Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[mikeyd23]

This Dying Soul is a great song, although I'd place it 3rd in the 12SS behind TGP, and TROAE. I think the general consensus would be about that same order.

Yep, this exactly.

[Nearmyth]

 I am a lover of TDS as well! I think it's a really great song.

I place it right behind The Glass Prison:

1. The Glass Prison
2. This Dying Soul
3. Repentance
4. TSF
5. TROAE

I already had a convo like this a couple pages back, but my listing seems to differ from the general consensus usually, having put TROAE so low and Repentance as high as it is.

[tiagodon]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

You mean like they went commercial with Octavarium? 

[KevShmev]

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.

[Konrad]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

Agreed

[CodyWanKenobi]

The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.

And that's easily the worst part of that song.

[nikatapi]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

I think this is more the production's fault than Mangini's playing itself. He plays with lots of subtleties and feeling, but it just gets lost with this mediocre sound.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

I think this is more the production's fault than Mangini's playing itself. He plays with lots of subtleties and feeling, but it just gets lost with this mediocre sound.

I don't think it's the production. I think it's a misuse of words and an inability/unwillingness to hear "feeling."

The production is pretty bad, no doubt. But I suspect s/he was referring to something else. But ultimately what exactly is meant by "feeling" is anyone's guess. It's probably similar to when people who don't actually listen to John Petrucci's playing try to tell me "he has no feeling in his playing."

[Nearmyth]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I agree, somewhat. They're definitely trying to get more popular and get themselves out there more, but that's what DT has always done.

When it comes to the songs on DT12, they're definitely a bit simpler to fit that brief, concise songwriting style. To me, this made the album get old pretty quick. Save IT, the only song that actually took me a while to "get" was Surrender To Reason. The rest of the songs you got the gist of it on the first listen. This is really only a bad thing for me because I enjoy when a song takes a while to sink in, and has songwriting that you can pick apart 

Doesn't mean the songs aren't good of course, and DT has always had commercial friendly songs (ex., like mentioned earlier, basically everything on Octavarium besides the title track).

I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.

Wow, didn't mean to turn this into a mini DT12 review. I tend to ramble

[Outcrier]

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.

It really doesn't matter how commercial it is if it is good.

[TheGreatPretender]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I agree, somewhat. They're definitely trying to get more popular and get themselves out there more, but that's what DT has always done.

When it comes to the songs on DT12, they're definitely a bit simpler to fit that brief, concise songwriting style. To me, this made the album get old pretty quick. Save IT, the only song that actually took me a while to "get" was Surrender To Reason. The rest of the songs you got the gist of it on the first listen. This is really only a bad thing for me because I enjoy when a song takes a while to sink in, and has songwriting that you can pick apart 

Doesn't mean the songs aren't good of course, and DT has always had commercial friendly songs (ex., like mentioned earlier, basically everything on Octavarium besides the title track).

I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.

Wow, didn't mean to turn this into a mini DT12 review. I tend to ramble

My point with Octavarium though was that just because they do things a certain way on one album that doesn't mean they're "Becoming" that way. Two albums later, we got BC&SL, which is the opposite of a "commercial" album. So just because they went this way on DT12, it's not an indication of "who they're trying to cater to now" or where their sound is going. DT has always done something different with every album, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got something completely unexpected next time around.

[orcus116]

Are we confusing commercial with accessible?

[TheGreatPretender]

Are we confusing commercial with accessible?

The difference being?

[Daso]

Accessible applies much more to the songs being easier to listen, perhaps due to having characteristics that allude to the majority's taste (this majority meaning "almost everyone"); while commercial doesn't imply having those certain characteristics. It doesn't mean it lacks those traits either, but there could be that difference.

Although it was some posts ago and perhaps the issue was finished, I found it interesting and, well, for me the 12SS ranks this way

1. TROAE
2. TGP
3. Repentance
4. TSF
5. TDS

Yep, I know a lot of fans aren't overly wild about This Dying Soul, myself included.  It is probably my least favorite 12-step song, the worst song from ToT, and would be in my bottom 15 DT songs ever.

Agreed. The only good thing about the song, for me, is the instrumental section on the end.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.

It really doesn't matter how commercial it is if it is good.

That. Commercial and good are not mutually exclusive goals, and DT's more accessible songs are often among my favourites anyway.
But the new album is not what I'd call commercial. It is relatively more accessible for DT, but when you put it into context, it's still far from most music.

[?]

I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.

Agreed.

[erwinrafael]

Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

Commercial? DT12?

LOL

What exactly differentiates a commercial song from a progressive song? Are they even diametrically opposed? Pull Me Under is a commercial, but isn't it still progressive?

DT12 songs, save for IT, are compact. They are relatively less wanky and the instrumentals are more purposive. Does that make the songs commercial?

And I surrender with all these "feelings' in drumming. Watch a live show, MM does his parts relatively the same. If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.

[Invisible]

Commercial? In the 70's, 80's maybe, nowdays just no LOL. Their songs are still longer than your average radio friendly song, even if they are short for DT standards(and not so much f you look at their entire catalog). Their song length and accessibility is on the same level as I&W, Awake, FII and Octavarium, so if "they are going commercial", they have been for really long time, and I don't think it's a bad thing as long as they don't compromise their music only to fulfil that purpose. And actually there are several ways to be commercial, and not all of them mean the same depending on the band you're talking about but that's a different topic altogether.

The feeling thing again is on the listener connection to the player, so it's entirely subjective. A discussion that goes nowhere.

Finally, there isn't a correlation between song length and progressiveness or quality, while some of the 10-15 minute songs are my favourites, other are just a huge miss, and so are some shorter tracks. Surrounded, to give a fan favourite example, is short but with a lot of changes, so is Behind The Veil or Surrender To Reason on the latest album. Whether you like it or not it's completely subjective, but I don't see a difference in the way all these songs where constructed, they are still 100% Dream Theater, with all that implies.

[jakepriest]

If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.

It is robotic in the way it sounds. MM tries to hit each drum at exactly the same velocity and distance which leaves out the little nuance dynamics that most drummers have.  It's also mostly because his drums sound like total crap compared to Portnoys.

[rumborak]

I reaaallly enjoyed yesterday's concert, but yeah, I have to agree with the above. Even in the softer sections of songs, every snare hit was a massive "BAM!"

[Nearmyth]

My point with Octavarium though was that just because they do things a certain way on one album that doesn't mean they're "Becoming" that way. Two albums later, we got BC&SL, which is the opposite of a "commercial" album. So just because they went this way on DT12, it's not an indication of "who they're trying to cater to now" or where their sound is going. DT has always done something different with every album, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got something completely unexpected next time around.

No I agree, that's what I was saying (or meant to say). It doesn't by all means mean DT is going commercial and accessible to the general public, they've always done stuff like this. but this album in itself just seems more straightforward, which hindered it a bit for me.

I definitely expect something different next time, though it's hard to tell. Like I said I have trust in DT and their songwriting capabilities, I'm sure we'll still be getting a good dosage of prog  (hoping we won't get another BC&SL of course).

And to the above statements, I think accessible means more that the average music listener can get into it, while commercial means it can be very radio friendly. There can be a difference, however minute in terminology.

Like, for lack of a better example, Ministry of Lost Souls can be very accessible for somewhat getting into prog (take the dramatic theme, dynamic sound and melodies, minus the somewhat complex middle section if you wanna go that far), but it isn't very "radio friendly" (not unless you edited it down to hell).

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, we certainly won't be getting, "MY BROTHA!"

[Nearmyth]

  That is true

[erwinrafael]

If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.

It is robotic in the way it sounds. MM tries to hit each drum at exactly the same velocity and distance which leaves out the little nuance dynamics that most drummers have.  It's also mostly because his drums sound like total crap compared to Portnoys.

so MM's fault is that he has balanced control of both his right and left hands, so that when he rolls, you won't know which note he is hitting with the left or the right hand? Drumming schools must have been teaching students the wrong way, then, because they have always taught the value of trying to achieve balance between your left and right hand. Do you mean that MP's drumming was not balanced, which  made his drumming dynamic?

