Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TAC]

Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

Gee, that's swell!

[bosk1]

[pg1067]

Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

When I think about volume swells, the first thing that comes to mind is the intro to Xanadu by Rush.  The second thing that comes to mind is Cathedral by Van Halen.  Alex Lifeson uses a volume pedal on Xanadu, whereas Meniketti used the volume knob in the linked video.  I believe (but am not sure) that EVH also uses the knob on Cathedral.

[ReaperKK]

Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

I'm a sucker for volume swells so I can't wait to hear this

Gee, that's swell!

[TAC]

I never said that!!!

[Herrick]

I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.

[gzarruk]

I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.

We all know he can sing the parts, and he actually does on every show, but what's the point of doing it if his mic has little to no volume at all? I just don't get it.

[Evai]

Probably because it's fun? He likely hears himself perfectly clear in his monitor mix.

But honestly don't think it would work without the backing track. JP can stay on pitch, but without Portnoy I don't think it would sound right.

[Podaar]

Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

That's the proper way to do volume swells, I approve! 

But, boy-o-boy, Meniketti really needs to have JP teach him how to construct and phrase a lead break. Other than the volume swells, that was terrible! Especially after he sings for a while. I've never heard a pro hit so many sour notes. 

[TAC]

Well, it was nice knowing you, Podaar! 

[KevShmev]

I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.

We all know he can sing the parts, and he actually does on every show, but what's the point of doing it if his mic has little to no volume at all? I just don't get it.

Because it is a better look visually to have one of the band members at the mic singing when a backup vocal is being heard, and I would submit that 99% of fans either don't know or don't care that JP is barely audible underneath the pre-recorded backing track, but this is DTF WHERE WE NITPICK.  

[Dublagent66]

I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.

[bosk1]

Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

That's the proper way to do volume swells, I approve! 

But, boy-o-boy, Meniketti really needs to have JP teach him how to construct and phrase a lead break. Other than the volume swells, that was terrible! Especially after he sings for a while. I've never heard a pro hit so many sour notes. 

[TAC]

I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.

I don't get it at all, frankly.

[Lethean]

Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

So just like with Rush, I'm perfectly fine with what DT is doing.  I don't think they're trying to fool anyone.  I think we all know that JP doesn't in fact sound exactly like James.  If you listen really hard for it, you can hear JP's voice too, especially if you're up close.  Now, I personally would be fine with him not singing at all and them just using a backing track, but I'm also fine with the way they're doing it now. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I was searching for videos from this European leg and found this...

https://youtu.be/bchalGgfsx8

I can hear JP pretty well.

[Dublagent66]

I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.

I don't get it at all, frankly.

That's ok Tim.  I still love you.   

[425]

Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).

[cramx3]

I actually really enjoy MP doing backing vocals, both live and on album.  I have no care for him singing any leads, but thought he had a good voice for complementing the singer.  Sort of like Michael Anthony on Van Halen (although I think this guy is the ultimate backing vocalist so MP isn't on that level) who just adds a different and good backing voice to the music, but I wouldn't want him singing the songs.

[MirrorMask]

Didn't Mike say something, back in the days, along the lines of "Since we [MP and JP] are gonna sing backup vocals live anyway, it's important to have our voices on the record, otherwise live we'll just sound as a weaker version of James"? I can see his reasoning... for example if in The Ministry of Lost Souls Petrucci wouldn't sing those two single lines, live it would have sound weird and inferior.

[Lethean]

Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).

I think we just have totally different preferences on this sort of thing.  For me, if a band has other guys who are really good singers (and Brian May was pretty good), then that's one thing.  But if the band doesn't, then I just prefer them to let their singer handle it.  And I don't think that's even a draw back - for example I don't think Rush would have been "even better" if only they'd had multiple voices on the album.  I don't have an interest in another voice with Rush, and don't with DT either - especially after having heard the alternative.  And it doesn't at all matter to me if the vocals could have been done in one take or not.  Redemption had a few songs where Ray Alder was singing two or maybe 3 melodies at the same time at the end of the song, and it sounded fantastic.  Of course it couldn't have been done in one take, but I'm glad they didn't let that stop them from doing it. 

For Black Clouds - I actually like that album quite a bit, but I'd prefer it with just James handling the vocals.

For the live show... I guess I'm in between.  I don't have a hard line "everything must be live" stance.  Especially when it comes to backing vocals.  If the guys in the band aren't good singers (and I realize this is a matter of taste), I'm totally fine with the backing vocals being brought in.  On the other hand, I'm not cool with bands not having a bass player and using backing tracks for that live.  Why is it different?  I dunno, it just is. 

