Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Skeever]

I'm putting 100% of the blame on production value. Mangini has appeared to be very excited and expressive live with DT. It's their production which is utterly flat and sterile.

[Sycsa]

because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.

Implying that it's MM's fault how he sounds on DT12. Maybe he's too much of a pushover, but I still wouldn't blame the new guy for the drum production of a 20+ year old mega-act like DT. Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, we just need the next studio album recorded the same way as BTFW.

[rumborak]

because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.

Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.

I know BTFW lists JP as the producer, but I kinda wonder whether the reason BFTW sounds so much different is because JP was only peripherally involved. They were still touring during the time of the production after all.

[Zook]

That's why I like the drummer on Iced Earth's newest rather than former drummer Brent Smedley. He was a great drummer, but he sounded like a robot doubling Schaffer's guitar triplets (something Schaffer wanted) but it was boring over all. The new drummer sounded completely natural, and dynamic. Another example is when Schaffer re-recorded the Something Wicked Trilogy with Ripper Owens. Schaffer palm muted the riffs and Brent doubled them and sucked all the life out of the songs. Had they not made those changes, those songs would have been decent re-recordings. Same can be said about the re-recording of Dante's Inferno. Brent Smedley is a great drummer, but he has no feel. Sadly Mike Mangini is the same way. Amazing drummer, but he lacks feeling, something Portnoy was all about. Portnoy's drumming had personality. Mangini has some awesome moments on both DT albums he's on, but there is a significant noticeable difference in the drum sound.

That being said, I don't want Portnoy back, because, well...... ROOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR

[The Presence of Frenemies]

because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.

Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.

I know BTFW lists JP as the producer, but I kinda wonder whether the reason BFTW sounds so much different is because JP was only peripherally involved. They were still touring during the time of the production after all.

We should remember that Mangini's hinted at dissatisfaction with the studio production of his drumming. While it's impossible to pin down exactly what caused the BTFW improvements, it's well within the realm of possibility that he spoke up about wanting to go with a different sound.

[PetFish]

Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

[Madman Shepherd]

I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII. 

[BlobVanDam]

I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII. 

There's also a big difference between what a demo sounded like in the early 90s, and what a demo sounds like
now, with modern technology. A DT "demo" these days is basically the rough guide tracks in the studio.

The album sounds like it has had zero production work, like they just hit the record button, then called it a day. The balance of the instruments is all off, the guitars are too loud and woofy, the drums are too low and sound completely dry, no reverb, no compression or limiting, no EQ'ing to bring out the punchy frequencies or make the cymbals come to life. If I handed over an album to get mixed and it came back sounding like that, I'd refuse to pay on the grounds that they didn't do anything.

That's not to say it sounds terrible or unlistenable, but without hesitation I'd say it's DT's worst sounding mix other than WDADU.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

But John Myung's playing isn't lifeless. There's always energy in his playing and his bass lines when heard always enhance the song.

[abydos]

Yeah, we're talking about playing here, not how they present themselves on stage.

I don't know why exactly, but MM's playing on James' albums was much better, imo. What came out of the last two DT albums is why I still believe Virgil Donati would have been a better choice (at least musicwise, I guess they didn't quite hit it off on a personal level).

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

No, the argument is whether the problematic attributes people have identified are a result of some inherent attribute of his playing (evenness or whatever) or simply the way it's being produced/mixed. It's the production issues, not Mangini as a person, that's the alternative to dislike.

[425]

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Yeah, the only thing of Mangini's that I have to criticize is his playing style. From what I can tell of his personality from what he portrays on social media, in the drummer auditions documentary, etc., he's a great person as a human being and is someone who I would almost certainly want to be friends with if I knew him in real life. I also have no problem with his onstage demeanor, since he is certainly as lively and expressive as I would expect a drummer to be. And even his playing, I'm really only willing to critique as far as to say that I prefer Portnoy. I don't mean to say anything negative about Mangini's drumming, since when I listen to him I hear some pretty incredible stuff, I just mean that, like most drummers, he doesn't excite me the way Portnoy does. And trust me, I wanted to be excited by him—it's not like I went into ADTOE and DT12 with the mindset that I would automatically not like any non-Portnoy drummer in DT—I just wasn't, even after giving his playing on two albums ample opportunity to appeal to me.

