Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[WheyWaffles]

Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.

[ASacrificedSon]

Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro

Yes. That synth annoys me like heck.

Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.

That would be pretty tedious, but if they could do that, major respect. 

[rumborak]

Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.

A very interesting point, and I agree. I think many of those things he does, I.e.constraining himself to the metal-type, double bass etc drumming seems to come from his perception what he should be playing in DT. He clearly is able of much more subtlety and dynamics.

[Stadler]

Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.

A very interesting point, and I agree. I think many of those things he does, I.e.constraining himself to the metal-type, double bass etc drumming seems to come from his perception what he should be playing in DT. He clearly is able of much more subtlety and dynamics.

I'm not sure I 100% feel this way about Mangini (I have other criticisms ), but as a general proposition, I feel this is a (bad) trend in today's music.   If you look back, the best music was that music that pushed the boundaries of expectation a little bit.   Not just "prog", but generally.   Bill Ward playing, basically, jazz drums under Iommi's heavy blues, with Geezer's Beatle-esque bass lines.  Ritchie Blackmore playing Bach while Ian Gillan sang Little Richard.   Zeppelin.  Yes.  CRIMSON!   I think when musicians resist their inner instinct to go for "what is expected of this band" then problems arise.   I am a mad Mike Portnoy fanboy, but it's the one thing I worry about with all the things he has going on:  Amob/MA is the Metal stuff, TA is the prog stuff, TWD is the classic stuff, FC is the pop stuff...  but what about if he has this cool metal fill; why not try it in TA?   Why not throw that prog thing into TWD?  Certainly Billy and Richie can handle it.   Isn't that what Dream Theater was best at?  Freddie Mercury singing over James Hetfield playing in front of Neil Peart with Keith Emerson providing melodic harmony?

Limitations in music are, in my humble opinion, bad. 

[King Postwhore]

I have a friend that was a touring drummer.  The man could do the Exit Stage Left YYZ solo to a tee but when it came to original music he held back always saying he played what fit the song.  I told him to put his stamp on the song by doing flourishes of himself.  He didn't have to overplay but to put a bit of his style into the song.

even the greats sometime feel the need to play "what fits for the song".

[emtee]

A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

[King Postwhore]

A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

I think he has now.  The first album no.  The last 2 he has.  Nothing wrong.  I more worried about his drum sound the last 2 albums than his playing style.

[BlobVanDam]

A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

The songs were all written before MM's involvement in the case of ADTOE and TA, but DT12 was supposed to be "MM unleashed", so I think that's a fair discussion at the very least. Even in the case of TA, I assume he was still given free rein to interpret the parts however he wanted, as apparently there were no drums on what he was given.

[emtee]

A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

The songs were all written before MM's involvement in the case of ADTOE and TA, but DT12 was supposed to be "MM unleashed", so I think that's a fair discussion at the very least. Even in the case of TA, I assume he was still given free rein to interpret the parts however he wanted, as apparently there were no drums on what he was given.

I understand but won't make the assumption that he is totally free to do what he wants from a creative standpoint. When he publicly
states that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted on this album then I would have more to say but since JP is the producer
I assume he has final say and that he makes suggestions about what he wants, just as he does with JLB.

[rumborak]

3 albums in, I'm not sure what else one could wait for at this point. I think we've seen the extent of his creative contributions, for better or for worse.

[BlobVanDam]

At this point I think he has as much creative freedom as he wants to have, which is good enough for me. I don't see any good reason that discussing MM's work in DT isn't fair game.

Love the new avatar btw, rumby.

[Stadler]

I have a friend that was a touring drummer.  The man could do the Exit Stage Left YYZ solo to a tee but when it came to original music he held back always saying he played what fit the song.  I told him to put his stamp on the song by doing flourishes of himself.  He didn't have to overplay but to put a bit of his style into the song.

even the greats sometime feel the need to play "what fits for the song".

I'm not saying anything that conflicts with that.   I think it's fair to say that what Bill and Geezer put into Sabbath "fit the song".  Listen to "After Forever" or "Children of the Sea" or "Walk Away", and Geezer is not playing what is expected of a "Metal bass player" (think: Ian Hill).  He's doing something in my view pretty unique and out of the box, yet it is a PERFECT fit within the song.  Likewise, we can point to 100 metal songs where the drummer is doing stock metal blast beats and it's as jarring as finger nails on a chalk board. 

[rumborak]

You know, I was surprised nobody else had done that with their avatar! I'm sitting in a hotel room in Georgia, nursing a massive head cold I got from running around on a freezing army base all week, so I finally had the time to create the avatar

[emtee]

At this point I think he has as much creative freedom as he wants to have, which is good enough for me. I don't see any good reason that discussing MM's work in DT isn't fair game.

Love the new avatar btw, rumby.

It's totally fair game IMO but the dynamic and conversation (as well as my thoughts) would change if I found out he did what he was asked
instead of what he wanted.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't see a reason to speculate about his creative input any more than the drummer in any other band. He's given plenty enough creative freedom for us to judge his playing with DT.
And it wouldn't change my opinion of his drumming in any way regardless.

