Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[robwebster]

I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).

I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.

[rumborak]

it definitely has a much more metallic sound to it.

I was gonna make a post about the whole "this is prog vs progressive again", but then saw this. I guess there's a new war in town, "metal vs metallic"

[robwebster]

it definitely has a much more metallic sound to it.

I was gonna make a post about the whole "this is prog vs progressive again"

Ohhhh, you're not stuffing the worms back into the can that easily! q: Prog's a noun, progressive's an adjective. Not all prog songs are progressive, not all progressive songs are prog. All prog songs are proggy, though.

Controversial opinions... ahoy!

[GasparXR]

I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).

I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.

I'd probably throw in a good part of FII in there, particularly New Millennium and Anna Lee. Probably Disappear too, although it has a similar vibe to Space-Dye Vest, albeit with more psychedelic influence in some parts.

[TheGreatPretender]

I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).

How is it that you skipped over their Derek days?
When it comes to DT being adventurous, I'd say their most experimental album by far is FII. Yes, there was a lot of label involvement there, but even without it, even the way it was on the FII Demos, it sounded like they were exploring a different, more melodic style, but in a very different way than I&W. Whereas I&W sounded like a natural progression and improvement over the WDADU formula, FII sounded like something completely new and different from them.

So if we were to define "Progressive" as something experimental, then I'd say FII is their most progressive album. But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.


And if we're gonna address the whole prog vs. progressive thing again. Or at least the term "proggy", to me, that term indicates something more wanky, that's a lot more keyboard or at least melody oriented. So yeah, proggy kind of takes a backseat when the metal element enters the picture, and suddenly everything is more riff driven. But until we get an official musical definition on Progressive, Prog, Proggy, Metal, Metallic, then these semantics are all up to individual interpretation, and arguing about them is like arguing about whether a piece of art is good or not. People of different generations and different musical experiences will have different interpretations of these terms, so what's the point?

[rumborak]

But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.

[robwebster]

I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).

I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.

I'd probably throw in a good part of FII in there, particularly New Millennium and Anna Lee. Probably Disappear too, although it has a similar vibe to Space-Dye Vest, albeit with more psychedelic influence in some parts.

Oh, man, I'd forgotten New Millennium! I don't think there's that much of Falling Into Infinity that's massively surpising, even a song like You Not Me that everyone moans about has plenty of DT in it. It's been trimmed and pasteurised, but it's not batshit mental in the same way New Millennium is. Anna Lee, I don't think is a million miles from the band who wrote Another Day, but Take Away My Pain could have a shout, now you mention it.

There's a really cool interview, ca. the Falling Into Infinity era, where John Petrucci is truly and sincerely very excited about all the cool stuff on the album, and I think it's an absolutely stellar read. I did toy, for a while, with starting a quote database - just the band, discussing their songs and albums and the events in the band's life with links to the full interviews, and Falling Into Infinity was a fun album to research. The narrative was so fogged with "GRR, THE RECORD LABEL, MAN" that you don't hear enough of the band discussing the things that are really cool.

[TheGreatPretender]

But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.

Maybe if you want to use those terms by themselves to describe any piece of music, I'd agree. But in general, I just consider Prog to be an abbreviation of Progressive. If I asked someone what the genre of a band is, and they said, "Progressive Metal", I wouldn't assume the band is doing something extremely experimental, I'd assume the band makes long, epic songs, or a lot of time signature and musical theme changes within their songs.
And if they said the band is "Prog Metal", I would assume they're just abbreviating Progressive.


EDIT: Actually, I'm not even sure I agree with myself there. Because if someone told me that a SONG was progressive, I'd still assume they meant the song was epic and had a lot of changes in it, like ACOS or IT.
Yeah, I can't say that I associate Progressive and Experimental. I mean, a band that's progressive can be experimental, there's nothing that makes the two elements mutually exclusive. But if you have a band that's experimental, and they do something new, like fuse two new genres together, and end up with... Well, JLB's Impermanent Resonance, for example. I would say that's a very experimental sound, combining the catchy elements of pop, with the heavy and fast elements of Death Metal like that. But I wouldn't take any given song on that album and call it Progressive.

[Jaffa]

I'm beginning to think we should just boycott the words 'prog' and 'progressive' altogether. 

[robwebster]

There's a really cool interview, ca. the Falling Into Infinity era, where John Petrucci is truly and sincerely very excited about all the cool stuff on the album, and I think it's an absolutely stellar read. I did toy, for a while, with starting a quote database - just the band, discussing their songs and albums and the events in the band's life with links to the full interviews, and Falling Into Infinity was a fun album to research. The narrative was so fogged with "GRR, THE RECORD LABEL, MAN" that you don't hear enough of the band discussing the things that are really cool.

I know this is completely contrary to what I just said about how refreshing it is hearing the band being positive about Falling into Infinity, but hell - who doesn't love Scathing John Myung?

Shockwaves: In your bio, it describes [You Not Me] as a "tortured love anthem." Can you explain the meaning behind that?
JM: I think that's the record company being a little bit too creative.

https://www.hardradio.com/hr3.html?https://www.hardradio.com/shockwaves/dt1.php3

[GentlemanofDread]

Oh wow, that's an interesting read, Mr robwebster! JM always proving to be my favourite DT Member.

[robwebster]

Oh wow, that's an interesting read, Mr robwebster! JM always proving to be my favourite DT Member.

He's good, isn't he? Truth be told, he's got me back into the quote database. https://dtondt.wordpress.com - I might put a link saying "send me interviews" in my signature. There's another one, from either the FII or the SfaM era, that I'm trying to find, apparently never added it to the database. I just found this, though, so this is nice! https://www.musicplayers.com/features/bass/2014/0114_JohnMyung.php Look how chatty he is! I feel like I read this at the time, but I don't remember a bloody thing about it.

[Lucien]

I just read an interview with Jordan and it seems that he has no problem with DT's stylistical limitations: https://metalshrineblogg.blogspot.se/2014/02/intervju-med-jordan-rudess-i-dream.html?m=1

With a band like Dream Theater, is there ever a limit to how far you can stray from the sound you´re known for? Or do you always have to keep it within the Dream Theater boundaries, so to speak?

Jordan Rudess: The stylistic window. First of all, Dream Theater is a fairly wide stylistic world and there are a lot of things that can be included, be it a little honky tonk thing or a slightly jazzy thing, so there are many possibilities. There are certain things that really don´t go or don´t fly inside the Dream Theater window. The best example of a band that completely does what you´re referring to, is Radiohead. They create these songs and then next thing they´re an electronic band doing weird stuff. Dream Theater does not work that way. We´ve worked very hard over the years in creating this window of parameters and it´s kinda a common ground for all of us as musicians to create this particular kind of music. An example is that many years ago, I remember I had just gotten an amazing percussion library of native instruments called Battery with great electronic drum sounds. I came into a Dream Theater writing session and we started off jamming and I was playing these really cool sounds and we had a great, great jam and it was really funny and we all ended up laughing at the end, which was really cool. I remember Mike Portnoy saying "That was amazing, but we could never do anything like that!". It was just too different and too odd.

Could that ever limit you as a musician?

Jordan Rudess: As a musician I have all kinds of projects I do on the side. I just finished and orchestral album and earlier I made a solo piano album that is really, really gentle. I do my electronic music and my solo piano music and when we come together as a band, I know it´s time for Dream Theater. But if we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the "Illumination theory" and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album. Things do change and we become more relaxed. Things are possible, but it´s an appreciation and respect for who we are.

Honestly, that attitude is quite unfortunate.  Too different and too odd?  Uh, it's your band, so you can do whatever you want with it, especially when you freely admit to being a progressive band, which should mean doing whatever the hell you want, instead of staying inside the box you have created for yourself, even if it is larger than that of most other bands.

That quote really is unfortunate.  Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

[theseoafs]

But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.

This is by no means the tentative consensus.  That is a (rather unsubstantiated) opinion that is thrown around by a few whenever this silly debate crops up.

[TheGreatPretender]

That quote really is unfortunate.  Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

But it really depends on to what extent you interpret that. I mean, Dream Theater is a Progressive Metal band, again, I always say, that Metal aspect is there, and they can't just abandon their rock roots. They can't just make a synth pop album for the sheer sake of doing something different.
They still incorporate all sorts of sounds and influences into their music. I personally don't know of any other band that can get away with writing a song like Solitary Shell AND a song like A Nightmare To Remember.
Just because they're not planning to do any songs that are Jazz Fusion or completely atmospheric, doesn't mean they're 'limiting themselves' or that their music is narrow.

Again, the whole "progressive" and experimental issue. It's not like Dream Theater's goal from the beginning was to always try to do something new and different and experimental. They don't go out of their way to say, "Let's do something just for the sake of shocking the audience with how different we are". They do what they feel passionate about and if one or two of their albums turned out to tread some new, interesting ground, that doesn't mean they need to strive to do that all the time. Especially if it doesn't work. Some of their most experimental songs, such as New Millennium and The Great Debate, are some of my least favorite.

[?]