[Rodni Demental]

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I assure you it's very little to do with him as a person and much more about us (the fans in general). I would even question whether any of the assessments reflect any part of MM's playing, or whether it's mostly just opinionated fans imposing their preconceptions and expectations on everyone around them. Sure, people derive their interpretation from the source, but most of it says more about the listener and the fans than the player or the musicians. We all have preferences, and that's what influences what we expect, and in turn creates our conceptions about the band and players in general.

There's really no conception of what makes the perfect drummer unless I try and define it and I find some others to subjectively agree. There's no real objectivity in music, just opinions that might seem agreeable to some and maybe some inherently meaningless patterns that can assist our ability to interpret something from a particular point of view. I mean, it's abstract sound we're talking about here, in what world is one particular expression of a snare pop "better" than any other? When it's aesthetically pleasing? By what standard do you determine this? Furthermore, as soon as you define the 'rules' of how something should sound; define a particular pattern, you might even be limiting potential creativity without realising.

So, I conclude that MM is different (big shocker that one), and that most assessments of his playing are loaded with comparative preconceptions and expectations before they've even tried to appreciate his style in and of itself, or even consider the different ways he expresses differing styles. I'm being deliberately vague here because part of my point is that our conception of these sounds should be somewhat undefined and up to interpretation unless we're so sure of ourselves and our preferences that we wouldn't want them to change. Which is obviously not the case because most of us claim to want experimentation and for DT to play 'out of the box', forgetting that we're the ones that put them in the box in the first place! And besides, change is a constant.

I dunno.. Maybe everyone does realise that they're talking about themselves more than MM or anyone else, but it seems to me that those that are willing to make such bold claims as "MM doesn't play with emotion" either don't realise that there's no way they could possibly know this and is probably not even true. Or they truly believe that their conception of the player's sound is absolute. Or perhaps it's just the easiest way for them to express the 'differences' in their conception of different players and play styles.

They're both amazing drummers in their own right so whatever, the whole thing seems crazy. But you heard it from me so I guess I'm just talking about myself and I'm the crazy one. 

[Skeever]

I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII.

OK, but look it at outside the DT vacuum. How do DT albums sound compared to other prog albums? Hell, other RoadRunner albums? The answer, sadly, is worse. Substandard.

[Stadler]

^^^ I honestly don't understand that post.  Are we all subjectively making our own opinions, or are we all inherently biased and not giving the benefit of the doubt?

I think there are too many assumptions and generalizations being made here for it to end well.   I for one have no idea if MM is a nice guy or not, but all evidence seems to point to him being a top guy.  I for one have no doubt that his technical prowess is formidable, and his reputation as a drum craftsman well and deservedly earned.   Whether he is "better" than Drummer X is wholly dependent on the standard used to compare, and the judge, but certainly he belongs in the conversation. 

Having said that, there are only four drummers that I purposefully buy or put on CDs to listen to in and of themselves:  Bonham, Collins, Peart, and Portnoy.   Mangini is not one of them.  Doesn't mean he sucks, or is an axe murderer or does hard drugs.  I know none of those things.  I listened to I&W the other day almost solely to listen to Mike P. drum.   And I don't know if it is his personality, his role in the band, his drumming skills, or just dumb luck, but the arrangements are such that there are parts that seem almost tailored to be heard in that fashion.   

In contrast, I cannot name one song on ADTOE or DT12 for which I do that.    Vince Neil is not the best singer in the world (by a long shot) but he is the best singer for Motley Crue.   That does not mean that John Corabi sucks.  Ace Frehley is not the best guitar player in the world, but he is the best guitar player for Kiss.   That does not mean that Vinnie Vincent or Bruce Kulick sucks.  I happen to think that Mike Portnoy is the best drummer for Dream Theater.   

[Rodni Demental]

Stadler, I agree with what you're saying. We all have preferences, and that's completely natural, in fact to know what you prefer is just being honest with yourself. But I think our preferences are the beginning of our assessment of these drummers. It's just we shouldn't start pretending that what we prefer personally is necessarily representative of the intent, or expressive qualities as perceived by the musician. I mean a lot of the greatest musicians (for the most part) weren't trying to conform to some kind of conception of what people think generally makes a great piece of music, but just happened to tap into something that collectively resonates among a large group. Technically speaking, anything could appeal to anyone depending on their experiences or points of view, there are no rules, but there are kind of standards that have been created where people expect things to be a certain way, for better or worse I'm sure it goes both ways. But still, I say to hell with that and do whatever but then I'd probably accidentally offend any fans I somehow acquire. 