[nikatapi]

I think BTFW is a great demonstration of how Mike plays, and how he interprets already written parts.
Sadly the studio albums suffer from a very artificial sound (except for ADTOE which has very low volume for the cymbals) and once again i feel that the sound doesn't do justice to all the intricacies and dynamics he applies to his playing.

[LCArenas]

Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro

Yes. That synth annoys me like heck.

That's actually my controversial opinion I love the synth intro more and I think it really fits with the overall theme of the song.

[terrell39]

This posting will show I am too picky but...When watching Dream Theater live, the guitarist John is on my right. Yet when listening to a studio recording, when a song has a break and only the guitar is playing, the guitar is in the left channel. Examples are early in Illumination Theory, the break in Rite of Passage, the middle of Erotomania, the first guitar you hear during the intro to Bridges in the Sky.

The reason I mention this is I do not agree with the choice to put John's guitar in the left channel, it should be in the right because from the audience's point of view, that is where he is. For this reason, I only listen to these songs with earbuds on so I can switch them so I hear the band from the same point of view as I see them.

[chaossystem]

Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.

So you don't like ANY of the music that Jordan writes?

[red barchetta]

A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

I think he has now.  The first album no.  The last 2 he has.  Nothing wrong.  I more worried about his drum sound the last 2 albums than his playing style.

So true. The bass drums sound like a drum machine. I would appreciate a more define, precise and clear sound from each parts of the drum kit. Portnoy did have a great sound from his skins.

[pcs90]

So true. The bass drums sound like a drum machine. I would appreciate a more define, precise and clear sound from each parts of the drum kit. Portnoy did have a great sound from his skins.

This is interesting because I feel that Mangini's sound, while not my preferred drum sound at all, is very defined, precise and clear. The fact that the drums sound very mechanical should make it easier to hear each hit.
But really this is only on the studio recordings. If you listen to his kit acoustically it does not sound like this at all. It's a much more natural sound, like some of Portnoy's kits.

[King Postwhore]

His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

[pcs90]

His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

Well, no dimension I can totally agree with.
It would help if he didn't tune his toms so low. They have a muted "slappy" sound to them.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

His ADTOE drum sound has been his best so far. Shame it wasn't that good of a mix.

[Enigmachine]

I like MM's sound on DT12 and TA. Sounds really powerful and clear to me.

[Carlos_7x]

I like MM's sound on DT12 and TA. Sounds really powerful and clear to me.

It's a different style from Portnoy's. But the thing that really annoys me is the Snare sound in the 3 MM albums: ADToE sounds so powerless, while the DT12 and TA sounds exactly the same as I&W. I think the songs would sound better if the snare has more power.

[rumborak]

His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

To me his kick drum sounds like a typewriter. Unless you are listening with something that can deliver the very low end strongly, all that remains is the click sound, and that totally sounds like a typewriter. *Particularly* at the end of TGOM.

[Enigmachine]

His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

To me his kick drum sounds like a typewriter. Unless you are listening with something that can deliver the very low end strongly, all that remains is the click sound, and that totally sounds like a typewriter. *Particularly* at the end of TGOM.

You must have a weird typewriter then. The mid frequencies in MM's kick sound on TA are pushed up for clarity, but there is still enough low end to really drive the music.

[King Postwhore]

What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.

[hefdaddy42]

This posting will show I am too picky but...When watching Dream Theater live, the guitarist John is on my right. Yet when listening to a studio recording, when a song has a break and only the guitar is playing, the guitar is in the left channel. Examples are early in Illumination Theory, the break in Rite of Passage, the middle of Erotomania, the first guitar you hear during the intro to Bridges in the Sky.

The reason I mention this is I do not agree with the choice to put John's guitar in the left channel, it should be in the right because from the audience's point of view, that is where he is. For this reason, I only listen to these songs with earbuds on so I can switch them so I hear the band from the same point of view as I see them.

This may be the strangest thing I've seen posted in this thread.

[Enigmachine]

What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.

It sounds just like a kick drum to me though. I guess I'm just more used to hearing the clearer kick with higher frequencies than a more natural kick with more of a boomy sound. I like the extra clarity on the TA kicks more than the almost feel-it-more-than-you-can-hear-it kick on 8vm. Nothing wrong with either.

[rumborak]

What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.

I mean, for better or for worse, his whole kit sound is very consistent in that. The snare is very "Pang!" too. Apparently some people can discern dynamics, I am not in that fortunate group. Even when he tries to do softer rolls, I feel he's fighting the sound. For DT12 he even said as much, that it was hard to do ghost notes and stuff with the drum sound he had.

[King Postwhore]

Exactly.

[Enigmachine]

Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. I think a few MP drum sounds are worse, as well as the one on ADToE.

[Ben_Jamin]

As I said in The Astonishing thread...

JAMES LABRIE ONLY HAD THREE LINES....


HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAHA