Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I have no idea what is being talked about here.  I guess I have to buy the book.

Well, they weren't happy with his performance, and he just seemed like he was kind of phoning it in, and he wasn't doing anything to improve his voice. So they basically told him to either get his act together, or get out.

And there is my controversial opinion about the band.  Outside their music, they seem like boring people.  So even with this 2002 teaser, I probably still won't buy the book.

Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)

[Calvin6s]

Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)

I've been waiting for it to be released in e-book format, but that doesn't seem like it is ever going to happen.

My DT fan credentials are pretty tight, but I really hate paper books.  Despite all that, I went to the website and paid $21 for a paperback.  It isn't a fortune, but I don't think I've ever paid that much for a paperback book outside of required college books.

I feel like I'm about to read the Phantom Menace of rock biographies.

Call to order.  And now to move onto the pressing matter of LaBrie's gut.  The bylaws associated with the articles of incorporation clearly state 100% of the belt buckle must be visible at all times of fan interaction.  In the event said belt buckle becomes obscured by any band member's obesity, chapter seven of the charter shall authorize a blockade of such member's calorie intake until such offense has been rectified.  If this does not remedy the violation in a timely manner, a vote shall be taken on further association with the entity Majesty dba Dream Theater, barring a Petrucci veto.  Myung has abstained.

[XB0BX]

i've always thought jlb looked kind of chubby but didn't know if it was just him being a large dude

[hefdaddy42]

Most likely attorneys dealt with MP because by that time the legalities of his exit were already in place, not to mention the legalities of MM joining, and there was attorney's advice to handle things. 

It's the same thing in a divorce situation.  At a certain point, it is attorneys talking to attorneys, for legal reasons. 

The other stuff was just practicality and business, not a reflection on anyone's character at all.

[rumborak]

Also, quite likely the boot call (snigger) came shortly after a meeting of the remaining band members. You meet, come to the conclusion that it's the right thing to do, and then you obviously don't want to wait until next band practice. You want it over with. So you call by phone.

[Madman Shepherd]

And there is my controversial opinion about the band.  Outside their music, they seem like boring people.  So even with this 2002 teaser, I probably still won't buy the book.

Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)

I would much rather hang out with the guys in DT than Motley Crue

[Skeever]

I have to agree that Lifting Shadows (at least the first several chapters) is a pretty great and insightful book for DT fans, especially those of us who weren't around for the early days.

Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing, but I guess that's to be expected. In the early chapters you're getting history from a lot of different sources inside and outside the band. In the more recent chapters, it feels like you're getting the band framing their own history.

[rumborak]

I actually felt that started earlier in the book. I had the impression that anything from JR on was deemed the "happy family" period where everything went smoothly.

[Skeever]

Even the stuff about tossing James? I thought that section was 1.) really ludicrous and 2.) made MP look really bad (especially coming off the chapter where they talk about MP's own turmoil). But it was still included. They could have just as easily swept it under the rug since as far as I know nobody knew about it until Lifting Shadows. 

[Calvin6s]

Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing

I was already prepared to expect that act 3 would be the "everything is falling into place" PR stuff.  Seems like every band does it.  Not just in books.

Then time passes and Act 3 becomes Act 2.  That's partly why I haven't felt a need to buy the book, unlike their albums and live releases.

[TheGreatPretender]

Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing

I was already prepared to expect that act 3 would be the "everything is falling into place" PR stuff.  Seems like every band does it.  Not just in books.

Then time passes and Act 3 becomes Act 2.  That's partly why I haven't felt a need to buy the book, unlike their albums and live releases.

Well, unless you intimately know their early history, right down to the nitty gritty, then it's still an incredibly insightful and interesting 2/3 of a book.

[Skeever]

The latest version I have goes up to Black Clouds, but not as far as Portnoy leaving.

The whole Black Clouds chapter is soooo evidently PR. In fact, it's even called "The Best of Times" and, shit you not, here's a quote from the final pages.

