Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Stadler]

Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.

Good points all around though, but personally, I honestly don't see why JLB wouldn't fit into that criteria. I mean, maybe not at the level of the three you mentioned, but those guys are/were the absolute masters, and even guys like Ozzy can't be held to their standards.

Well, I understand your points and I agree to an extent, but it depends on what we're talking about; we are talking about great metal singers.   I don't consider JLB a metal singer, and if you want someone else in this category, I'd give you Ian Gillan.  Ian Gillan is AMAZING, and for him to sound as good as he does today is miraculous (though I don't think anyone would say he sounds THE SAME as he did in '69), but he isn't Rob Halford either.  This will sound odd, but I LOVE Gillan, I LOVE Sabbath, and I LOVE Born Again (one of my favorite Sabbath albums), but I don't really think it is a great representation of Gillan.  He does well, but that is clearly not his forte. 

I do think that there is one criterion that should carry over, and that is the furtherance of the melody line in a way that adds something to the piece as opposed to just "doubling the lead instrument" (which a lot of singers do).   I'm thinking of "This Is The Life" (and there are other examples of this as well) where JLB doubles his OWN part; I think that is inspired, and I think that not every singer could do that and have it sound that good.  BIG Paul Stanley fan (I mean BIG) but he couldn't do that as effectively.  He just doesn't have the voice for it (though Gillan could). 

For me personally, I tend to make a very clear distinction between singer and front man. Bruce Dickinson to me, first and foremost, the absolute greatest Metal front man. The kind of energy he brings to a show is unparalleled. And there are only a handful of guys who have ever come close. One of which being Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. If you watch any of their concert footage you will see that Dee is almost as good as Bruce Dickinson in terms of getting the audience energy up, interacting with them, and just captivating the whole room with his energy and stage presence.

Another interesting point, and not to sound like a kiss-ass, but I tried to account for that in my post.  I DON'T actually think Dio is a great frontman, and Halford is in-between for me.  I think Dickinson is the best metal frontman as well, but not the other two, and I tried to limit it to just singing.  And by the way, nice call with Dee Snider; I LOVE Dee, and I always cite Twisted Sister as one of those bands that really IS a guilty pleasure.  God, I wish they would not be so cartoony sometimes; You Can't Stop Rock and Roll is an UNBELIEVEABLE metal album, but I can never shake that stupid f-ing picture of Dee with a turkey bone in his hand...  embarrassing...

When it comes to the term 'singer' however, for me, that's entirely about how crafter the individual is. The range, the technique, etc. And honestly, I can't think of a single metal singer who's maintained, or even regained their range into their 50s the way JLB has. That's really the main reason I consider him one of Metal's greats. It takes a certain kind of discipline to take care of one's voice and maintain one's range so well. Rob Halford did a pretty great job of maintaining his voice too. Honestly, he'd be my number one pick as the best Metal singer, just for the sheer fact that he can still hit quite a few of those really high parts at Judas Priest shows. Or at least he could last I heard him, that might not be the case anymore, I don't know.

See, that's interesting, because I agree with all of it except the "metal" designation, and if I'm being honest, I'm not sure why.  They do have metal in their catalogue, and if you look at the cover series (both the Ytsejam album sets and the one release that is just songs) JLB can sing almost ANYBODY to an amazing degree (who else could credibly cover Dickinson, Dio, Ozzy, Hetfield, Waters, Gilmour, Gillan, Mercury, Anderson, Perry, Plant, Walsh, and Daltrey... c'mon.  Dio could barely cover the Ozzy stuff; not because he didn't have the range, but because his voice is so singular). 

Yeah, I never got that myself. I was always up for the idea of re-recording the drums, and remixing the album. I don't think it's all that untouchable. If people don't like it, they'd still have the original, no one's gonna take it away from them. But hearing songs in different mixes always brings out certain nuances that couldn't be heard before. It's half the reason I listen to live albums at all.

Blasphemer!!!!  Hahaha, I kid; I&W is my favorite DT album, but to me, it is what it is, and the live albums are what they are.  I LIKE that they are different enough, and that the live renditions bring something new to the table.  I realize this is bordering on cliché now, but if they are going to re-record something, I would vote for WDADU.  I am so used to James' vocals as the sound of DT that I have a hard time getting into that album, even though I recognize that musically it isn't that far removed from I&W and Awake. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I understand your points and I agree to an extent, but it depends on what we're talking about; we are talking about great metal singers.   I don't consider JLB a metal singer, and if you want someone else in this category, I'd give you Ian Gillan.  Ian Gillan is AMAZING, and for him to sound as good as he does today is miraculous (though I don't think anyone would say he sounds THE SAME as he did in '69), but he isn't Rob Halford either.  This will sound odd, but I LOVE Gillan, I LOVE Sabbath, and I LOVE Born Again (one of my favorite Sabbath albums), but I don't really think it is a great representation of Gillan.  He does well, but that is clearly not his forte. 

