Theater have bad songs.

[Dani Helios]

I think Prophets of War is a timeless classic, and that Systematic Chaos is an all round good (although not great) album.




I'm going to get perma-banned for that, aren't I...

[nikatapi]

I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

[BlobVanDam]

I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*

[nikatapi]

I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*

For some reason i was sure you'd be the first to reply 
Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.

[BlobVanDam]

I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*

For some reason i was sure you'd be the first to reply 
Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.

Of course I'm the first to reply!
I hate Derek's solo sound, but I've gone into that before many many many times. JR's Kurzweil lead was the best DT lead by far imo, but I'm not as big on his lead sound since switching to the Korgs post-8V. It's not as fat.
Derek only had about 4 sounds, which worked great on FII when you're writing the music, but worked horribly live when you're trying to recreate music that is supposed to be a little more diverse.

[mikeyd23]

I would agree that DS sounded great on FII, but live he would often fail to capture the proper sounds.  His organ work on FII sounded great though...

[KevShmev]

Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.

It probably doesn't help that Rudess is, by and large, a fairly mediocre soloist.  For as incredible a player he is, his soloing leaves a lot to be desired more often than not, usually because he goes overboard with playing super fast and trying to bend notes into submission.