Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Max Kuehnau]

I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy.

ah so the promo copy was shortened then?

[bosk1]

I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy.

ah so the promo copy was shortened then?

Yes.  As I remember, the promo was along the lines of:
-Descent of the NOMACS
-Dystopian Overture
-The Gift of Music
-Lord Nefaryus
-A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come (as a single track)
-Chosen
-Moment of Betrayal
-Our New World

There might have been another song or two, but that is mainly it (it was digital, and I no longer have the download, so I don't remember for certain).

[hefdaddy42]

I normally begin Disc 2 with Moment of Betrayal, and only listen to 2285 Entr'acte as a coda following Astonishing.  Not saying that is the best way, but it works for me.

[bosk1]

Really?  That's interesting because, to me, Moment of Betrayal loses a LOT when not preceded by 2285 Entr'acte.  It just has so much more power when following the instrumental.

[hefdaddy42]

Really?  That's interesting because, to me, Moment of Betrayal loses a LOT when not preceded by 2285 Entr'acte.  It just has so much more power when following the instrumental.

*shrugs* I don't feel like that lack of power is a bad thing.  Like I said, it works for me.

Just listen to Astonishing and 2285 Entr'acte back to back.

[MirrorMask]

In my abridged version I omitted the entirety of the Entr'Acte and the intro of Moment of Betrayal, so when you finish The Road to Revolution, it immediately kicks off again with the "real" beginning of Betrayal.

[NoFred]

I never took the time to make an abridged copy, but found it a much easier listen on random - I never got into the story or musical themes and going random keeps things interesting for the long runtime.

I really like the progression of nomac tracks though, I would keep a couple of them in an abridged version.

Would also love to see this brought back as a longer medley in their sets.

[hunnus2000]

I am glad to see TA getting some love! I loved from the git-go and still come back to listening quite frequently but I have a 30 minute commute so I can listen to it as it's meant to be listened. I grew up in the days of Jesus Christ Superstar, Paint your Wagon and Godspell so I knew this album was going require a different approach than their typical  album.

[Northern Lion]

I am glad to see TA getting some love! I loved from the git-go and still come back to listening quite frequently but I have a 30 minute commute so I can listen to it as it's meant to be listened. I grew up in the days of Jesus Christ Superstar, Paint your Wagon and Godspell so I knew this album was going require a different approach than their typical  album.

Mee too, I love that album  .  It's very musically diverse and melodically rich.  My hope is that in 10 years, it will be looked back on with fondness by most fans.

[Ben_Jamin]

Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.

Thats the thing. The Astonishing is meant to be listened to as a broadway/musical soundtrack. Everytime I listen to it I can picture the scenery, the characters acting their roles. Like the Final Battle between Arhys and Daryus, and in Hymn Of A Thousand voices the crowd slowly gathering to Heavens Cove after hearing Gabriels Scream.

Thats why I enjoy The Astonishing and hope one day to get a musical version of it. Even if it's Ayreon style.

[gzarruk]

Thats why I enjoy The Astonishing and hope one day to get a musical version of it. Even if it's Ayreon style.

That'd be really cool!

[PetFish]

What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

[Ben_Jamin]

What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.

[hunnus2000]

What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.

Did you see the remake of Jesus Christ Super last year with John Legend? It had a live band on stage. Is that what your talking about?

BTW, that was a bad ass live TV opera and I couldn't help but think that it should be Dream Theater playing that music with JLB as the part of Jesus.

[Ben_Jamin]

What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.

Did you see the remake of Jesus Christ Super last year with John Legend? It had a live band on stage. Is that what your talking about?

BTW, that was a bad ass live TV opera and I couldn't help but think that it should be Dream Theater playing that music with JLB as the part of Jesus.

Yes I have seen it. It was great.

Im talking more how The Theater Equation was executed.

But It would be awesome if they could do a full production one off live show of the album maybe a couple nights.

[Max Kuehnau]

Bringing in both James, Jordan and MM were the best decisions the band has made and they can consider themselves to be very lucky having these 3 people being a part of their ranks.

