Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Prog Snob]

I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is.

Agreed, 100%. That's also how it should be for all music.

[pcs90]

Of course, it's not the only element and they can be represented by other styles and labels. Metal is a pretty broad term anyway so to dismiss those elements you might as well be dismissing drop tuning, palm muting, 7 strings, or basically every guitar tone that has scooped mid range.

And that brings up another thing. I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays even though it's usually classified as "prog metal". Similarly I generally don't like metal at all but love most of DT's music. A lot of the heavier songs are ones I skip, but I think Awake is great and there are other heavy songs scattered throughout their discography that I enjoy a lot. So how would you even define "metal?" Since DT is classified as metal and they have more light to medium songs than heavy ones, and metal is generally considered to be "heavy" (or so it seems), is that really the best categorization for them?

[EraVulgaris]

I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

[BlobVanDam]

I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

She sounds incredibly ignorant. I wouldn't marry her if I were you. I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Most people I know, know what metal actually is. But they don't live under a (prog) rock.

[pcs90]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

Exactly, and for a long time I had the same idea. Prog metal (or rock for that matter) isn't exactly something that is widely known, but just "metal" is such a generic term that many people are going to associate it with only one or 2 specific aspects of metal.

[Prog Snob]

I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

People have had that same ignorant generalization about metal for years. When I was going through grade school and high school, my classmates would always ask me, "Do you still listen to kill your mother, kill your father?" Eventually, my response was, "knowing that I listen to psychotic allegedly psychotic music, why would you tease me about it?"  Never again did someone ask me about the music I listen to.

[Stadler]

I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Let's not get crazy and over-react, now, Blob. 

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Let's not get crazy and over-react, now, Blob. 

It is the controversial opinion thread, after all.

[Kotowboy]

Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

The Astonishing is 3 discs.

And the discs are spherical.

[cramx3]

I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

People have had that same ignorant generalization about metal for years. When I was going through grade school and high school, my classmates would always ask me, "Do you still listen to kill your mother, kill your father?" Eventually, my response was, "knowing that I listen to psychotic allegedly psychotic music, why would you tease me about it?"  Never again did someone ask me about the music I listen to.

Almost every girl I meet when I tell her I like metal, I get the death stare and the follow up "I don't like screaming music" for which I have the same response as Era. 

[rumborak]

I just read MM's latest Facebook post, and I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future. He spent all that effort designing they simple military beat at the end of the title track, making it a 13:2 roll with a 7 tuplet in parallel (or something), but his drum sound is totally neglected (IMHO).

[Kotowboy]

Whenever I read or hear him say things like that - i'm like yeah but does it fit the song or are you just being über technical for the sake of it ?


He seems to love playing in 19 for some reason.

[Kotowboy]

also - Mike seems to spend longer explaining what he means or what he's doing than just posting what he did.

[cramx3]

Opinions on his style and sound are valid, but did we forget he was a professor at Berkley?  This is the stuff he loves.  It's not crazy to think of him writing out the technical parts of playing the drums is something he enjoys and is proud of.

I read his post too, way above my head since I am not a musician, but I like seeing how he writes out the details.

[BlobVanDam]

I just read MM's latest Facebook post, and I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future. He spent all that effort designing they simple military beat at the end of the title track, making it a 13:2 roll with a 7 tuplet in parallel (or something), but his drum sound is totally neglected (IMHO).

Yeah....... I'm with you 100%.

[Enigmachine]

Opinions on his style and sound are valid, but did we forget he was a professor at Berkley?  This is the stuff he loves.  It's not crazy to think of him writing out the technical parts of playing the drums is something he enjoys and is proud of.

I read his post too, way above my head since I am not a musician, but I like seeing how he writes out the details.

This, there's nothing wrong with his approach. Also, I get the feeling that he just sort of plays things like that then breaks it down afterwards.

I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.

Ok. I don't agree at all, his drumming has been very enjoyable for me to listen to. I actually think his drumming just as memorable as MP's.

[rumborak]

All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.

[BlobVanDam]

All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.

I agree again. He's no doubt one of the most technically proficient drummers in the world, much more so than MP, but in terms of which drummer I find more enjoyable and memorable, there's not even a comparison to be made for me. I think he's fitting a whole lot better on TA than he has in the past, but it's only a start.

[Enigmachine]

All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me.

Indeed it is personal opinion. MP and MM just have different styles and achieve the same things with different means. When you say "I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.", it seems to be discounting those who like MM's style and analytical nature. I also don't get what's wrong in him taking a deeper look into what he's doing and it doesn't seem like you considered that MM naturally drums stuff like what you mentioned and just likes to analyse it afterwards to see why it works (like him preferring odd tuplets over even ones).

[BlobVanDam]

All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me.

Indeed it is personal opinion. MP and MM just have different styles and achieve the same things with different means. When you say "I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.", it seems to be discounting those who like MM's style and analytical nature.

I don't see how you could take rumby's comment that way, it's clearly a personal opinion, and infers nothing about anyone else's opinion.

