Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[IDontNotDoThings]

I don't say it much, because I'm not big on bagging on people and their taste, but since it's the thread for it, I scratch my head at the deference paid to JM's lyrics.

You were outdone by someone previously on the thread (I'm sorry I can't remember who it was!) saying he sounds like a Facebook quote most of the time

That was Kotowboy

[Stadler]

In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee! 

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid). 

[Stadler]

But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows.

Is it the high quality that turns you off? 

HAHAHA, that got a laugh out loud.

And for the record, I did NOT read your post before I wrote what I did about song lengths.  I wasn't referring to you, but something else in the past.

[HOF]

JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.

Metropolis part I might be nonsensical, but I don't get why you say that about IF. It's fairly well documented that IF is JP's commentary on the breakdown of friendship, largely driven by the breakdown of his friendship with KM who was a childhood friend.

I actually really like the wordplay and imagery in Innocence Faded, and I have heard that explanation before, but it's very Jon Andersonish in places:

Animation
Breathes a cloudless mind
Fascination
Leaves the doubting blind
Until the circle breaks
And wisdom lies ahead
The faithful live awake
The rest remain misled

Or:

Beyond the circle's edge
We're driven by her blessings
Forever hesitating
Caught beneath the wheel

Those are nice lines, but even knowing what the song is about they are a bit of a head scratcher.

[WilliamMunny]

As far as lyricists go, for my money, James is by far the most consistent.

That being said, his output is much less than MP and JP.

For MP and JP, they each have cringe-worthy moments, and each have written some gems ('Lines in the Sand' immediately comes to mind as a watershed, perfect lyrical moment).

JM...what can I say? I mean, I dig 'Learning to Live' and 'Breaking all Illusions,' but if I were ranking DT songs in terms of lyrics (which seems kinda silly, I know, but go with me here), I'm not sure JM makes it into my top-10.

James—with songs like 'Disappear,' 'Blind Faith,' 'At Wits End'—is definitely going to be up there at the top with a disproportionate amount of entires.

[hefdaddy42]

None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

[WilliamMunny]

None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.

[hefdaddy42]

None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.

For me, the answer is obvious.  His voice is terrible.  Fantastic songwriter, horrible singer.  I can't listen to him. 

[HOF]

As far as James' lyrics, I think Anna Lee has a really strong lyric. Speak To Me is another.

I'm not sure his solo albums bear James out to be an especially great lyricist, but I do wonder if the overall songwriting in the band would have been strengthened by the singer being more involved with the lyrics and melodies from the start of the writing process. I know James has had some input in terms of if there was something he didn't feel comfortable singing, and he probably gets to do some work on the melodies themselves, but the band always seemed to keep him at arm's length when it came to the writing.

[King Postwhore]

None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.

For me, the answer is obvious.  His voice is terrible.  Fantastic songwriter, horrible singer.  I can't listen to him.

Hef, same for me as well. 

[TAC]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

[gzarruk]

I listened to TBOT again the other day and I think the only interesting parts in the song are the intro and THAT solo
Other than that, the rest feels like it's too long and just not too enjoyable. The lyrics don't help either.

Musically, it's a great song. I think the lyrics suffer at the end, starting from "The fleeting wings of time..." because of the repetitive use of the "ay" rhyme. It's used 11 times just in that part alone. I don't mind the lyrics before that section because they're really interpersonal for MP, and describe those cherished memories he has of the times he spent with his father.

That's the part where I go "the song just completely died" and stays dead until the solo

[hefdaddy42]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

https://variety.com/lists/bob-dylan-80-best-greatest-cover-songs/the-byrds-mr-tambourine-man-best-bob-dylan-covers/

[RodrigoAltaf]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

Like a Rolling Stone maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYokc3VBC4

[TAC]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

https://variety.com/lists/bob-dylan-80-best-greatest-cover-songs/the-byrds-mr-tambourine-man-best-bob-dylan-covers/

Perfect, Hef. I'll check it out!

[HOF]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

All Along the Watchtower? Not written for other artists but probably more famous for Hendrix's version.

