Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[PetFish]

So whether you like the song or not, those individual parts of Raw Dog *were* good enough for earlier songs - it was just that they couldn't find the place to use them during the writing sessions for BCaSL.

Perfectly said.

I also don't understand this mentality.  Artists create.  It's what they do.  They dream about it and wake up and write it down or jump out of the shower and write it down or record a little riff into their phones.  Inspiration happens 24/7 and there's probably days and days of music just sitting around the could get used at some point or stay hidden.  It's no big deal.  Just think about how much Vai and Satch have squirreled away.  In fact, I just recently read something that Satch has finally digitized 30+ years of his vaulted noodling and ideas.

It's different for traditional bands like Bon Jovi or Halestorm who write 30+ songs for every album and then choose what's "good enough" to be released officially or "bad enough" to be vaulted and maybe revisited at a later date or combined into a "new" song.

[IDontNotDoThings]

For the record, I didn't know that Raw Dog was an outtake from the BC&SL sessions & I still disliked it. Learning that it was an outtake just explained why it sounded more like a collection of unused riffs & solos than an actual "song", so to speak.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

For the record, I didn't know that Raw Dog was an outtake from the BC&SL sessions & I still disliked it. Learning that it was an outtake just explained why it sounded more like a collection of unused riffs & solos than an actual "song", so to speak.

Yup. Don't understand the idea that those who don't like the song don't like it for some arbitrary reason unrelated to the music itself. Whether it was an outtake or not, it's not a song I feel compelled to listen to ever again.

[hefdaddy42]

I think part of my initial enjoyment for Raw Dog comes from not actually knowing all the background info at first, I just knew they had an instrumental song on the God of War soundtrack and it was good, so no more questions asked from me. Maybe if some of you didn't know it was "discarded" material, you would enjoy it more. Just my two cents.

Nope.  I thought it was awful.  If I like it, I like it.  Doesn't matter where it came from, in that regard.

[Northern Lion]

Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.

[gzarruk]

Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.

Where did you place it?

[Setlist Scotty]

Maybe it's just a wrong impression, but I think that a little bit of reason could be attributed to LTE. They realized that, especially with Jordan, they could come up with amazing music in a short amount of time, and so they thought that could always be the case. So they wrote, wrote, wrote, we have 78 minutes, ok it's a wrap.

That may have been the case, but I don't necessarily think so. LTE was all about writing and recording an album in the studio simultaneously. Even with Awake, they wrote that album in less than a month. Same with ToT, which they did the "old" way. So I don't necessarily think that's the case.

I dunno.  I just kind of feel like it's none of our business.  They write in the way they feel works best for them.  Period.  We aren't part of the process and don't really have any insight beyond whatever opinion we happen to pull out of thin air.  That isn't really worth a whole lot.

Perhaps. But how much of what we discuss - i.e. the inner workings of the band - is any of our business? We discuss it because we're interested in it. And so I'm having a hard time understanding why this should be singled out in comparison to many other aspects of the band. Again, considering the few occasions where they did write more than an album's worth of material, they ended up choosing at least some of the newer tracks over older ones. In fact, we might not even be having this discussion had they not written PMU, which was written when Derek Oliver asked them to write a few more tunes while they were waiting for the green light to get into the studio. So again, I fail to see how this could be a terrible idea, given the rapid clip that they can crank new material out.

It's different for traditional bands like Bon Jovi or Halestorm who write 30+ songs for every album and then choose what's "good enough" to be released officially or "bad enough" to be vaulted and maybe revisited at a later date or combined into a "new" song.

But honestly, why should it be different for DT in comparison to Bon Jovi or Halestorm? Why should they stop when they're on a roll creatively? Who know what they might come up with, if they follow their muse. Maybe even the next "Pull Me Under."

[MoraWintersoul]

Why should they stop when they're on a roll creatively? Who know what they might come up with, if they follow their muse. Maybe even the next "Pull Me Under."

I agree with you. Y'all know my fave album is Awake, for reasons of personal taste. They cranked that one out really fast, because they could, and just like a lot of the music they cranked out really fast, it's really good. But IAW, ACOS and Scenes are the most critically acclaimed and most beloved by the fans - and what do all these pieces have in common? Significant bits of music and lyrics existed years before the respective albums were recorded, because they were blocked from recording them (because the label said no, and because they didn't have a singer). And these pieces were refined and added to all the time. And then they could select for the best.

I really like some bits of ACOS that didn't make it in, both lyrically and musically. But they sat on that song for years and turned it into a cinematic masterpiece of images and words. If they recorded it back when they played it live for the first time, it wouldn't have been what it is today. Same with Scenes being left as one epic song.

[Evai]

I don't think another Pull Me Under is possible unless they completely change their style, or do something completely unique/viral. It's not the 90's anymore, there are new solutions to be found

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't think another Pull Me Under is possible unless they completely change their style, or do something completely unique/viral. It's not the 90's anymore, there are new solutions to be found

It's highly unlikely. But then again, it was highly unlikely in 1992 when grunge had taken to the airwaves. I don't expect it to happen any more than you do, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

[Northern Lion]

Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.

Where did you place it?