Mike Portnoy: "In terms of goals for the band, there's still so much room and places to go. It would be nice to see how long we can sustain this, it would be nice for this to keep going ten or twenty years. But also there are still places for us to grow... there are still these little goals that are constantly hanging over our heads.

Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.

[TheGreatPretender]

Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.

Well, in spite of the thing with Portnoy happening, he wasn't wrong about the band itself. They did have a major upward swing, so musically and creatively, he wasn't exactly wrong... It's just ironic that he wasn't a part of that picture.

[Skeever]

Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.

Well, in spite of the thing with Portnoy happening, he wasn't wrong about the band itself. They did have a major upward swing, so musically and creatively, he wasn't exactly wrong... It's just ironic that he wasn't a part of that picture.

Did they really have an upswing? They seemed to be personally re-energized by Mangini, and they certainly got a lot of media attention - but it wasn't all good. Does attention = upswing?

[TheGreatPretender]

Did they really have an upswing? They seemed to be personally re-energized by Mangini, and they certainly got a lot of media attention - but it wasn't all good. Does attention = upswing?

Well, it's the right kind of attention. It's not like Gene Simmons attention where someone ran their mouth about something that's none of their business and became the center of Rock headlines. They're getting attention because of the music they're creating and the shows they're putting on, and that kind of attention I would say qualifies as an upswing. And 2 Grammy nominations might not mean much, but it's still better than no Grammy nominations at all.
Although I did mainly mean musically and creatively they've been on an upswing. Even though I loved SC, between that and BC&SL, it showed a trend of them going into an unfavorable overly heavy and less melodic direction, and the past 2 albums have been a huge improvement, and a step into a much better direction, if you ask me.
I mean, is there any indication that they're NOT on an upswing?

[rumborak]

If you believe Google Trends, they definitely are not.

[TheGreatPretender]

Which I don't.

[rumborak]

Well, show me an objective measure that shows they're on the upswing.

[TheGreatPretender]

I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.

[Skeever]

I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.

To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single 

Record sales? Concert sales? I saw DT on the Black Clouds tour, and they've played the exact same venue for the ADTOE and DT12 tours. They played the biggest venue for the SC tour. I don't think they are anywhere near approaching "MSG Main Stage" (MP's stretch goal). Maybe that was part of his unspoken rationale. Maybe he'd seen the band had "peaked" and was ready to move on to something larger (like A7X).

[rumborak]

To me, the Grammy nomination was little more than a marketing tool. They had as much chance of winning the Grammy as Liechtenstein had of winning the World Cup. They were going against Wasting Lights on one, IIRC.

[TheGreatPretender]

To me, the Grammy nomination was little more than a marketing tool. They had as much chance of winning the Grammy as Liechtenstein had of winning the World Cup. They were going against Wasting Lights on one, IIRC.

Like I said, I still think it means a hell of a lot more than Google search statistics.
I mean, Grammy nominations aside, the publicity they've been getting, the media attention... If that doesn't mean much, then there's not much more I can say. But it's all we have to go by, unless there are sales statistics out there somewhere. We do know their peak chart positions and they've been consistently stellar since 2009. If they're not getting more commercially successful, then they're at the very least holding a very strong position, which is a lot better than it has been since before their Roadrunner days. So MP saying they were on an upswing wasn't exactly inaccurate. Maybe if they did the hiatus like he planned and then made a big comeback, then they would've had an even bigger upswing, as he envisioned. JP didn't want to take that chance, so we'll never know. But JP's choice, carrying on without MP has if nothing else, maintained DT's success and only upped their popularity, which is certainly not a down swing.

Also, the "up swing" and "down swing" terminology has officially lost all meaning to me after this conversation.

[rumborak]

Dtf.org use has continuously declined too. Like, I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who's been around long enough that the forum is a shadow of the bustle it used to be.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I haven't had that much of a history with this forum, but it always seems to boom in the time of big announcements and releases. That's all I have to go by.