I do think that there is one criterion that should carry over, and that is the furtherance of the melody line in a way that adds something to the piece as opposed to just "doubling the lead instrument" (which a lot of singers do).   I'm thinking of "This Is The Life" (and there are other examples of this as well) where JLB doubles his OWN part; I think that is inspired, and I think that not every singer could do that and have it sound that good.  BIG Paul Stanley fan (I mean BIG) but he couldn't do that as effectively.  He just doesn't have the voice for it (though Gillan could).

...


See, that's interesting, because I agree with all of it except the "metal" designation, and if I'm being honest, I'm not sure why.  They do have metal in their catalogue, and if you look at the cover series (both the Ytsejam album sets and the one release that is just songs) JLB can sing almost ANYBODY to an amazing degree (who else could credibly cover Dickinson, Dio, Ozzy, Hetfield, Waters, Gilmour, Gillan, Mercury, Anderson, Perry, Plant, Walsh, and Daltrey... c'mon.  Dio could barely cover the Ozzy stuff; not because he didn't have the range, but because his voice is so singular). 

Well, I think we're getting a little too much into semantic territory.

Because you're obviously giving JLB his props. He is an amazing singer. And Dream Theater as a band are unquestionably a Metal band, even if not for 100% of their songs. And JLB's solo stuff lately has been riding into some very heavy territories.

So I think the question is, do we make a distinction between being a "Metal singer" and being a "Singer in Metal"? I mean, maybe that's the issue. I would unquestionably say that JLB is one best singers in Metal.
But if we were to make a distinction between the two, then yes, I understand what you mean. Because when it comes to being a "Metal singer", I'd say there are guys out there who just have those typical Metal qualities that make them more suitable for the genre, such as Tim "The Ripper" Owens or Russell Allen. They both just have so much power that they absolutely destroy any song they sing (in a good way.) And if anything, I'd say they'd be the best two Metal Vocalists in my book, based on the overall evolution of metal, and their voices having a traditional quality suitable for, say, Judas Priest or Dio songs, but at the same time, still having enough aggression to be able to fit in with more modern sounds.

Of course, talking about this whole Metal singer business, I'm not even sure we can define what a good Metal singer is, because Metal itself has evolved into so many subgenres, that even for guys like Allen and Owens, it would be impossible to fit in with ALL of them. So maybe we need to start making a bit more of that distinction between Heavy Metal, Prog Metal, Thrash Metal, Symphonic Metal, etc.
JLB actually has a very conventionally fitting voice for genres like Glam Metal, Power Metal, and of course, Prog, everything that's more melodic and not as downtuned. Whereas, you have him try to do Thrash, then yes, I do think he just can't do justice to Master of Puppets at all. That's not a big deal, James Hetfield has the perfect voice for Thrash, but he wouldn't be able to pull off The Spirit Carries On to save his life. "Victoria's Real! Yeeeah!"

So I think that's why when it comes to judging JLB as a Metal singer, I don't really put convention into account, and judge him purely based on his ability, because it is very fitting in Prog and other, more melodic genres. If I was asked who's the best Prog Metal Singer? I would say James LaBrie, hands down, bar none.

Another interesting point, and not to sound like a kiss-ass, but I tried to account for that in my post.  I DON'T actually think Dio is a great frontman, and Halford is in-between for me.  I think Dickinson is the best metal frontman as well, but not the other two, and I tried to limit it to just singing.  And by the way, nice call with Dee Snider; I LOVE Dee, and I always cite Twisted Sister as one of those bands that really IS a guilty pleasure.  God, I wish they would not be so cartoony sometimes; You Can't Stop Rock and Roll is an UNBELIEVEABLE metal album, but I can never shake that stupid f-ing picture of Dee with a turkey bone in his hand...  embarrassing...

I agree completely with the first part about Dio and Halford.
As for Dee, I have no problem with the cartoony stuff, and I take no shame in my love of Twisted Sister. 