[Lethean]

I actually really enjoy MP doing backing vocals, both live and on album.  I have no care for him singing any leads, but thought he had a good voice for complementing the singer.  Sort of like Michael Anthony on Van Halen (although I think this guy is the ultimate backing vocalist so MP isn't on that level) who just adds a different and good backing voice to the music, but I wouldn't want him singing the songs.

I will say that I think MP and JP both got better with backing vocals as time went on, which is definitely a plus.  But there were still times where (for me) it just didn't sound good, and plenty of times where MP's backing vocals were too loud in the mix.

[cramx3]

Yea, I'm going off recent memory regarding MP.  Even just in TWD recently he sounded great doing the backing vocals.

[Setlist Scotty]

Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).

Couldn't agree with you more 425 - beautiful post! Yes, there are some things that realistically cannot be reproduced live because they were a studio creation, but backing vocals are not one of them when you have very competent musicians that can do them, as has always been evident from FII onward. Even listening to TtT live, I'd rather have MP and JP doing the backing vocals than backing tapes of JL's multi-tracked vocals from the original sessions.

[PetFish]

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound).

Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.

I'm perfectly fine with any band using backing tracks for portions of their music and then I look at these rave DJs with their headsets on nodding their heads as they press PLAY and the audience goes crazy cuz they're listening to the CD track and nothing is "live" and that's weaksauce.

*Yes, I know there's more to DJing than that, but that's certainly not what it looks like.  This SNL skit is exactly what it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCawU6BE8P8

[Setlist Scotty]

Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.

I can't speak for 425, but for me, that logic DOES apply to guitarists. But to be honest (and maybe it's because it's late here and I should be in bed), I'm having a hard time trying to think of songs where JP plays lead and rhythm in the studio. That's one of the things I love about DT - the lack of superficial overdubbing that they couldn't replicate live. Of course, JP will multi-track his guitars, but that's playing the same parts to thicken up the sound, which I wouldn't say applies here. Can you cite some examples of where he does separate rhythm and lead guitars at the same time?

On a separate note - loved that SNL DJ clip! That's pretty spot on about (at least) people's perception of what DJs do at their shows.

[Evai]

. Can you cite some examples of where he does separate rhythm and lead guitars at the same time?

Every song on DT12 and ADToE has rhythm guitar underneath the solos.

[nikatapi]

Also on TOT there's a lot of leads and rhythm guitars at the same time.

[KevShmev]

Also, the intro to The Count of Tuscany has that electric lead played over the acoustic that kicks off the song.

[mikeyd23]

And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.

[Ben_Jamin]

And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.

Which is why i love D/T. Due to him not playing rhythm, it allows the bass sound to sound more clearer. Also, making the drums and bass finally be the groove of the solo

[Herrick]

And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.

Which is why i love D/T. Due to him not playing rhythm, it allows the bass sound to sound more clearer. Also, making the drums and bass finally be the groove of the solo

I like this approach on albums that only have one guitar player because when I hear a live version, it doesn't sound like something's missing.

[Setlist Scotty]

And also the majority of the band's catalog...

I stand corrected. I went ahead and checked out Jammit's guitar stems for Awake and was surprised to see that there was as much overdubbing as there was. That got me to thinking "why doesn't it bother me the same way the backing vocals do?" And I think the answer is that a lot of what is overdubbed is more textural than anything, and is buried in the mix so that I never really noticed it. I would also imagine that at least in some cases, JR may cover some of the overdubbing live on his keys so that those parts are covered. (It should be noted that I think it was a real travesty that JR didn't play the second guitar part on the intro to TCoT live, and that JP did it to a backing track - UGH!) So I would guess the reason why these overdubbed guitars (of which I wasn't really even aware of most of them) don't bother me the way the backing vocals do is because they are nowhere near as prominent in the mix as the backing vocals are.

Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Perhaps Awake is an anomaly, but I only noticed Lie and Scarred as being songs that had JP playing rhythm underneath the solos. If that's any indicator of the rest of the catalog, that's not "most of the time".

[425]

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound).

Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.

I would generally prefer that guitarists not do this, but it does not bother me as much for guitarists as it does for singers. Why? I think there is a perfectly logical reason. A singer's voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not. One could easily imagine there simply being an additional guitarist playing the additional part. But if I hear James LaBrie singing one part and James LaBrie singing another part over him, the impossibility of that is staring me right in the face, because there is not another person whose voice sounds that way.

[PetFish]

A singer's voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

       

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

Get 100 of the all-time greats to play "Jingle Bells" note-for-note but with their setup and each one will be immediately identifiable, just as 100 singers singing it will also be.