[Skeever]

Believe it or not, there are some pretty standard criteria that come into play when asking whether a album has been well produced or not. It's not just "completely subjective". There are sonic flaws to consider, like the album being too loud and clipping. There are basic questions to ask about the mix, like whether instruments can be heard clearly, whether the low end is clear, etc. There are your cleanup issues, like how much autotune has been used, and can you obviously tell it's there? I can think of a handful of pretty obvious sonic issues on several recent DT records.

Granted, different styles work best with different mixes. Something like punk or black metal really doesn't need pristine production value to get the point across, and is supposed to sound loud and chaotic. What DT have been doing so far is I guess acceptable in the ears of most fans, but I'd love to hear them really mastefully produce another album.

[Calvin6s]

I hate saying anything bad about Mangini, but this really isn't about what he is doing wrong as opposed to what "more" he could be doing.

Long time fans of DT were probably drawn to the band because it was different.  To some it wasn't necessarily revolutionary, but it was a band finally combining a lot of elements that were long overdue for a play date.

So there is a need for DT to challenge their fans with new creativity.  Many felt it was getting less new with each album.  The arrival of Mangini created the hopes that a completely new perspective would add some truly new ideas.

Instead of shaking it up, Mangini instead seems to blend in.  There is nothing specifically wrong with his playing.  I don't think he sounds robotic.  I don't think anything he plays is bad.  But it feels like it is more trying to fit in than inserting his own personality.

I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.

[Podaar]

I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.

Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings! 

[Stadler]

Stadler, I agree with what you're saying. We all have preferences, and that's completely natural, in fact to know what you prefer is just being honest with yourself. But I think our preferences are the beginning of our assessment of these drummers. It's just we shouldn't start pretending that what we prefer personally is necessarily representative of the intent, or expressive qualities as perceived by the musician. I mean a lot of the greatest musicians (for the most part) weren't trying to conform to some kind of conception of what people think generally makes a great piece of music, but just happened to tap into something that collectively resonates among a large group. Technically speaking, anything could appeal to anyone depending on their experiences or points of view, there are no rules, but there are kind of standards that have been created where people expect things to be a certain way, for better or worse I'm sure it goes both ways. But still, I say to hell with that and do whatever but then I'd probably accidentally offend any fans I somehow acquire. 

Ah, I got you now.  And on that, I agree 1000%. 

[Stadler]

Believe it or not, there are some pretty standard criteria that come into play when asking whether a album has been well produced or not. It's not just "completely subjective". There are sonic flaws to consider, like the album being too loud and clipping. There are basic questions to ask about the mix, like whether instruments can be heard clearly, whether the low end is clear, etc. There are your cleanup issues, like how much autotune has been used, and can you obviously tell it's there? I can think of a handful of pretty obvious sonic issues on several recent DT records.

Sorry to be a pedant, but it IS subjective, as there is no "standard", just criteria that a group - as opposed to an individual - have (subjectively) adopted to help the conversation.   Chris Kimsey's work with Marillion sounds nothing like Martin Birch's work with Maiden, which sound nothing like Owen Morris' work with Oasis, and while some (not all) of your criteria are common to the three, not all are, and none is "more right" in the strict sense of the word.

Granted, different styles work best with different mixes. Something like punk or black metal really doesn't need pristine production value to get the point across, and is supposed to sound loud and chaotic. What DT have been doing so far is I guess acceptable in the ears of most fans, but I'd love to hear them really mastefully produce another album.

Personally, my critiques have nothing to do with the "production" of the records, and while I do think they might benefit from their own Nick Raskulinecz, it wouldn't just be "sound quality" (whatever that is).  I kind of tune out when people start saying "it'd be a great album but for the production..." as I think really great albums transcend the production.   

[Podaar]

I'm a fan of Mangini and actually prefer his contribution to the band. MP's schtick had worn thin on me. So, I get a bit tired of reading posts about 'robot' this and 'emotionless' that, and he just plays along with the band. Thus, I tend to stay away from the DT side more than ever before.

Still, even when posters don't say it, we all understand that it's just their opinion, right?

[Podaar]

Stadler,

We've had our difficulties at DTF with the concept of 'subjective' vs. 'objective'. 

See also; Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?

[rumborak]

I think what Skeever is referring to is, there is a certain "engineering" aspect to recording music. E.g. did you make sure that none of your inputs are clipping, or too low. Did you have a look at the overall spectrum when mastering.
While any of those choices can of course be overridden as an artistic choice, they *do* then deviate from the standard, objective engineering criteria.