Blasphemer!!!!  Hahaha, I kid; I&W is my favorite DT album, but to me, it is what it is, and the live albums are what they are.  I LIKE that they are different enough, and that the live renditions bring something new to the table.  I realize this is bordering on cliché now, but if they are going to re-record something, I would vote for WDADU.  I am so used to James' vocals as the sound of DT that I have a hard time getting into that album, even though I recognize that musically it isn't that far removed from I&W and Awake.

Yeah, but I think after WDAD Reunite, there's very little chance that it'll be rerecorded. But again, I have no problem with that, because there is a ton of great live material from that album with JLB to listen to. And even if someone isn't happy with how WDADRU turned out, the best of that album is available on other releases such as Live at the Marquee, Budokan, Score. Between them, they have A Fortune In Lies, The Killing Hand, Afterlife and Only A Matter of Time which are the best songs on the album. Ytsejam has been done well on multiple releases, and everything else on the album sounds just fine on the Reunite version, and even if JLB doesn't quite nail some parts, the three songs that are left aren't anything to write home about if you ask me, so I'm not really bothered by it.

[Stadler]

Well, I think we're getting a little too much into semantic territory.

Because you're obviously giving JLB his props. He is an amazing singer. And Dream Theater as a band are unquestionably a Metal band, even if not for 100% of their songs. And JLB's solo stuff lately has been riding into some very heavy territories.

Yeah, you know, I totally forgot about his solo stuff.  I have one of his albums (it's very good, but not DT) and you're right about the vibe of his solo CDs.  I don't mean it to be semantic, as I'm not a big "label" guy to start with, but for me (and I recognize not everyone sees it this way) I consider DT to be one of my favorite bands, and in large part that is because of James' voice.    I LOVE the way he sings, and I have no problem with what I've heard of his live performances. 

But if we were to make a distinction between the two, then yes, I understand what you mean. Because when it comes to being a "Metal singer", I'd say there are guys out there who just have those typical Metal qualities that make them more suitable for the genre, such as Tim "The Ripper" Owens or Russell Allen. They both just have so much power that they absolutely destroy any song they sing (in a good way.) And if anything, I'd say they'd be the best two Metal Vocalists in my book, based on the overall evolution of metal, and their voices having a traditional quality suitable for, say, Judas Priest or Dio songs, but at the same time, still having enough aggression to be able to fit in with more modern sounds.

I'd be curious what your criteria would be for "metal singer".  By the way, not to slag, but neither of those guys do anything for me.  Maybe it's context (Ripper taking over for Rob, Russell in what I consider to be fine cheese, AMob) but to me, yes, they have power, but they are not in the Dickinson/Halford/Dio league.  Not at all.   by the way, NOT a fan of some of the darker subgenres (even Thrash; I must prefer the recent, "singing" James Hetfield than the older version).

Yeah, but I think after WDAD Reunite, there's very little chance that it'll be rerecorded. But again, I have no problem with that, because there is a ton of great live material from that album with JLB to listen to. And even if someone isn't happy with how WDADRU turned out, the best of that album is available on other releases such as Live at the Marquee, Budokan, Score. Between them, they have A Fortune In Lies, The Killing Hand, Afterlife and Only A Matter of Time which are the best songs on the album. Ytsejam has been done well on multiple releases, and everything else on the album sounds just fine on the Reunite version, and even if JLB doesn't quite nail some parts, the three songs that are left aren't anything to write home about if you ask me, so I'm not really bothered by it.

Oh, I know; and I enjoy all that.  Sort of more a wistful dream than any real hope. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, you know, I totally forgot about his solo stuff.  I have one of his albums (it's very good, but not DT) and you're right about the vibe of his solo CDs.  I don't mean it to be semantic, as I'm not a big "label" guy to start with, but for me (and I recognize not everyone sees it this way) I consider DT to be one of my favorite bands, and in large part that is because of James' voice.    I LOVE the way he sings, and I have no problem with what I've heard of his live performances.

I'd be curious what your criteria would be for "metal singer".  By the way, not to slag, but neither of those guys do anything for me.  Maybe it's context (Ripper taking over for Rob, Russell in what I consider to be fine cheese, AMob) but to me, yes, they have power, but they are not in the Dickinson/Halford/Dio league.  Not at all.   by the way, NOT a fan of some of the darker subgenres (even Thrash; I must prefer the recent, "singing" James Hetfield than the older version).

