Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Revenge319]

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive.

W H A T

[IDontNotDoThings]

I didn't like it

[Revenge319]

I didn't like it

Ah, OK.

[Nic35]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

[bosk1]

Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive.

Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things. 

[Revenge319]

Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things.

Wow! All of a sudden, I love wars in the middle east, deaths of countless puppies, and climate change

[gzarruk]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

[Lethean]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk 

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.

For example, the "all the finest wines improve with age" line.  It is a direct quote from an ad campaign from the '80s.  I forget which wine brand it was, but it was one of the first "wine in the box" wines that you could buy.  I remember the commercials trying to look serious and sophisticated, and using that line, and it being unintentionally humorous because NOBODY took it seriously with relation to that wine.  It was even indirectly made fun of in a couple of movies in years following, where people would refer to wine by the box as being decidedly unsophisticated, but people who would actually drink that kind of wine not being sophisticated enough to realize that.  Anyhow, that's sort of the context for that quote in TCOT.  The whole thing about the Count is that he and his family are living out of time, and the Count is only slightly aware of the fact that they would be considered odd and out of time by others on the outside.  So that line fits with JP's portrayal of the character as unwittingly anachronistic.  That's why that is such a GREAT line if you happen to know that back story.  It is definitely an "I see what you did there, John--that was pretty clever" moment.  But if you have no idea because you are too young to have seen those commercials and to know that, it doesn't come across as clever--it comes across as silly and out of place.

That's interesting.  Has JP ever confirmed that?  Not that it really even necessarily matters - if you, me, or anyone interpret lyrics a certain way or connect them to something, I think that's totally valid regardless of the writer's intent.  But I'd still be curious.  Either way, I don't know if that will "save" the lyrics for me - some of those lines just see cringey either way, especially when you put them with the chorus and the character's supposed to be scared of this person... But I do find this interesting and something to think about.

[MinistroRaven]

https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

  I don't understand.  What is the for?

Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.

I am OK with MM improv. I think he does a great job doing his own thing, what I don;t like it;s all the comments that MP is better or that MM is better and on and on and on

[hefdaddy42]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

It's certainly better than BC&SL.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

From the time I bought it and still to this day, I think that BC&SL is a great, solid Dream Theater album, in my opinion the last great album of the band..SDOIT was also great as I was wondering what the band's direction is going to be after the massive success of SFAM..I bought TOT, 8V, then SC..but honestly they didn't gave me a solid from start to finish experience that say SDOIT gave me..I liked most of the songs though..so yeah BC&SL for me ranks very high in my list. But the cover album..now that's controversial! 

[cramx3]

BC&SL is high on my list as well.  But some of the newer released may have bumped it down.  I had it as high as #4 favorite album by DT.  It really resonated with me that summer.  I hardly listen to it these days, but it's still a really strong album that's only fault is being only 6 songs.  If you didn't like one or two of those songs, the album ends up being kind of a downer.

[Northern Lion]

Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive.

Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things.

Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

BC&SL is pretty good, there are a few songs I don't care for: The Shattered Fortress, The Best of Times.  But It also contains some of my favorite songs: The Count of Tuscany, A Rite of Passage.

[pg1067]

Eve is great. I remember those early shows where they would play it, and I thought it was awesome.

Yup.  At some point in '93 or '94, I acquired a tape copy of the 3/4/93 NYC show.  It was my introduction to Eve and ACOS (although they played the former at the 6/3/93 show I attended, I can't say I have any recollection of it).

The BC&SL covers disc is cool, but I wouldn't even say that it's better than the album proper (even though I only really ever listen to Wither, TCOT and, sometimes, TSF).  The covers of Stargazer (probably my favorite Dio track ever (Rainbow, Sabbath or eponymous band)) and To Tame a Land (my favorite Maiden track ever) are cool, but Dio's voice and delivery style are virtually impossible to cover well (esp. with all of the "improv" stuff at the end of Stargazer), and Dickinson is only slightly easier in that regard.  The cover of Odyssey is also very cool.  The rest of the covers are just meh (mostly because I'm not really familiar with or a fan of the originals).

Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

I think I would pretty easily sleep through it and probably would find it better for falling asleep to.  Judas Priest's Painkiller would be a better morning alarm song!

[cramx3]

Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

When I was younger I had a CD player alarm, so I thought it would be a great idea to wake up to a song I really enjoy.  Not long after, I really hated that song that I had loved.  It always reminded me of the struggle of waking up if I heard it outside of my alarm.  I've never done something similar since to not ruin music I enjoy.

[ReaPsTA]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.

[hefdaddy42]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.

You're exactly right.

[cramx3]

The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.

Those songs were released differently right?  If I recall the IM cover was on a cover album from like ~6 months before BC&SL was released and then they slowly trickled out the other cover songs before the album.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if it was mastered differently due to the timing of everything.

[Max Kuehnau]

another one from me: AWE might have sounded better if the ending that DT use live as of now had been the ending for the studio version as well. (Not that there is anything wrong with AWE itself though, I like it quite a bit)

[Northern Lion]

Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

I think I would pretty easily sleep through it and probably would find it better for falling asleep to.  Judas Priest's Painkiller would be a better morning alarm song!

I find the song really gentle to wake up to.  I don't like jarring alarms, they just put me in a bad mood in the morning. Also my wife and I get up at different times and I don't want to wake her to much when I get up.

