Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[abydos]

I wouldn't mind someone with a bit of taste back on the keys in DT.

[adastra]

I wouldn't mind someone with a bit of taste back on the keys in DT.

Yeah, No doubt that Rudess is one of the best players out there, but I liked Kevin's and Derek's style much much more!

[erwinrafael]

The best keyboard work is in Awake.  Not best at the technical level but best in doing the stuff needed to get the message of the songs across.

[King Postwhore]

I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

[TAC]

I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

[TheGreatPretender]

I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

This, but I also happen to think that some of the patches and sounds used on that album were quite grating. Ear piercing even. Comparing Erotomania, to the keyboard tone he used in the Awake Demos... I really wish they had stuck with what they used for the demo.

[hefdaddy42]

Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think. 

[erwinrafael]

I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

So it is a controversial opinion. Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

[TheGreatPretender]

Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.

Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.

So it is a controversial opinion. Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

As for the highlighter statement that's... Controversial maybe, but it's just weird. Erotomania is nothing like I&W. In fact, if they keys on it sounded more like the keys on I&W, it would be so much better. All in all if you ask me, I&W is absolutely superior to Awake in terms of Keyboard parts, as well as the sounds and patches used. There's not one song on Awake where they keyboards sound better than any song on I&W.

[hefdaddy42]

Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.

Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.

Check out Planet X.

[bosk1]

So it is a controversial opinion. Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake. 

[TheCountOfNYC]

So it is a controversial opinion. Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.

I completely agree. The keyboard parts are a big reason why Awake is lower on my list than most people. Kevin's parts on WDaDU and I&W are fantastic, but he's the weak link on Awake.

[TheGreatPretender]

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.

I completely agree. The keyboard parts are a big reason why Awake is lower on my list than most people. Kevin's parts on WDaDU and I&W are fantastic, but he's the weak link on Awake.

Which is completely understandable, given where he was (or wasn't) mentally at that point.

[rumborak]

Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

[bosk1]

Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

[rumborak]

Interesting. Care to elaborate?
In my opinion, KM was smart enough to realize that it's a futile exercise to compete with JP in the heavy sections, so he rather worked on adding an interesting new dimension to the part. JR often doubles the guitar line, which is totally pointless.

[lithium112]

KM was pretty inconsistent in this department IMO. For example, the keyboards in The Mirror are great, but I really don't like what he does in CiaW and Lie. I would go so far as to say the keyboard ruins the latter two.

[bosk1]

Those are great examples (although I quite like Lie despite KM's keyboards).  Those parts keyboard parts actively interfere with my enjoyment of those songs. 

I like most of Jordan's work, whether it be on heavy parts or not.  And he does far more than simply double the guitar whenever there is a heavy part.  For example, I was just listening to Outcry, and there is a heavy section on the verse before the instrumental break where Jordan is doing some really cool atmospheric stuff that is far from simply doubling.  However, even when he is doubling the guitar, I often find that his parts enhance the song.

[TheGreatPretender]

Those are great examples (although I quite like Lie despite KM's keyboards).  Those parts keyboard parts actively interfere with my enjoyment of those songs.

Agreed oh so much.

Erotomania is still my primary example of bad keyboards on Awake. Both Derek and Jordan, when playing it live, used much more pleasant patches for those organs.

I like most of Jordan's work, whether it be on heavy parts or not.  And he does far more than simply double the guitar whenever there is a heavy part.  For example, I was just listening to Outcry, and there is a heavy section on the verse before the instrumental break where Jordan is doing some really cool atmospheric stuff that is far from simply doubling.  However, even when he is doubling the guitar, I often find that his parts enhance the song.

Agreed with this as well. The thing is, sometimes you don't need some atmosphere in the background, or a whole separate melody line underneath. Sometimes the guitar just needs to do its thing, and let the audience appreciate the verses. And yeah, Jordan's Snarling Pig thing doesn't completely change the song, but the thing is, if a person doesn't notice it anyway, then it doesn't take away from anything. Otherwise, it just adds a little more meat to the guitar sound without taking away from what the actual riff is. And people who aren't aware that it's something he does, might not even realize he's doing anything at all, which is the best part of the whole thing.
But yeah, there are plenty of times when Jordan either lays down great atmosphere, As I Am being my favorite example. And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.

[bosk1]

And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.

Well, interestingly, I think a lot of what he does on OTBOA is very reminiscent of KM's playing on PMU.  I couldn't tell you if they are actually similar in musical terms.  But they have a similar vibe and feel.

[TheGreatPretender]

And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.

Well, interestingly, I think a lot of what he does on OTBOA is very reminiscent of KM's playing on PMU.  I couldn't tell you if they are actually similar in musical terms.  But they have a similar vibe and feel.