Dynamics has a precise usage in music. I can not accept (again) that MM's drumming has no dynamics because his volumes do go up and down depending on what fits the music. Perfect example is Breaking All Illusions. I would give that as a classic drumming lesson in dynamics in drumming, the way the drums go down when JP does his bluesy solo, or when the drumming becomes softer during the verse compared to the chorus, or when the double pedals in the bass are louder when it is approaching the chorus. All of these elements are in DT12 also.  I really can not find any substance in the argument that there is NO dynamics in MM's drumming.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

MM is only hitting each drum at the same velocity and at the same distance within a particular part. He is not playing every single part of every song that way at the same level. But if he's playing the intro to Nightmare, then yes, he's keeping consistency between the hits. He is adjusting velocity and distance depending upon the dynamics that the part calls for.

[adastra]

._. don't fight guys...

But yeah,  IMO  MM's drumming is boring... But that's propably because I'm not a drummer and don't understand all the cool stuff he is doing behind the drums.

[jakepriest]

If you can hear dynamics in DT12 then all the power to you. To me every single snare and bass drum hit sounds the same.

[King Postwhore]

That's not his playing though.  It's how it was recorded.

[mikeyd23]

That's not his playing though.  It's how it was recorded.

Thats exactly what I was thinking...

In my eyes it comes down to this: MM is a more consistent hitter than MP but not to the degree in which the final product of DT12 suggests.  The production aspect definitely affected the sounds of the drums making them seem more "robotic" if you will.

[Onno]

Honestly, the 3 times I saw DT with MM live I noticed more dynamics in his playing than on DT12 or ADTOE, but he still sounded a bit 'robotic', especially when he plays a ride or closed hi-hat.

[tiagodon]

When I said that there´s no feeling in MM´s drumming, I meant that (1) the playing sounds robotic and (2) the playing sounds artificial and too mathematical. In other words, it seems that MM is just following the song and not creating music. His playing is more predictable than Portnoys.
MM is a very rich and complex metronome. MP was more than a metronome.
That´s what I feel when I listen to his playing. Yes, it is kind of personal and subjective.
If it is due to the bad production, well, I don´t know...

[RodrigoAltaf]

When I said that there´s no feeling in MM´s drumming, I meant that (1) the playing sounds robotic and (2) the playing sounds artificial and too mathematical. In other words, it seems that MM is just following the song and not creating music. His playing is more predictable than Portnoys.
MM is a very rich and complex metronome. MP was more than a metronome.
That´s what I feel when I listen to his playing. Yes, it is kind of personal and subjective.
If it is due to the bad production, well, I don´t know...

It IS a matter of personal opinion, with which I happen to agree.

[Nearmyth]

To me, it seems like MP's playing accented the music, while MM's playing more so follows the music. You can tell throughout DT12 in certain parts that he basically plays the exact parts of the instruments, just on his drum kit, while MP might've more accented and supported the other instruments in another way (be it a counter-beat or what have you). I think the MM's true skill and potential got muddled in, yet again, a bad mixing of the drums.

And even though he let loose a bit in DT12, I can sort of tell MM is still playing it a bit safe. It's his first DT album where he is actually there with the recording and writing of the album, personally composing his drum parts. He wont have the same comfortableness that MP had (at least, not for a while). I think his drumming in DT12 (and in general) is great, but that's just my opinion on the argument saying it was more than just bad production.

[Zook]

The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.

And that's easily the worst part of that song.

Agreed, but only because it's so blatant. I love This Dying Soul.

To me, it seems like MP's playing accented the music, while MM's playing more so follows the music. You can tell throughout DT12 in certain parts that he basically plays the exact parts of the instruments, just on his drum kit, while MP might've more accented and supported the other instruments in another way (be it a counter-beat or what have you). I think the MM's true skill and potential got muddled in, yet again, a bad mixing of the drums.

And even though he let loose a bit in DT12, I can sort of tell MM is still playing it a bit safe. It's his first DT album where he is actually there with the recording and writing of the album, personally composing his drum parts. He wont have the same comfortableness that MP had (at least, not for a while). I think his drumming in DT12 (and in general) is great, but that's just my opinion on the argument saying it was more than just bad production.

MP did his own thing with the drums which made his sound unique. MM follows the other instruments like you said, and is sort of keeping the beat, but to a much more advanced degree.