I'd love to see DT do things differently with the next album - I'm not saying they need to make, say, synth pop (although it could be awesome, as I like Depeche Mode and CHVRCHES), but even hiring an outside producer or writing all the songs before going into the studio could shake things up a little bit.

[Dublagent66]

I'm beginning to think we should just boycott the words 'prog' and 'progressive' altogether.

Yeah, that's why I used the word "proggy". 

[Outcrier]

Would be nice if they make an album influenced by music they're digging in the present other than prog (based on their best 2013 albums, Rudess = Boards of Canada, Sigur Ros... Petrucci = Some metalcore bands).

[TheGreatPretender]

Would be nice if they make an album influenced by music they're digging in the present other than prog (based on their best 2013 albums, Rudess = Boards of Canada, Sigur Ros... Petrucci = Some metalcore bands).

That would be absolutely terrible. Bite your tongue!

I'd much rather hear DT stagnate into the most DT by numbers sound, than hear them try and do Metalcore.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Some metalcore is good. Trivium, for instance, are fantastic.

[Outcrier]

Well, it's not like i like it either but it's what he's listening most these days apparently.
Since one of your favorites is Systematic Chaos, you wouldn't bother much if this experience turned out to be terrible

[Outcrier]

DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

That is obvious, we're just imagining if things were different.

[TheGreatPretender]

DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

I got no problem with that.

Honestly, the problem with DT doing anything experimental is that they're a diverse band as it is, and as a result, they managed to attract a fanbase with extremely differing musical tastes. And those tastes aren't always going to agree. While I personally would really enjoy a DT album where they tried to have, let's say, more symphonic elements like Forsaken with a string section, or more Power Metal elements along the lines of Yngwie Malmsteen, I know that that style might not be for everyone and would probably alienate a good portion of the fans who are more into the darker, more aggressive Metal side of DT.

So I think it's best that they stick to taking those kinds of influences, and implementing them like drops of lemon into what they're already doing.

[Outcrier]

Some metalcore is good. Trivium, for instance, are fantastic.

You're in the right topic 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

I got no problem with that.

Honestly, the problem with DT doing anything experimental is that they're a diverse band as it is, and as a result, they managed to attract a fanbase with extremely differing musical tastes. And those tastes aren't always going to agree. While I personally would really enjoy a DT album where they tried to have, let's say, more symphonic elements like Forsaken with a string section, or more Power Metal elements along the lines of Yngwie Malmsteen, I know that that style might not be for everyone and would probably alienate a good portion of the fans who are more into the darker, more aggressive Metal side of DT.

So I think it's best that they stick to taking those kinds of influences, and implementing them like drops of lemon into what they're already doing.

I don't have a problem with it either. At the end of the day, I'd prefer they do what they've done the past two albums, which have been different while clearly DT, rather than take a huge risk that could very likely fail.

As long as the music is good -- and I believe it has been lately -- they should keep on doing DT. There's just enough variety between the albums to keep things interesting for me.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't have a problem with it either. At the end of the day, I'd prefer they do what they've done the past two albums, which have been different while clearly DT, rather than take a huge risk that could very likely fail.

As long as the music is good -- and I believe it has been lately -- they should keep on doing DT. There's just enough variety between the albums to keep things interesting for me.

We agree on something for once. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

This DTF, we ain't having any of that agreein' nonsense.

[Lucien]

They still incorporate all sorts of sounds and influences into their music. I personally don't know of any other band that can get away with writing a song like Solitary Shell AND a song like A Nightmare To Remember.

The other DT.. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.

In the grand scheme of things, they're still few and far between, and like I said, none that I personally know. This is the first time I hear of Ulver.

[son_ov_hades]

Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.

Fuck yeah Ulver! I didn't expect someone on here to be a fan. I'm still very upset they dropped out of this year's Maryland Deathfest.

[KevShmev]

I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).

How is it that you skipped over their Derek days?

Because I don't think FII is as adventurous as the two albums with the classic lineup or the first two with Rudess were.  Pretty simple, really.

[KevShmev]

That quote really is unfortunate.  Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed.  I remember one of them had something similar about Liquid Dreams from the 2nd LTE album, like, "We could never do a song like in DT."  Uh, why not?  It is your band, so you can do whatever you want with it.  Being a rock band didn't stop U2 from doing a lot of the electronic stuff they did in the 90s, so are you telling me DT cannot write out of their progressive metal comfort zone?  No way.  And no, I don't think they should do something different just for the sake of it, but if they have a great idea, like Rudess talked about in that earlier quote, why not expand it and write a DT song around it? Just because it's not part of the pre-existing DT sound doesn't mean it cannot become part of the DT sound.