Hmm... Yeah, I get what you're saying, it's underneath, and verry staccato in its style. But hey, let's not start making any more comparisons between I&W and ADTOE, lol.

[bosk1]

Hey, if they are fair comparisons, I don't see why not make them.   

[erwinrafael]

But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.

[TheGreatPretender]

But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.

Well, like I said, my biggest problem are the keyboards on Erotomania and 6:00. CIAW... They're more tolerable, or at least, I got used to them enough to enjoy them, but even that took a while. And yeah, Lie I enjoy.

[erwinrafael]

I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.

[erwinrafael]

But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.

Well, like I said, my biggest problem are the keyboards on Erotomania and 6:00. CIAW... They're more tolerable, or at least, I got used to them enough to enjoy them, but even that took a while. And yeah, Lie I enjoy.

What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.

[TheGreatPretender]

I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.

Maybe the album itself yeah, definitely has a distinct 90s sound, as it's mixed and mastered and all that. But the songs themselves, I think aged much better than on Awake. For example, hearing them live, they don't sound any more dated than anything on Awake. Metropolis, I would say has stood the test of time better than any other DT song from the 90s.

What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.

I just find them annoying. The composition is okay, and if anything, I like the organs on the Chorus, it's the opening riff where they keys are just grating.

[Rodni Demental]

I&W kinda has more interesting compositions imo, but sounds a bit thin overall on certain elements like the production compared to the monstrous Awake.

As a result, I&W I'm more likely to listen to an individual song, Awake I'm more likely to listen as a whole. I've mostly put both albums in fairly similar regard though as they were some of the last albums I got from the band too.

[Skeever]

I think JR is more hit and miss because 1.) he's more experimental and 2.) he plays more notes - waywayWAY more notes. He plays various patches on pretty much every measure of music, which is something KM and DS did not do. I think JR is just as good at playing "atmospherically" as KM was, but I think JR sometimes just diminishes those performances by playing so many other things, too. Train of Thought has some great string and synth sounds going which complement the heaviness just as well as anything KM did, but it also features all these flukey bells and whistles and, say, "gargling" noises.

[TheGreatPretender]

I&W kinda has more interesting compositions imo, but sounds a bit thin overall on certain elements like the production compared to the monstrous Awake.

As a result, I&W I'm more likely to listen to an individual song, Awake I'm more likely to listen as a whole. I've mostly put both albums in fairly similar regard though as they were some of the last albums I got from the band too.

Yeah, but I always judge an album based on its compositions rather than how it's mixed. I mean, you might think I&W sounds thin (and depending on my mood, sometimes I do find it a little thin to my taste), but you put on a song like Pull Me Under or Metropolis from one of their live recordings, and that wonderful, large, full sound is there. Especially the Score version of Metropolis, with the orchestra backing it. The first time I heard it, I didn't know they had a live orchestra, and I just couldn't place it. I was like, "My God, this sounds beyond amazing. What did they do!?"

[Rodni Demental]

Yeah agreed, infact it was after hearing some of the live versions of I&W songs that I gained more appreciation for the material because I could hear more detail in the expression of certain sounds. Well, I suppose that's something that happens with any live version.

I also judge on the music first, hell I rank WDADU higher than most and the production doesn't bother me on that. BUT, the mixing can effect my decision to listen to a whole album as a single experience. Because I'd have to retain a more consistently open mindset when appreciating it, which is.. I dunno.. more effort?  If an album has nice production, I can just take it at face value instead of trying to appreciate those other details and having to deliberately judge it on those merits because you're trying to ignore some kind of off putting production.

Of course, I&W is probably a poor example to use for describing this because it's production is relatively not that bad. And the songwriting itself is still more important than how it's actually crafted. But I do think the production does have a significant effect on the overall listening experience. Hope I'm making sense here. 

[TheGreatPretender]

I find that on I&W, the production is a lot more "Rock" oriented. The keyboards are really loud and prevalent, and the guitar doesn't sound all that heavy. Like, when DT first came out, and became all popular, and everyone was so impressed by them, they always made the comparison of having the progressive and melodic touch of bands like Rush, Yes, etc. but with the heavy riffs of Metallica, but I&W was so heavy on the keyboards, that I didn't get a "Metallica" sense from any of its riffs, because everything was so clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards, that I&W really does come off more like a Prog Rock album, rather than a Prog Metal album. But yeah, with Awake, those riffs... I can feel them right in my loins.

[bosk1]

Well, I find that *I* am more "Rock" oriented, and that when people think about me, they can feel it right in their loins.  Just sayin'.

[BlobVanDam]

Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.

[XB0BX]

I've always thought JLB's always looked really fat.