[Enigmachine]

To be honest, I'm not really sure the style of lyric writing that Dylan has would be that well suited to the kind of music that DT generally make.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee! 

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid).

I think both of these things have to do with a preference for what generally comes with both JM's lyrics and longer songs. For the former, it'd be a more poetic angle with generally much more abstract and colourful wordplay than what JP tends to use. As for longer songs, it usually makes for a structure with more twists and turns as well as things like further development of musical themes and a wider dynamic contrast. I can definitely understand the excitement for both aspects, even if I'm not always necessarily in the mood for them.

[ReaPsTA]

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

[Dedalus]

In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee! 

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid).

Yeah....but especially around here people can be effusive about anything. News comes out of Neal Morse's new collaboration with Mike Portnoy and people celebrate as if they've been waiting 10 years since the last one (and as if in 2022 there won't be another one). 

But I insist... In general, even here JM is not regarded as a master lyricist. People just think he's a better lyricist than the average for DT. And they are absolutely correct. 

[DoctorAction]

JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.

Metropolis part I might be nonsensical, but I don't get why you say that about IF. It's fairly well documented that IF is JP's commentary on the breakdown of friendship, largely driven by the breakdown of his friendship with KM who was a childhood friend.

I actually really like the wordplay and imagery in Innocence Faded, and I have heard that explanation before, but it's very Jon Andersonish in places:

Animation
Breathes a cloudless mind
Fascination
Leaves the doubting blind
Until the circle breaks
And wisdom lies ahead
The faithful live awake
The rest remain misled

Or:

Beyond the circle's edge
We're driven by her blessings
Forever hesitating
Caught beneath the wheel

Those are nice lines, but even knowing what the song is about they are a bit of a head scratcher.

I have some idea on some of those lines. Abstract is fine for me.

[hefdaddy42]

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

[bosk1]

In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee! 

Exactly.  (except that I have had my first coffee)  It's really kinda silly.

As for DT lyricists, they have all written some lyrics that I think are incredible, and some that are less so. It is pretty rare to find lyrics in DT that I actively dislike.

Since it was mentioned, I think JP is an interesting case when it comes to lyrics.  I don't see any "decline" at all in terms of "quality" (whatever that means).  But what I think can be observed quite accurately is a decline in writing in a more poetic, abstract style and moving toward a more literal, narrative style.  He has always done both.  But there is less of the former and more of the latter since the early albums.  And I think he did the former very well--at least, if you like a style that evokes images and emotions, even if the overall meaning may at times be completely obfuscated by the poetic imagery (assuming an overall meaning even exists). 

I have never been a fan overall of KevMo's lyrics.  But that said, in terms of being able to turn a phrase, he has lyrical lines that I think are brilliant.  But some of his early contributions lack maturity from a lyric-writing perspective.  And what I mean by that is, he wrote things that may read as being pretty awesome on paper, but are clearly not written with a view to how they will sound when sung by a lyricist.  LFAGA and OAMOT are poster children for this.  Some great lines in there, but way too many words for a singer to sing, and clearly not written with an ear to how they would sound as a vocal performance in the context of a song. 

JM is hit and miss.  He has some I really enjoy (LTL, S2N).  Others that leave me cold (BAI).

Same with Portnoy, although his style is obviously VERY different than JM's.  His contributions on Octavarium (the song) are pretty fantastic.  The Mirror and The Glass Prison are also a standouts for me.  Most of his lyrics are just "right down the middle" for me in that they are very effective, but do not stand out as being OVERLY outstanding or poor.  They serve the purpose of the song, and that's it (which is what most good lyrics do).  And I guess that is true of most of the DT lyricists a lot of the time:  as a whole, they rarely write lyrics that leap out as amazing, but they are almost always very effective for conveying what a given song is trying to convey.

But James is quite often an exception to the above.  His contributions, especially on this last album, quite often make me sit up and take notice as being truly exceptional.  I commented before that, from a lyrical perspective, James is the MVP of D/T, and he is to be applauded for writing some incredible lyrics on that album.