Honestly, it's not even like I'm a big fan of those guys. I can only enjoy Russell Allen in small doses, because of just how loud and gut-rippingly aggressive his style is, and same with Tim Owens, he just gives it so much intensity that in large quanitities it's a little much, from what I've heard. But I can't not recognize them for their sheer ability. Listen to Tim Owens' cover of Mr. Crowley. He absolutely slays that song and destroys Ozzy.

But basically, my criteria for a "metal singer" would be someone who has great range and power, being able to wail high notes to a point where it can be described as face melting, like a guitar solo. But also someone who can still pull off more aggressive stuff, not necessarily on the level of thrash, but someone who has grit. Rob Halford is probably the most perfect example, in my book. He's not the most aggressive of vocalists, but he can still sound badass, and when it comes to high notes, he's a face melter if I ever heard one. And just the same, I'd say James LaBrie excels at these things as well.

But again, this is using traditional heavy metal standards. And even though I'm not the biggest thrash fan either, it, and heavier styles, are a part of Metal, and that just can't be denied. And those genres definitely have a different set of standards as to what constitutes great vocals.

[rumborak]

but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?

[TheGreatPretender]

but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?

What can I say? Overelaborating is fun. 

[Kotowboy]

but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?

What can I say? Overelaborating is fun. 

Well you're Overelaboring us to tears .

[King Postwhore]

TGP, you need a girlfriend.

[erwinrafael]

Enjoying the discussion.

[Mosh]

Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.

Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.

Well I mean, if you're going to hold JLB as this amazing singer who's up there with the best, then yea you have to make a case for him being at the standard of those masters. Because those are the best.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

This is just a general controversial opinion, but I've never really cared for Bruce Dickinson. He's not bad, but I never got the appeal.

[Madman Shepherd]

This is just a general controversial opinion, but I've never really cared for Bruce Dickinson. He's not bad, but I never got the appeal.

heh, I wouldn't say I've never cared for him but I definitely don't think he is one of the greats.  I would put him up there by default because he is a great frontman and an excellent vocalist....theres just a lot more that are great frontman and even more excellent vocalists.  Bruce is at the bottom end of the excellent category. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well I mean, if you're going to hold JLB as this amazing singer who's up there with the best, then yea you have to make a case for him being at the standard of those masters. Because those are the best.

Hey, if you ask me, when it comes to JLB, he's easily on par with them.

TGP, you need a girlfriend.

I'm trying. 

[7enderbender]

Ok, so here are a few thoughts. Not sure how "controversial" but his seemed like a good spot for it.

I consider myself an early adopter and DT fan since 89 or so. I absolutely loved (and still do) WDADU when it first came out back then. I picked up he second album the day it was released - love that one as well. And from there it went. Saw them together with maybe 100 folks at a small club on the Images and Words Tour. And from there it went. I look at all this through the eyes of a musician so I don't get hung up on "staffing issues" too much. All DT members over the years had something to contribute, without exception.

I'm currently reading the Lifting Shadows book. Interesting account of the events and approach and well written. How accurate or edited this all is I don't know of course but there are a few things that I found odd as one those early fans. I find the first albums get too much internal and external criticism in the book (and perhaps elsewhere). Are they "perfect"? Probably not, but given the time period, budgets, etc they sound more than decent and I still find that Dominici is a way better singer than he gets credit for. I never saw him live so I can't speak to that part but I actually am very fond of his performance on that debut album.

Fast forward over two decades: I'm not all too happy with some of the directions the band has taken in recent years, especially with the new album. I like it better now than when it first came out after giving it another chance - but it feels still a bit forced, formulaic - and I struggle with the choice of keyboard sounds, especially all and every faux symphonics that are just incredibly cheesy and, well, fake sounding.

With that in mind (and again, I don't care about WHO is playing but about the WHAT) I went through a refreshing period of listening to IAW and Awake in particular - and I wish DT would go back a bit in that direction in the future. Awake in my book is another one of those very underrated albums. Based on the book I understand how it may leave a bitter taste for the band. But it's a great album no matter what. And maybe I'm dating myself but the late 80s and early 90s had a lot to offer musically and as far as modern sounds go. It get ridiculed all too often. I was happy to see JP go back to a rack based system with a Triaxis etc. All that gear and those 90s sounds combined with modern recording technology should have a lot going for it. But please - no more artificial orchestras as on the recent album. Thanks for reading my rant.

[TheGreatPretender]

First of all, I think we've seen the worst of the artificial orchestra on A Dramatic Turn of Events. I don't think there was anything on DT12 that was quite as bad as on that album. So hopefully that's an indicator that it won't become a running theme in their future music.