I placed it right after Wither.  It seemed out of place to put it right before or after The Best of Times, and I think it could work well between A Nightmare to Remember and A Rite of Passage.  But because it ends so abruptly, the flow sounded better to me to put it right before The Shattered Fortress because it fades in.

[SeRoX]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

[DTA]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

I'd love to hear Take Away My Pain live, but it may be too personal for JP for him to want to retread that ground. I also like the album version with the funky drums more than the simplified demo version. It feels more unique and special.

[cramx3]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

What if JP just did the solo during a solo spot?  The solo is the best part of the song, but its a long song and other than to say "I saw it live!" Id rather them not play it.

Also, I'm cool with WDADU going on the shelf for good.  At this point, the only song I really would want live is Status Seeker and there's just no way they are playing it again.

[KevShmev]

The Best of Times solo would work well in a medley, but JP hates medleys and I doubt they are ever coming back, which is a good thing, generally speaking, but it's probably the one way we'd get to see and hear that solo live. 

I agree that the FII version of Take Away My Pain is far and away the best version of it; I would love to see that version played live, although if JP doesn't want to play it, I get it.

[pg1067]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

[Max Kuehnau]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

me either, and I think that every solo JP played after Black Clouds was better than TBOT. (hello Breaking All Illusions, that one would be a prime example IMHO)

[Northern Lion]

*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

me either, and I think that every solo JP played after Black Clouds was better than TBOT. (hello Breaking All Illusions, that one would be a prime example IMHO)

Yeah, I agree.  I'm not really a fan of the song.  I get why Mike wrote it and I'm really glad he got to play it for his dad before he died.  So undoubtedly the song has a lot of meaning for him.  But as a DT fan I could care less if it is ever played live.  It does have a good solo, but so do a lot of other DT songs .

[mikeyd23]

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

[pg1067]

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.

[Stadler]

The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

How about rotating setlists?     One night doing disk one, one night doing disk two? 

(I'm kidding and going for a laugh; not making any specific point).

[bosk1]

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.

For my tastes, I completely agree with you.  But that said, it has that soaring, melodic quality that easily connects with people, so I get why some may feel it is a cut above.  Not that it's "better" or "more special" than the norm--but it just connects with them, perhaps more than the typical solo.  I can't begrudge that even a little bit, even if I may not connect with it the same way.

[hefdaddy42]

The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

How about rotating setlists?     One night doing disk one, one night doing disk two? 

(I'm kidding and going for a laugh; not making any specific point).

TBH, if they wanted to go all out, they could make the title track the encore.  They could sprinkle the songs from disc 1 throughout sets 1 & 2, along with other songs.

Of course, this will never happen.

[bosk1]

I think 43 minutes is too long for an encore.  Even by DT's standards. 

[hefdaddy42]

I think 43 minutes is too long for an encore.  Even by DT's standards. 

Yeah.

[Dublagent66]

Actually, it's only 42 mins.

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.

[KevShmev]

Actually, it's only 42 mins.

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.

Or do an extra long encore.  Scotty can speak more about this since his memory is stellar, but I seem to recall that the encores were pretty long on the 6DOIT tour when many of the shows saw set 2 being nothing but the 6DOIT suite.  I think the first sets were a little longer as well than normal.  The show I saw on that tour had an encore of Home, Take the Time and The Spirit Carries On (which is close to 30 minutes).

[Mladen]

I don't think it's too improbable for them to bust out the SDOIT title track, but certainly not as an encore. It could make up a good chunk of the second set, maybe followed by As I am as the set closer. 

[Fritzinger]

I don't think it's too improbable for them to bust out the SDOIT title track, but certainly not as an encore. It could make up a good chunk of the second set, maybe followed by As I am as the set closer. 

I see what you did there - the two songs would flow into each other perfectly!!!


Btw, I saw Haken a few years back in a bar (!) where 80 people fitted in, and they played Visions AND Celestial Elixir as encore... so that's roughly 40 minutes  Also, Transatlantic played Stranger In Your Soul as the encore in a huge 33 minute version during the Whirld Tour.

[Rob24]

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.

That's not how music works. You connect to it on an emotional level, that's why it means something to you. That's why it's special - it's that personal connection. It's not like it needs to be particularly different or flashy, that's just a nonsense approach.

[Setlist Scotty]

Actually, it's only 42 mins.

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.

Or do an extra long encore.  Scotty can speak more about this since his memory is stellar, but I seem to recall that the encores were pretty long on the 6DOIT tour when many of the shows saw set 2 being nothing but the 6DOIT suite.  I think the first sets were a little longer as well than normal.  The show I saw on that tour had an encore of Home, Take the Time and The Spirit Carries On (which is close to 30 minutes).

For the Evening With shows, the encores were on the long side, I think in part because the second set was comparatively short (since it was just the title track of SDoIT). Checking the encores for a few of the shows, it looks like they ran about 35 minutes, give or take. So doing SDoIT as an encore wouldn't be completely out of the question, although I can't imagine them ever doing it like that.

[The Walrus]

EDIT: I am a grumpy old man in a fairly young man's body, forget it 

[Stadler]

It feels good though, dunnit?

[King Postwhore]

And it's so much better screaming at youngins from my recliner with my remote in hand.

[Max Kuehnau]

EDIT: I am a grumpy old man in a fairly young man's body, forget it 

me too (or so I am told)