I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small.  But just as an observation, I don't care for the lyrics to Afterlife at all.  Derek's and Mangini's contributions are what I would consider "effective" as I described above. 

[ReaPsTA]

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

From that standpoint they are indeed terrible. You can hear JLB running out of breath when he sings them.

I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small. 

Sherinian? What?

[HOF]

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

Light Fuse and Get Away is kind of clunky too from that standpoint.

[Stadler]

Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

All Along The Watchtower (Jimi Hendrix/U2/Dave Matthews)
Knockin' On Heaven's Door (Guns 'n' Roses; the original does not have the "dow-er-ow-er-ow-er" affectation. )
Maggie's Farm (Rage Against The Machine)

[bosk1]

But I insist... In general, even here JM is not regarded as a master lyricist. People just think he's a better lyricist than the average for DT. And they are absolutely correct. 

As far as the "correctness" of that opinion, I firmly disagree.  I would say that, as a whole, his lyrics are on par with "average DT." 

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

Exactly.  Which is what I posted above.  And some of his lyrics, especially on Awake, lack an emotional maturity that makes them easy for me to connect with.  They strike me as something written by an angst-ridden teen in his bedroom who thinks of himself as a self-proclaimed lyrical prodigy who is compelled to write about his undying "pain and suffering," but who has never really known true pain and suffering beyond what an angst-ridden teen in a first-world country might feel.  And that's fine.  There's nothing wrong with that.  But I also personally find it to be shallow, unappealing, and something that I personally don't connect with.

[bosk1]

KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?

The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

From that standpoint they are indeed terrible. You can hear JLB running out of breath when he sings them.

I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small. 

Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

[HOF]

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

As far as I know the lyrics are all James, but I think the music was Derek's.

[ReaPsTA]

(I already typed this before HOF posted and refuse to let it go to waste. I am the sunk cost fallacy)

Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

I think from a songwriting perspective he put a lot of lift into it, but I remember not anything about the lyrics. I know he did sing backup vocals on the album.

But my DT historian abilities have atrophied.

[Dublagent66]

What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  )
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.

Sorry, but there are no skippable songs on Awake.  Just sayin'...

No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

what

No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Tim, no one can hear you unless you use CAPS.   

[bosk1]

(I already typed this before HOF posted and refuse to let it go to waste. I am the sunk cost fallacy)

Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

I think from a songwriting perspective he put a lot of lift into it, but I remember not anything about the lyrics. I know he did sing backup vocals on the album.

But my DT historian abilities have atrophied.

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

As far as I know the lyrics are all James, but I think the music was Derek's.

OK, you guys are probably right.  It's been awhile since I looked at that, and I was just going off my (imperfect and clouded) memory.

[HOF]

Myung did have some outstanding lyrics before he was banned from writing them, which I think added to the legend a bit. But you would get one really great lyric for him per album before that which was kind of perfect (quality over quantity and all that). Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, and Trial of Tears are outstanding. Fatal Tragedy is largely just story/narrative and not that interesting, but the chorus is cool. I haven't heard any of his recent lyrics though.

[bosk1]

Well, he wasn't "banned."  If anything, it was  "self-banning" because his style of just writing freeform and expecting others to make them work in a song didn't work with how JP and MP wanted to do things at the time.  He could very well have submitted lyrics with vocal melodies if he chose to.

As far as "recent" ones, you haven't heard BAI or S2N?

[HOF]

Well, he wasn't "banned."  If anything, it was  "self-banning" because his style of just writing freeform and expecting others to make them work in a song didn't work with how JP and MP wanted to do things at the time.  He could very well have submitted lyrics with vocal melodies if he chose to.

As far as "recent" ones, you haven't heard BAI or S2N?

It's possible I have, but I haven't given more than a casual listen to a DT album since Octavarium. Which albums are those on?

[bosk1]

Breaking All Illusions is on A Dramatic Turn of Events, and S2N is on Distance Over Time.  Surprised you haven't listened to anything since 8VM.  The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.