When I was younger I had a CD player alarm, so I thought it would be a great idea to wake up to a song I really enjoy.  Not long after, I really hated that song that I had loved.  It always reminded me of the struggle of waking up if I heard it outside of my alarm.  I've never done something similar since to not ruin music I enjoy.

This also the reason I use Eve instead of a different song.  It is gentle but I don't really care for it so I only use it as my alarm and don't listen to it at any other time.  At first when I became a DT fan I used Trial of Tears, but quickly stopped precisely for the reason you mentioned.  It's one of my favorite songs and I just didn't want to think of waking up every time I listened to it.

[Northern Lion]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

[gmillerdrake]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

Personally because it's not really a DT song IMO. If I remember correctly  JP, MP and JR wrote it in a matter of a few days at the behest of the 'God of War' developers request..... JMX wasn't involved in writing at all and obviously JLB wasn't. When listening to it while sure....it has some chunk and some cool moments but all in all it's pretty generic IMO. I just personally don't hear it or treat it as a 'real' DT song.

[Chino]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I've still never listened to it.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.

[MirrorMask]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I've still never listened to it.

I heard it once for sure. Maybe twice. I don't think I'm gonna bother with the third.

[gzarruk]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I'm with you. Not my favorite, but definitely not as bad as some people here say it is.

[cramx3]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I'm with you. Not my favorite, but definitely not as bad as some people here say it is.

Same, I've always enjoyed it for what it is (I'd call it a DT track still, but it was definitely made for a purpose not being a DT album), but mainly:

Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.

this seems to be the biggest reason to not like it and it's legit

[Northern Lion]

Thanks everyone, that helps me understand quite a bit better why most don't like it.  But I'm also glad I'm not alone in liking the song.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Actually I just listened for the first time Raw Dog from reading you guys..it's a cool little piece..judging how versatile the band is (especially JP&JR) they did a pretty good job considering the context of the song! Back in the day JP wrote also some music for a Sega Saturn game called Necronomicon..I really like that more though cause it's more catchy!

[pg1067]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

Honestly, I haven't listened to it in I don't know how long and probably only ever listened to it once or twice.  I recall not liking it (hence not going back to it, which is made more difficult given that it's a video game song so I have to listen to it via some sort of streaming service), and my best recollection is that it was lot of very generic, very heavy low-B string kind of stuff (in the vein of Pantera, whom I don't like in the slightest).  I could be completely wrong about that, and I'll maybe give it another listen today.

[Dublagent66]

Any comparison to Pantera isn't a bad thing at all.  Dimebag wasn't only an awesome guitar player.  He contributed much more to the art of playing guitar in much the same way as JP.

[Setlist Scotty]

Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.

this seems to be the biggest reason to not like it and it's legit

I'm glad Northern Lion brought Raw Dog back into the conversation, because after seeing these comments above, it needs to be pointed out that this thinking is not correct. How so?

Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

If what you guys are saying is true - that these individual parts weren't good enough, then the same thinking should apply to what ended up becoming I Walk Beside You (mostly written during the ToT sessions) and the riff found at 1:44 in The Glass Prison - originally written during soundcheck on Touring Into Infinity and previously they tried to use it for what became SFaM. You could also say the same thing for the opening bass riff found in S2N, which would've ended up on the cutting room floor if the band didn't decide to push through and write a song specifically using that riff, after having pushed it aside numerous times during the writing sessions for d/t.

So whether you like the song or not, those individual parts of Raw Dog *were* good enough for earlier songs - it was just that they couldn't find the place to use them during the writing sessions for BCaSL.

Which actually brings up a point that I wish would change - the mentality to write just enough for an album. If they have all those free-flowing ideas happening, why not follow their muse and see where it takes them, especially given the short time that it seems to take them to whip out an album's worth of music? That way, they could pick and choose what they feel are the best songs and/or the right vibe for the final album instead of merely going with whatever they came up with this time around. They were forced to do it for FII, and some of their better songs were written because they weren't permitted to go into the studio as soon as they had an album's worth of material. It would also give them material to use as B-sides, soundtracks, etc.

[MirrorMask]

Maybe it's just a wrong impression, but I think that a little bit of reason could be attributed to LTE. They realized that, especially with Jordan, they could come up with amazing music in a short amount of time, and so they thought that could always be the case. So they wrote, wrote, wrote, we have 78 minutes, ok it's a wrap.

Maybe it has nothing to do with it, and there were other factors such as families and side projects without the luxury of having "nothing else to do" but jam and write music like in the early days. But I think LTE, aside Jordan himself, left also the legacy in the latter part of Portnoy's tenure of concepts such as "we can write an album in few weeks" and "we need a solo section? ok, let's activate the LTE mode", with whatever that came up from a jam ending up as being the (disjointed) solo section of a song.

[bosk1]

I dunno.  I just kind of feel like it's none of our business.  They write in the way they feel works best for them.  Period.  We aren't part of the process and don't really have any insight beyond whatever opinion we happen to pull out of thin air.  That isn't really worth a whole lot. 

[gzarruk]

I think part of my initial enjoyment for Raw Dog comes from not actually knowing all the background info at first, I just knew they had an instrumental song on the God of War soundtrack and it was good, so no more questions asked from me. Maybe if some of you didn't know it was "discarded" material, you would enjoy it more. Just my two cents.