Dream Theater self titled album discussion - [SPOILER FREE DISCUSSION ONLY]

[aprilethereal]

ADTOE was still too heavy for me. 

There are many ways I could describe ADTOE, but "heavy" is not one of them (with the exception of BITS)

[YtseJamittaja]

ADTOE = Heavy ??

No way!!

[TheGreatPretender]

There are many ways I could describe ADTOE, but "heavy" is not one of them (with the exception of BITS)

BMUBMD was pretty heavy too.

[ariich]

There are many ways I could describe ADTOE, but "heavy" is not one of them (with the exception of BITS)

BMUBMD was pretty heavy too.

Yeah but those two songs are about it.

Then again, lots of people call BC&SL "heavy", which I also don't understand. As far as I'm concerned it's only TSF and most of ANTR that are heavy. It probably depends on what other music you listen to though.

[wasteland]

Clearly. The only two DT albums I would call heavy are TOT and the two songs you mentioned off BCSL. As for the other albums, two occasionally heavy songs don't make an album heavy by itself (TGP for SDOIT, BITS for ADTOE).

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah but those two songs are about it.

Then again, lots of people call BC&SL "heavy", which I also don't understand. As far as I'm concerned it's only TSF and most of ANTR that are heavy. It probably depends on what other music you listen to though.

Well, maybe they're mainly referring to what extremes those particular albums go. Although if that's the case, then Awake, SDOIT and 8VM should be considered heavy too.

Clearly. The only two DT albums I would call heavy are TOT and the two songs you mentioned off BCSL. As for the other albums, two occasionally heavy songs don't make an album heavy by itself (TGP for SDOIT, BITS for ADTOE).

I'd say that Systematic Chaos is all around pretty heavy.

[wasteland]

I'm not so sure. Mostly because I haven't listened to a song off that album in almost a year (the last being Prophets Of War). But even then, TDEN isn't that heavy, and neither is ITPOE2, if I remember correctly 

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not so sure. Mostly because I haven't listened to a song off that album in almost a year (the last being Prophets Of War). But even then, TDEN isn't that heavy, and neither is ITPOE2, if I remember correctly 

You're not remembering correctly.
TDEN is probably DT's heaviest song, and the whole album has a heavier edge. I'd say it's easily DT's second heaviest album, behind TOT.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not so sure. Mostly because I haven't listened to a song off that album in almost a year (the last being Prophets Of War). But even then, TDEN isn't that heavy, and neither is ITPOE2, if I remember correctly 

I'd say TDEN is every bit as heavy as ANTR, if not heavier (what with lacking a soft section). ITPOE2 starts out more quietly, but it does build into an awesome metal epic. At the very least ITPOE2 is every bit as heavy as anything Iron Maiden may have ever done. It may not be thrashed out, but it's definitely on the Metal side of things.

EDIT: Best solution to this: Listen to this awesome album again.

[ariich]

I'm not so sure. Mostly because I haven't listened to a song off that album in almost a year (the last being Prophets Of War). But even then, TDEN isn't that heavy, and neither is ITPOE2, if I remember correctly 

You're not remembering correctly.
TDEN is probably DT's heaviest song, and the whole album has a heavier edge. I'd say it's easily DT's second heaviest album, behind TOT.

Probably second overall yeah, but it's still not that heavy really. ITPOE has some heavy bits in but then DT have always done songs with heavy bits in, Forsaken is not heavy, POW is not heavy, Repentance is not heavy, TMOLS is not heavy. Basically it's just CM and TDEN and some bits of ITPOE.

EDIT: TGP, out of interest, do you think of Iron Maiden as heavy?

[robwebster]

dunno if anyone've already posted it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vS5vUJ8X_A

Yeah, I think it's been posted. Pretty good interview.

It sounds like he's insinuating that DT is trying to move back to where they started and be a little bit more sonically diverse and more progressive.  I'd love it if they did that.

ADTOE moves in that direction, but not very much.  I'd say it's only 25% of the way there.  I don't think it's really a ton different from SC and BCSL.  ADTOE was still too heavy for me.  Their release of The Enemy Inside, though, suggests more of the same sound, so I'm not sure what will actually happen.  I'd like to hear a sound more reminiscent of the last 3 tracks of Awake.  I might be in the minority here on that one, though.