[Volante99]

Bringing in both James, Jordan and MM were the best decisions the band has made and they can consider themselves to be very lucky having these 3 people being a part of their ranks.

Is this controversial? I have my qualms with Mangini and the direction they've taken the past 3 albums but I'd say I'm in the small majority with that on this forum, and it's hard to argue that band isn't in a happier place the past few years.

[TAC]

Right. That's not controversial at all.

[KevShmev]

I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well. 

[Cool Chris]

It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.

[MoraWintersoul]

It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.

It's worth saying that we were pretty close to getting straight to JR instead. I wonder how different the following releases would have been - not just the EP and FII, but Scenes too, seeing how Derek was in the room jamming with them and working on the demo that became Scenes.

[gmillerdrake]

I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well.

'Great'  is a tad generous. He was serviceable. He Played his role and filled a gap but were he 'great' they'd not have still had that bug to go and get Jordan the second they knew he'd say yes. There's nothing he provided that was awe inspiring....his parts always fit with the sound and did their job but there's nothing that jumps out to me that could categorize his time with the band as 'great'.

In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

[hunnus2000]

There was a thread here sometime ago about your least favorite 3 album stretch. I'll start off by saying that I love these 3 albums and think each is a fantastic piece of work by the band and I'm not saying this just to be controversial.

So here it goes..........

















My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................



































I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)

[MoraWintersoul]

when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find.

Maybe it's because I listened to more Kevin Moore bootlegs so I had the opportunity to catch more mistakes, but out of the two, I think Kevin is sloppier! Derek does get loosey goosey with the solos, but out of the two, I think Kev is the one that made more mistakes.

My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)

Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?

[JayOctavarium]

My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)

Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?

Woah...

[Setlist Scotty]

My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)

Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?

I think there's a few things you can ASSume from his comment. He prefers WDaDU to FII and thinks that SFaM and SDoIT are better than IaW and Awake. And either he really really hates FII or he thinks the majority of the rest of DT's catalog is better than IaW and Awake. How far am I off hunnus?

[hunnus2000]

OK - here's the dealeo ya'll:

I LOVE all three pieces of work! I&W is  classic and I admire a progressive metal band using a saxophone in their defining album. But Awake seemed "forced" to me, so much so, that fans thought they replaced the singer. I think it was MP who said that you have your entire life to record your first album but after that.....(I can't remember what the rest of the quote was).

FII - I think that DS is an awesome keyboardist but he has even said that he thinks of himself as a guitarist on keyboards so I don't think that's what JP or even MP had in mind for the long term vision of DT. I think they wanted more of the soundscape that JR could provide. Besides, I always thought that DS was a pretty cocky individual and I think he is still butt hurt from being let go from the band and still shows it.

Regardless of my personal feelings, I think Awake and FII fall short of what I think of the very definition of what Dream Theater is as a band.

[KevShmev]

It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.

I don't think each replacement was necessarily an upgrade, just that they did a great job each time.

I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well.

'Great'  is a tad generous. He was serviceable. He Played his role and filled a gap but were he 'great' they'd not have still had that bug to go and get Jordan the second they knew he'd say yes. There's nothing he provided that was awe inspiring....his parts always fit with the sound and did their job but there's nothing that jumps out to me that could categorize his time with the band as 'great'.

In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 

I was thinking more along the lines of studio work rather than live, but in the studio, I do think he did a great job overall.  His work on A Change of Seasons is tremendous, the lead keyboard line that kicks off Lines in the Sand is still one of the most awesome things in the entire DT catalogue, and Trial of Tears might contain the best keyboard solo in a DT song.  Regardless of what a knob he has been the last few years , I will give him his due for his work with the band.

[TAC]

Derek was always a step down for the band.

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 

I think this sums it up pretty well, but just to add to it: DS had a musical background that was a bit more rock n roll than what they were looking for. They wanted someone who had more of a prog background like KM had. So the musical style or direction did play a part. But then in terms of personality, in comparison to the rest of the guys, DS was the odd man out too, being single as opposed to being married like the rest of the guys. So when JR was willing to join, they made the move, not only because he was their first original choice to replace KM, but also because he fit better into what they envisioned for their keyboardist and in general as a member of DT.