[rumborak]

In the SFAM-ToT days, a new album completely dominated the first page of the DT subforum. These days it's a few active threads at best, and BTFW was one thread only.

[TheGreatPretender]

But what does that mean? I mean, back then they were getting no label support whatsoever, and the only way they were able to persevere was MP hustling his ass off to stay in touch with and appease the fans. Maybe that lack of label support correlated to fans being able to only get their share of DT related news and publicity through forums? I honestly couldn't say. But that is one aspect where they're less active now, is fan interactions. I mean, I think they do a well enough job with Facebook updates and such, but back then, MP was so much more hands on with the DT fanbase, that it probably encouraged fans to be more active in DT's online community in general. That could be it, but it's all speculation, one way or the other.
All I know is that if the band is full of shit when they say that it was when they got their proper support from RR that things have been better for them than they had been in a long time, then they're definitely doing a good job of deceiving everyone, because from the kind of label support and publicity they're getting, the quality of their performances, as well as their live production, and the band's overall morale, it all spells upswing to me.

[rumborak]

I think it all depends on the angle from which your looking at it.
To me, DT has long been (at least to may, say, 6 years) in the classic "post-peak" period. Interest in the band was slowly waning, and while the MP/MM shakeup was the proverbial adrenaline syringe into the heart, the slow decent resumed soon after. I think to a lot of people, ADTOE showed potential, and the hope was that DT12 was going to boldly open the doors that were slightly ajar in ADTOE. I think DT12 was a rather disappointing "Oh." when it fell back into the old patterns again. *Especially* when the whole thing was preempted by quotes like "MM unleashed", and reality was a plastic electronic drum kit sound with mediocre drumming.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, that being the case for some, for others, myself included, as a result of DT12, I haven't been this excited about DT's musical future since the disappointment that was BC&SL. When that album came out, that's when I largely became paranoid that their future music was going to lose me, and while ADTOE was a step in the right direction, I still found certain aspects about it lacking interest, but with DT12, hearing it was like a breath of fresh air, and I can't wait to hear the next album as a result. And I know I'm not the only one who felt this way.

As for the general waning interest, again, their peak chart positions suggest otherwise, so I don't know what it all means.

[King Postwhore]

Peak chart position means nothing.  Sales is what matters.

[rumborak]

TGP, I think your excitement about DT12 is not shared by too many, even just judging by this forum.
I have to say though, I have to give RR some kudos for pushing DT into the public.
But, in the end, it's a bit like squeezing the remainder of toothpaste very hard. DT has not progressed into any meaningful new direction in the last 10 years, small gimmicks (like the IT string section) notwithstanding.

[TheGreatPretender]

Peak chart position means nothing.  Sales is what matters.

Well, unless those statistics are available, peak positions are all we have to go by.

TGP, I think your excitement about DT12 is not shared by too many, even just judging by this forum.
I have to say though, I have to give RR some kudos for pushing DT into the public.
But, in the end, it's a bit like squeezing the remainder of toothpaste very hard. DT has not progressed into any meaningful new direction in the last 10 years, small gimmicks (like the IT string section) notwithstanding.

Who cares? They don't have to completely reinvent their style to retain their popularity.
We'll see how it goes. All I'm saying is that MP's statement about the upswing wasn't pulled completely out of his ass. There is basis to it, especially from the band's perspective, I'm sure.

[rumborak]

As a completely random data point, the single most successful thread on this subforum is the one where people can voice their criticism about DT.

[King Postwhore]

You can't go by peak.  You may have the highest sales that 1 week at 100,000 album then the next week 3 album 3 sells 250,000.  So if you come out the week after, your position number is lower.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hey, I've spoken my share of criticisms regarding DT in this thread too, but I'll still say that I love the band and am devoted to them as much as ever.

[King Postwhore]

Nothing wrong with that.

BTW Rumbo, I don't think the drumming by MM was mediocre.  The sound was.