Second, regarding Awake, I don't know who you've been talking to, but but around here, Awake tends to get almost universal praise, so much so that I'd almost call it overrated rather than underrated (keyword being 'Almost"). I actually haven't talked to very many people ANYWHERE who dislike Awake.

[7enderbender]

First of all, I think we've seen the worst of the artificial orchestra on A Dramatic Turn of Events. I don't think there was anything on DT12 that was quite as bad as on that album. So hopefully that's an indicator that it won't become a running theme in their future music.

Second, regarding Awake, I don't know who you've been talking to, but but around here, Awake tends to get almost universal praise, so much so that I'd almost call it overrated rather than underrated (keyword being 'Almost"). I actually haven't talked to very many people ANYWHERE who dislike Awake.

Interesting how different perceptions can be with this. On ADTOE there isn't really much that rubs that way while DT12 right off the bat starts out that way.

[TheGreatPretender]

Are you talking about False Awakening Suite? Naw, I love the way that sounds. It's the kind of orchestral and choral patches he used on Build Me Up Break Me Down, or on Outcry, that I didn't dig very much. Not enough to ruin the songs for me, but they'd be much higher on my list of favorites without that stuff.

[Grizz]

False Awakening Suite was an actual orchestra.

[TheGreatPretender]

False Awakening Suite was an actual orchestra.

Was it?

[rumborak]

They rerecorded it for BTFW, for some strange reason.

[TheGreatPretender]

They rerecorded it for BTFW, for some strange reason.

I guess they used the orchestra that was accompanying them at the show, no? Maybe not live, but maybe that's how they re-recorded it.
But the original, was it all made with real instruments? I thought it was like SDOIT Overture, just simulated.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

When we first got the track listing for the album I thought FAS was a super cool name, and I thought it would be something like A Mind Beside Itself, or something. I was disappointed.

[The Holy Tune]

When we first got the track listing for the album I thought FAS was a super cool name, and I thought it would be something like A Mind Beside Itself, or something. I was disappointed.

I had the same feeling, and I have an addition to this thing again from DT12.

I read a summary of the album when it wasn't released and they were doing some listening sessions with a few people. A guy wrote lots of correct things, but he also wrote that AFTR was a song with many time changes, many ragtime solos where Jordan shone and some crazy instrumentals. When they released the song before the album, my dreams were shattered Probably one of the few biggest disappointents about DT in my life(and it still feels boring, couldn't get into the song at all).

[rumborak]

Yeah, FAS definitely did not live up to its name. It's a nice concert opener, but it's not a suite by any stretch of the imagination. The name also seems to have no relation to anything really.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, FAS definitely did not live up to its name. It's a nice concert opener, but it's not a suite by any stretch of the imagination. The name also seems to have no relation to anything really.

Well considering that when they released the times for all the tracks, it was less than 3 minutes long, my hopes for it to be any real kind of a "suite" pretty much vanished. If anything, it's an Anti-Suite, in a way.

[rumborak]

While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

[TheGreatPretender]

While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

I'm not seeing the trend. What trajectory do you speak of?

[King Postwhore]

8V and ADTOE are similar in their sound.  Old sounding mixing.  Not in your face while SC and DT12 are very in your face, less organic in their sound.

[rumborak]

Exactamundo. DT 12 and SC have been their most compressed albums to date.
But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".

[TAC]

But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".

I could agree with that.

[Grizz]

Yes, FAS was orchestrated on the album. I don't have by liner notes on me, but I'm pretty sure that aside from Eren possibly having orchestrated it, it's all different people. The version on BTFW was orchestra only and slightly faster. It was used as an intro tape to accompany Blob's modern (and far superior to the early 2Ks versions) band history video at every Along for the Ride concert.

[RodrigoAltaf]

While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

Are you then suggesting that a lineup change may occur after the next album?!?!? Hummm...I wonder who will leave...

[King Postwhore]

No, he's suggesting that the next album will be and sound like BC&SL.

Why do you folks read into something not written?!  He already typed out his answer.

[Grizz]

Good, that means that it'll be far better than DTXII and probably one of my favorites but nobody else will like it after the second year.

[TheGreatPretender]

Exactamundo. DT 12 and SC have been their most compressed albums to date.
But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".

Well, I don't sense any of that. I mean, I don't overanalyze the mixing, so you may be right, but in terms of how they feel, I don't sense any similarities at all. If anything DT12 is the one that reminds me of 8V, certainly a lot more than ADTOE.