Derek was always a step down for the band.

I disagree - I think he brought something new and fresh to the band when he joined. In listening back to the old bootlegs from his time with the band, I prefer his stand-alone solos to those of JR's as well as his lead sound. And I like that he had more of a guitarist's mindset - it was definitely something different from what came before. It's a shame that he never got to do a second album with the band - it would be interesting to see what would have developed, be it SFaM or something else.

[TAC]

I have a hard time listening to boots from the FII Era. Just feels like DT's gawky pre teen years.

[Setlist Scotty]

I have a hard time listening to boots from the FII Era. Just feels like DT's gawky pre teen years.

I'm just the opposite. I love that the setlists were varied to a degree and that there was a looseness and spontaneity where it seemed like anything could happen (and many times did) that was lacking in later tours, even while MP was in the band and certainly in comparison to the band's performances since he left.

[bosk1]

OK - here's the dealeo ya'll:

I LOVE all three pieces of work! I&W is  classic and I admire a progressive metal band using a saxophone in their defining album. But Awake seemed "forced" to me, so much so, that fans thought they replaced the singer. I think it was MP who said that you have your entire life to record your first album but after that.....(I can't remember what the rest of the quote was).

FII - I think that DS is an awesome keyboardist but he has even said that he thinks of himself as a guitarist on keyboards so I don't think that's what JP or even MP had in mind for the long term vision of DT. I think they wanted more of the soundscape that JR could provide. Besides, I always thought that DS was a pretty cocky individual and I think he is still butt hurt from being let go from the band and still shows it.

Regardless of my personal feelings, I think Awake and FII fall short of what I think of the very definition of what Dream Theater is as a band.

I get where you are coming from, even if I don't agree.  But for me, it's so hard to pick a "least favorite 3-album run" anyway.  Even though they have occasionally done some things I didn't much care for, I don't dislike any albums.  And even the albums that I don't like as much are usually bookended by albums I like a lot.  I guess if I had to choose, the run for me would be TOT > Octavarium > SC.
-TOT is one of my least favorite whole albums, even though it does have some things I really like.  But the two albums that preceded it are my #1 and #2, so I can't go that direction. 
-8VM has some fantastic moments.  But it does have a couple of weaker tracks that I don't much care for, and has some "average" (for DT) ones as well. 
-SC is such a fun listen for the stuff that I like.  But it also has a couple of my least favorite tracks ever.  Much like I&W, although it has some fantastic highs, I consider it a very inconsistent album, with about 1/3 fantastic, 1/3 good, and 1/3 not good. 

Barring that set of 3, I guess I would have to go with WDADU > I&W > Awake. 
-WDADU is my least favorite DT album.  I am very thankful for WADARU, because it got me to listen to and learn to appreciate some of what is going on on that album.  But as far as the original album and that particular recording of those songs, I don't even listen to it.
-I&W...see above.  This was the album that got me into DT, and it has some truly fantastic, classic moments.  But there are consistency issues.
-Awake:  Great album.  But a few songs I don't care for.  And if I'm looking for reasons to put this as part of a "least favorite albums" run...let's just say that when I heard Kevin Moore was no longer in the band, I was REALLY glad. 

[The Walrus]

I am very thankful for WADARU

When A Derek And Rudess Unite?

[KevShmev]

I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 

I think this sums it up pretty well, but just to add to it: DS had a musical background that was a bit more rock n roll than what they were looking for. They wanted someone who had more of a prog background like KM had. So the musical style or direction did play a part. But then in terms of personality, in comparison to the rest of the guys, DS was the odd man out too, being single as opposed to being married like the rest of the guys. So when JR was willing to join, they made the move, not only because he was their first original choice to replace KM, but also because he fit better into what they envisioned for their keyboardist and in general as a member of DT.

While that is true, I don't think Derek would have gotten the axe had Rudess not agreed to join.  Then again, the band was viewing their next album (that would become Scenes from a Memory) as make or break, so who knows if they would have felt the need to shake things up on what could have been their swan song.