[emtee]

Given JP's power within the band and as producer you would have to conclude that the sound on the last 2 albums is exactly what
he wanted. My big question is...what kind of system does he (and others who make decisions) listen to the final product before
they sign off? It's got to be very high end equipment within the studio right? Maybe that system is so high end and so much different
than my $1,500.00 system and Klipsh speakers that they hear something completely different than I can. I really don't know.

I've posted my thoughts on the sonics of the last 2 albums too many times and it's dead horse territory but I'm truly trying
to understand how the producer and engineer (and others who make the final decision) make the call that it's ready for
mass consumption. And do they just listen through super high end equipment or multiple formats?

[Calvin6s]

I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.

Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings! 

So that's all he brings?  Maybe I'm not missing anything then.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 We need a new album...stat!!!

[rumborak]

Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings! 

So that's all he brings?  Maybe I'm not missing anything then.

[abydos]

MP put it out, MM brought it back in.

[Stadler]

Stadler,

We've had our difficulties at DTF with the concept of 'subjective' vs. 'objective'. 

See also; Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?

Don't get me started!  Anyone who's been over at MP.com knows it is a subject passionate to my heart, and on which I have pretty definitive opinions.

[vtgrad]

Given JP's power within the band and as producer you would have to conclude that the sound on the last 2 albums is exactly what
he wanted. My big question is...what kind of system does he (and others who make decisions) listen to the final product before
they sign off? It's got to be very high end equipment within the studio right? Maybe that system is so high end and so much different
than my $1,500.00 system and Klipsh speakers that they hear something completely different than I can. I really don't know.

I've posted my thoughts on the sonics of the last 2 albums too many times and it's dead horse territory but I'm truly trying
to understand how the producer and engineer (and others who make the final decision) make the call that it's ready for
mass consumption. And do they just listen through super high end equipment or multiple formats?

For ADToE and DT12, I fiddled with my mp3 player until I found what "I" thought sounded the best; which in my case was the "acoustic" setting.  Using a set of medium to high-end phones, both albums sound wonderful.  Drums and bass have punch and the instrument separation sounds fine to my ears.  However, put either one of those albums on my full system (an old Sony system with pre-set EQs) and it gets muddy and lacks separation.  Conversely, FII sounds magnificent on my mp3 set-up and stellar on my full system set-up.  Again, these are just my opinions.

I think it would be interesting to hear (or read) JP's take on the production of the last two albums specific to what we banter about here in forum-land; I'm sure he or a member of his family has a presence here.  I'm not saying he should make a comment... please don't misunderstand that.  I'm just saying it may be cool to hear from the man himself.

Again, I'm not saying he needs to defend himself or anything like that... not at all.  I don't want to be thought of as demanding anything from JP or the rest of DT.  I'm just thinking about how cool it would be to know his viewpoints on our (DTF's) viewpoints.

[Rodni Demental]

Absolutely! It would certainly be interesting to hear from the man himself. I dunno what we'd expect him to say though...

"Hey guys! We're going through a bit of a paradigm shift at the moment and we're always in constant motion, but I generally have a vision for how I want it to sound, it's often never enough though, you guys just keep building me up and breaking me down, it's not always easy seeing the bigger picture without tunnel vision. I don't wanna take this too far, just wanted to do some damage control because I believe I've been misunderstood, but no need to look past me and I appreciate the wishful thinking. It's only a matter of time before it's the way it used to be so have a little blind faith and we'll be finally free of this great debate. We're all surrounded by a great team of sound engineers so dw guys, i'll take the time, I'm just at home and about to head to the studio, catch you guys another day!"

Terrible I know...  

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Absolutely! It would certainly be interesting to hear from the man himself. I dunno what we'd expect him to say though...

"Hey guys! We're going through a bit of a paradigm shift at the moment and we're always in constant motion, but I generally have a vision for how I want it to sound, it's often never enough though, you guys just keep building me up and breaking me down, it's not always easy seeing the bigger picture without tunnel vision. I don't wanna take this too far, just wanted to do some damage control because I believe I've been misunderstood, but no need to look past me and I appreciate the wishful thinking. It's only a matter of time before it's the way it used to be so have a little blind faith and we'll be finally free of this great debate. We're all surrounded by a great team of sound engineers so dw guys, i'll take the time, I'm just at home and about to head to the studio, catch you guys another day!"

Terrible I know...  

After which he'd never be open again.