Diversity includes heaviness. If they're saying it's diverse, they're saying the rest of the album will be different to The Enemy Inside, not the same.

'Sides which, I'm not sure how similar TEI is to anything the band's previously released, anyway. I've never known them to be quite so psychotically progressive and blisteringly heavy both at the same time. They're usually touted - bafflingly - as antitheses. "Oh, I like their metal side," "I prefer their progressive side." It's not either-or, and this is as clearly as they've ever fused them. Which has the brilliant side-effect of making it more concise and tautly written than any single they've released since... any single they've released! Even Constant Motion slowed down for a bit to switch gears - high octane song, sure, but a little sprawling. TEI, though, is a caffeine hit of every dominant facet of the band's identity, compressed into the size of a shot glass. Never loses pace for a second. Not another DT song quite like it, I'd contend.

[Kotowboy]

The Enemy Inside is really well constructed I think. I'm always surprised when it ends and it's over 6 minutes long.

Black Clouds era Dream Theater might have put another instrumental section on the end of the song and one more chorus or two just to

push it over 8 minutes - for the sake of it.

[serrano]

I was very surprised to see how much they were able to pack into such a "short" song.

[Meatrose]

I was very surprised to see how much they were able to pack into such a "short" song.

I think that this will be said for many of the songs on the album once people get to hear it and digest it.

[theseoafs]

The Enemy Inside is really well constructed I think. I'm always surprised when it ends and it's over 6 minutes long.

Black Clouds era Dream Theater might have put another instrumental section on the end of the song and one more chorus or two just to

push it over 8 minutes - for the sake of it.

I think the instrumental section would have looked a lot different if Black Clouds DT were writing it.  I really like TEI's instrumental section for being progressive and interesting without sacrificing the momentum of the song or going on for too long.  If this were a Black Clouds song, it probably would have been an "....and now for something completely different" instrumental interlude a la AROP.

[Dark Castle]

AROP never really strayed off the path for me, for me, as much as I love ANtR, the last 5 or so minutes were really not needed.

[Kotowboy]

I wonder if they were trying to make BC&SL 6 songs on purpose - because there'a so much material on that album that's all shoved into one song that they could have easily split up into their own songs.

The Beautiful Agony section of Nightmare to Remember for instance.

[Dark Castle]

I wonder if they were trying to make BC&SL 6 songs on purpose - because there'a so much material on that album that's all shoved into one song that they could have easily split up into their own songs.

The Beautiful Agony section of Nightmare to Remember for instance.

That section's probably my favorite out of that song 

[Whatsername]

The Beautiful Agony section of ANTR is easily the best part of that song for me.

[theseoafs]

AROP never really strayed off the path for me

Eh, the instrumental section and the "main" bulk of the song are in completely different tempos and the transitions between them are IMO pretty jarring.  Of course that's not inherently a bad thing but it certainly doesn't do the song any favors. 

Also, this conversation made me listen to AROP for the first time in years.  I forgot how most of the song went.

I wonder if they were trying to make BC&SL 6 songs on purpose - because there'a so much material on that album that's all shoved into one song that they could have easily split up into their own songs.

The Beautiful Agony section of Nightmare to Remember for instance.

The Beautiful Agony section could have been its own song but from a lyrical standpoint I think it makes perfect sense that that section is there.  Of course, all bets are off after that section is over.

[Kotowboy]

Every time I listen to ANTR - I *always* go - fucking hell man ! is this song STILL going ? 

It really doesn't need to be 16 mins.

[theseoafs]

Anyway, if the rest of the album is as structurally sensible as TEI (as opposed to structurally insensible like ANTR), then I'll be a very happy camper.  And the song lengths and the interviews the band's done seem to indicate that they've been focusing a lot on the songs this time around (rather than throwing a bunch of music together to make epics), which is also a very good thing.

[Lowdz]

The Beautiful Agony section of ANTR is easily the best part of that song for me.

For me it works best as part of the song rather than as a standalone song in it's own right. It fits and it works as it is and contrasts well with he rest of the song. It loses impact as just a ballad- just listen to the reworkings of that section on Youtube.

[robwebster]

The Beautiful Agony section of ANTR is easily the best part of that song for me.

For me it works best as part of the song rather than as a standalone song in it's own right. It fits and it works as it is and contrasts well with he rest of the song. It loses impact as just a ballad- just listen to the reworkings of that section on Youtube.

Like hell it does! I'd also question the word "ballad."

So, so, so much better than the album version. I'm sure there's a brilliant edit of A Bullet from the Night waiting to be made, somewhere, too. A Nightmare to Remember, as it appears on the album, is like if they never split Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

[Whatsername]

For me it works best as part of the song rather than as a standalone song in it's own right. It fits and it works as it is and contrasts well with he rest of the song. It loses impact as just a ballad- just listen to the reworkings of that section on Youtube.

I'm not the biggest fan of the entire song, so I find that section to be a breath of fresh air for me. Once it's over I feel very little urge to continue listening.

I just looked up people's takes on this section and actually I find it's not bad. It does lose a bit of it's impact without the beginning of the song, true, but I still find it enjoyable.

[TheGreatPretender]

EDIT: TGP, out of interest, do you think of Iron Maiden as heavy?

Well, in the grand scheme of Metal, I wouldn't say they're particularly heavy, but they're definitely Metal. I actually think that on the Final Frontier tour, MP chose a pretty bad setlist, because his logic was, "Maiden is Metal, so we should play some of our more metal songs to appeal to them and maybe win over some more fans," but some of the songs that DT played that tour were too heavy and too thrashy compared to Iron Maiden. If he wanted to play songs that would have appealed to Maiden fans, he should've replaced Panic Attack with ITPOE Pt. 1, and Constant Motion with... CIAW or something.

But anyway, the point is, no, I don't think Maiden is that heavy, so I guess instead of saying SC is pretty heavy overall, I should've said, it's pretty Metal, overall. Either way, all I meant was that it's the kind of album that would appeal to the Metal crowd, unlike, say, 8V or SDOIT, where there is a combination of metal songs and softer rock songs.

[dparrott]

For me it works best as part of the song rather than as a standalone song in it's own right. It fits and it works as it is and contrasts well with he rest of the song. It loses impact as just a ballad- just listen to the reworkings of that section on Youtube.

I'm not the biggest fan of the entire song, so I find that section to be a breath of fresh air for me. Once it's over I feel very little urge to continue listening.

I just looked up people's takes on this section and actually I find it's not bad. It does lose a bit of it's impact without the beginning of the song, true, but I still find it enjoyable.

To me, beautiful music is beautiful music, regardless what came before it.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think Maiden is that heavy, so I guess instead of saying SC is pretty heavy overall, I should've said, it's pretty Metal, overall. Either way, all I meant was that it's the kind of album that would appeal to the Metal crowd, unlike, say, 8V or SDOIT, where there is a combination of metal songs and softer rock songs.

I agree with you.

[TheGreatPretender]

Every time I listen to ANTR - I *always* go - fucking hell man ! is this song STILL going ? 

It really doesn't need to be 16 mins.

That's because the OUTRO of the song is like, 5 minutes long. I'm pretty sure it's possible to go through the first section, beautiful agony, and "Day after Day" part in 11 minutes, and then conclude it without having to repeat their previous ideas for 5 minutes. But as it is, I enjoy it regardless, when I'm in the mood for it.

[hefdaddy42]

It's definitely the outro that's too long.  WAY too long.

But I don't like "Day after day" either.

Basically, if everything after the "Beautiful Agony" section was a lot shorter, I would like it a lot more.

[?]

A Nightmare to Remember, as it appears on the album, is like if they never split Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Maybe, but TMOLS is a more extreme example and the most poorly structured DT song ever IMO.

[Kotowboy]

I think Black Clouds was everything that was wrong with Dream Theater at that period in one album.

[matte.braso]

Every time I listen to ANTR - I *always* go - fucking hell man ! is this song STILL going ? 

It really doesn't need to be 16 mins.

that's why I love cutting most of recent DT songs...I really appreciate that change of songwriting approach in the last record

[Whatsername]

A Nightmare to Remember, as it appears on the album, is like if they never split Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Maybe, but TMOLS is a more extreme example and the most poorly structured DT song ever IMO.

Am I the only person who likes TMOLS including the wonky instrumental section in the middle?

[wasteland]

No, definitely, there are a lot of people here who agree with you. I'm not one of them.