[rumborak]

Well, the hilarious part of that whole thing is, the whole "problem" he is trying to avoid with this over-complicated scheme of odd tuplets and whatnot, is because he playing his rolls in such a mechanical manner that it sticks out. The point of a drum roll is to be an indiscernible blur of small hits. MM practiced himself to be so precise that you start noticing how unnaturally regular they are; so he finds himself having to counteract it by making it so complicated that one can't follow it again. It's like, training yourself to be like a computer, and then putting additional effort to *not* make you sound like one.

EDIT: This is actually exactly the problem MIDI sequencers have, and why they often have a "humanize" button you can click that introduces human variation.

[Progmetty]

Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.
Then again maybe it was better having someone like MP in the band who's so different than JP and JR.

[cramx3]

Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.
Then again maybe it was better having someone like MP in the band who's so different than JP and JR.

Well I think MM fits in better as your typical drummer, where as MP was not only the drummer, but also the leader of the band.  I had no problems with MP on stage antics.  He liked to work the crowd, nothing wrong with that if you ask me.  He didn't really do any of that when I saw Winery Dogs last fall, probably because he is not the leader of the band.  He probably doesn't feel he needs to be involved in that capacity.  That's just my guess.

[Enigmachine]

I don't see how you could take rumby's comment that way, it's clearly a personal opinion, and infers nothing about anyone else's opinion.

Actually yeah, I probably shouldn't have criticised that part of his comment like that. I guess I'd just like for MM to have more appreciation but obviously I'm not going to be changing anyone's mind.

Well, the hilarious part of that whole thing is, the whole "problem" he is trying to avoid with this over-complicated scheme of odd tuplets and whatnot, is because he playing his rolls in such a mechanical manner that it sticks out. The point of a drum roll is to be an indiscernible blur of small hits. MM practiced himself to be so precise that you start noticing how unnaturally regular they are; so he finds himself having to counteract it by making it so complicated that one can't follow it again. It's like, training yourself to be like a computer, and then putting additional effort to *not* make you sound like one.

EDIT: This is actually exactly the problem MIDI sequencers have, and why they often have a "humanize" button you can click that introduces human variation.

I must have a different album from you, then. MM doesn't seem that mechanical to me, he supports the music just fine and does a lot of cool stuff. I really doubt that MM finds himself in the position you are describing. There's no problem and I don't see what's hilarious.

Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.

I agree with this.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The only time I've ever seen MM live was in 1995 with Extreme, so I can't say much about his onstage persona now, but it sounds like he's fairly serious.  That's one thing I loved about seeing DT was MP's energy behind the drum kit.  He is an entertainer and I think it was a good balance to the concentration and seriousness of everyone else on stage.  When I saw him with TWD at the M3 Festival, same way.  He was seriously into it and was extremely entertaining to watch, his drum abilities aside.

[Progmetty]

The only time I've ever seen MM live was in 1995 with Extreme, so I can't say much about his onstage persona now, but it sounds like he's fairly serious.

Oh dude he's so not serious , if I weren't at work I'd have loved to find you some youtube videos, I saw them 3 times on the ADToE tour and one of the shows I had really good seats close to the front and MM simply grabbed my attention most with his clowning, beside his amazing performance of course.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Ah, okay, cool.  I think I took that from this:

the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.

To be fair to you, you DID say that MM isn't stiff or exactly the opposite of MP, but I guess this made it sound like he was a lot more "serious" (for lack of a better word), than he probably is.  As noted, I have no frame of reference.  I saw him 21 years ago with Extreme in a little dive in Norfolk, VA. 

[Progmetty]

That's cool man, DT was the first I ever heard of him but now I'm interested to see some of his old stuff that you're talking about

[rumborak]

I saw him with Tribe of Judah, and he was a riot even back then.

[TAC]

All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.

I agree again. He's no doubt one of the most technically proficient drummers in the world, much more so than MP, but in terms of which drummer I find more enjoyable and memorable, there's not even a comparison to be made for me. I think he's fitting a whole lot better on TA than he has in the past, but it's only a start.

I agree with this. The thing with MP and MM to me is that while MP was an excellent drummer, there was a certain "playalongability" to his parts. With MM, it's so complex, air drumming is almost impossible. But I noticed on TA that I am tapping along quite a bit, and I'm really enjoying it.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

An MM solo from 1995 with Extreme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co1NGVvpYcw

Ridiculously impressive.

[King Postwhore]

I do agree with Rumbo that there a hard pounding swing to MP that is missing from the band. MM is so proficient that it looks easier.  He's also hit's with less impact.   MP added that hard hitting, grooving background to the music.  This coming from a guy that wanted MM.   It's not the end of the world mind you.

It does remind me of so many conversation I've read over the years about Neil Peart's playing.  "Too Mechanical" was always the storyline.

Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.

[abydos]

This reminds me why I wanted Virgil Donati to take MP's spot.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

It's like 2010 all over again.

[LCArenas]

Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro