Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton

[Onno]

Although the following is all speculation since they didn't explain these 'vague motivations', I believe they are possible explanations.
They might have captured the Dalek becaused it was damaged and because they therefore had the opportunity to catch it. When fighting something like Daleks you'd probably jump at any opportunity to get a better understanding of how they work, what they look like inside and what their weak points may be. Those are probably also the reasons they needed someone to go inside. The Doctor and Clara I think agreed to be shrunk down and put inside because a good Dalek was something the Doctor never would have thought possible. It's mainly the Doctor's motivation though, not so much Clara's.

[Kotowboy]

Do you like any of DW since the reboot?

I do !

I didn't see very much of Chris. I saw a lot of Tennant and mostly liked it. I think the writing has nosedived since Matt's era though.

I don't quite get how the show is written like it's for kids but is on too late to be a kids show - hence the Sarah Jane Adventures.

But it's not as adult as Torchwood.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I don't know, I never felt it was being written specifically for kids, just that it didn't necessarily exclude them.

[Kotowboy]

I'm not saying the show is bad becasue I know people do love it. And I wish I did love it too. I loved it around the Baker / Davidson /        / McCoy era.

[ariich]

I would say the writing is stronger now than during Tenant's era, though it was of course still good then.

I think it's a matter of taste. Those questions you asked Kotow, they're not the point of that story. It doesn't matter why they captured the dalek. It's a story about the Doctor's journey, trying to figure out if he's good or not, because since his regeneration he genuinely doesn't know. The "story" of the episode is backdrop to that.

[Scorpion]

While I agree with that, I actually thought that that whole "trying to understand the Daleks" thing was explained, possibly in a throw-away line... and it makes sense! If you have a Dalek that wants to kill other Daleks, then of course you'll try to study how it came to be, possibly trying to recreate the effect further down the line.

What made far less sense to me was the fact that the Doctor was thought to be a Dalek spy but was then allowed to leave to collect Clara. I mean, if he really were a spy and not a relentlessly curious Time Lord, what's to stop him from never returning? But like ariich said, that's backdrop to the main dilemma, which, in my opinion, was explored quite masterfully.

[Jamesman42]

12 was obviously intrigued by a good Dalek, he couldn't even resist being involved.

[BlobVanDam]

They explained why they captured a Dalek. It appeared to be dead in space, so it seemed like a great opportunity to study the Daleks to help them fight the war against them. Then once they started taking it apart, they realized that it wasn't just a machine, but a living creature inside, so they stopped torturing it and it became a prisoner of war. They still had enough compassion left in them to let it live, since it was seemingly harmless at that point. Yet that didn't extend to the Doctor when they were going to kill him, so they were pretty conflicted with the whole war, I think. Fighting the Daleks was a necessity for survival. I think they used this story not only to explore the Doctor, but as a parallel too.

I think the Doctor's motivations were clear. The Doctor would want to do it out of pure curiosity regardless, but he was also conflicted about it, which is why the first thing he did was grab Clara. He didn't want to help a good Dalek, because he didn't believe there was such a thing. He asked Clara if he was a good man, and she wasn't sure, then she told him he was being prejudiced against the Daleks. Clara has become the Doctor's moral compass as he struggles with who he is. He needs her as his conscience.
There was the typical benevolent part of the Doctor that wanted to help another living being in need, one that had shown signs of change. If one Dalek can become good, it could influence the rest, and prove that nobody is beyond redemption, not even the Doctor's oldest nemesis. Maybe the Doctor had to prove this to himself too, that if they can be redeemed, so can he.
On the other hand, there's a cynical side to this Doctor that hates the Daleks so much that he doesn't believe there's such a thing as a good Dalek, because he's had 2000 years of his life telling him otherwise, and he wants to see why this one is good, and prove that it's a malfunction, and not a sign of growth.

I think this also ties into the idea of disliking soldiers that ran through the episode, because they fight the same internal battle constantly. The Doctor didn't want another soldier like himself on board, that could justify killing and hatred. The Doctor's dark side comes from fighting the Daleks in the time war, and fighting them on Trenzalore for hundreds of years. He needs Clara with him, the girl who wanted him to find another way to end the time war, and only wants to see the good in people, to help him be the good man he always aspires to be, The Doctor.

I thought that was all done well in this episode, but the show does move very fast, so even missing a line or two of dialogue can leave a hole in your understanding of why something is happening. But the more I think about it, the more all of the dialogue in the episode (and season) fits with these themes.

[Onno]

Well said Blob!

[wasteland]

Blob is right and I completely and wholeheartedly agree with every word he wrote.

Mark the day, people. 

[hefdaddy42]

Finally caught the episode, and I also agree with Blob.

"She's my carer.  She cares, so I don't have to."

[masterthes]

Another great episode. It was nice to see them have a lighter episode in the mix to break up the seriousness of the first two and next week's episode. I especially loved the banter between Riley and Capaldi

[BlobVanDam]

An enjoyable episode, and the duo of Robin Hood and The Doc was great. Any other Doctor would have had the time of his life finding out that Robin Hood was real, but the 12th Doctor was not having any of it.

I thought the ending with shooting the arrow being enough to get them into orbit was beyond ridiculous, and I still don't know how a sonic screwdriver could make a wooden target blow up like that. Aside from that, a good fun episode. If this is a filler episode, then this season is looking pretty good so far.

Any guesses on the whole promised land story arc?

[ariich]

I thought the ending with shooting the arrow being enough to get them into orbit was beyond ridiculous

I've read this comment elsewhere, but what was so ridiculous about it? Obviously it was a bit silly and cheesy, but I've seen people describing it as a plot hole.

Anyway, loved the episode! Probably my favourite of the series so far, my favourite from Gatiss, and one of the best "fun" DW episodes they've ever done. I'm loving Capaldi's grumpy Doctor, it brings a whole side of humour to the show that hasn't been there with the last few Doctors!

[BlobVanDam]

I thought the ending with shooting the arrow being enough to get them into orbit was beyond ridiculous

I've read this comment elsewhere, but what was so ridiculous about it? Obviously it was a bit silly and cheesy, but I've seen people describing it as a plot hole.

First of all, requiring gold to power the engines was kinda contrived to fit with the time period of the story, but I can let that one slide easily enough.
But just look at the large amounts of gold they required for the thing, and how the gold needed to be pressed into those specific shapes for the "matrix" of the engine or whatever it was. And then the Doctor knows they don't have enough gold to make it to orbit, but a tiny little arrow just happens to be enough to push it over the edge to make the difference. The amount of gold in that thing would have been completely negligible compared to the gold they were gathering, much too small an amount for The Doctor to intuitively know they didn't have enough, or to have made any difference. And it wasn't even put into an engine, it was just shot randomly into the side of the ship.
Basically it came down to them needing a way for Robin Hood to save the day that fit with his mythology, and that was all they had. A king would have had enough gold lying around to power those engines long before The Doc showed up. How was it not ridiculous?


It was a good episode, but that was silly. But it wasn't a serious episode, so it didn't ruin the episode or anything. I'm not sure I'd call it a plot hole, it was just a whopping major inconsistency.

[ariich]

I thought the ending with shooting the arrow being enough to get them into orbit was beyond ridiculous

I've read this comment elsewhere, but what was so ridiculous about it? Obviously it was a bit silly and cheesy, but I've seen people describing it as a plot hole.

First of all, requiring gold to power the engines was kinda contrived to fit with the time period of the story, but I can let that one slide easily enough.
And then the Doctor knows they don't have enough gold to make it to orbit, but a tiny little arrow just happens to be enough to push it over the edge to make the difference.

Well yes, that's how escape velocity works. Once you're in orbit you need very little fuel to do anything after that, it's getting into orbit that's the hard part. That's basic real-word science, not even sci-fi.

And it wasn't even put into an engine, it was just shot randomly into the side of the ship.

Ok I suppose that wasn't really explained. But then from what we saw the gold was being used to make circuitry, rather than as a pure fuel, so it's hardly that outlandish, as the outside of the ship will be connected to the rest of it.

[BlobVanDam]

I thought the ending with shooting the arrow being enough to get them into orbit was beyond ridiculous

I've read this comment elsewhere, but what was so ridiculous about it? Obviously it was a bit silly and cheesy, but I've seen people describing it as a plot hole.

First of all, requiring gold to power the engines was kinda contrived to fit with the time period of the story, but I can let that one slide easily enough.
And then the Doctor knows they don't have enough gold to make it to orbit, but a tiny little arrow just happens to be enough to push it over the edge to make the difference.

Well yes, that's how escape velocity works. Once you're in orbit you need very little fuel to do anything after that, it's getting into orbit that's the hard part. That's basic real-word science, not even sci-fi.

And it wasn't even put into an engine, it was just shot randomly into the side of the ship.

Ok I suppose that wasn't really explained. But then from what we saw the gold was being used to make circuitry, rather than as a pure fuel, so it's hardly that outlandish, as the outside of the ship will be connected to the rest of it.

1. That doesn't explain how it worked. The amount of power required for escape velocity is huge, and the order of magnitude of gold they were working with rendered that arrow negligible. It would not have been the difference between barely hovering 100m off the ground, and suddenly shooting off quickly into orbit. For it to be plausible scientifically, it would have made the difference between barely making it into space but burning up from skimming the atmosphere, and achieving escape velocity. That's not what happened at all.
It looked more convincing that the arrow just pushed it into orbit, which is even more outlandish. I couldn't even accept it for scifi, let alone any resembling any real world science. And I don't hold Doctor Who to very high standards of scientific accuracy to begin with.

2. That's not how circuitry works either. I can't think of any justification for how that worked. If it was used in the sense of circuitry, it wasn't part of a closed loop, or connecting anything to anything else, and it had to go through the ship's hull, which shouldn't function in any way as part of engine OR circuitry, for oh so many reasons. If it was a "fuel" in the sense of being used up, then it wasn't even connected to the engine.
It's like duct taping a loose wire or a AA battery to the side of your laptop when the power is low, and expecting it will do something.

[ariich]

For it to be plausible scientifically, it would have made the difference between barely making it into space but burning up from skimming the atmosphere, and achieving escape velocity. That's not what happened at all.

Well no, because they stopped that from happening before it got that far. But that's exactly what the Doctor was worried about - that it would burn up, explode, and take out half of England.

That's not how circuitry works either. I can't think of any justification for how that worked.

Does that matter though? It's an alien spacecraft, it could work in all sorts of ways. I mean, yeah they could explain how that ship works, where the metal alloy casing for the ship conducts energy from the outside to help power it, for example. That sort of thing, and far more outlandish sciencey ideas, happen in DW all the time. Within the context of the show, it's completely plausible. But I'm glad they don't explain every little thing like that, personally, as I think that would get a bit boring.

Anyway, it's a bit silly to be arguing over the fictional science in a show about a time-travelling alien. I myself found that resolution of the episode a bit overly cheesy, and the weakest part of the episode. It just irritates me a bit when people shout "plot hole" at anything that hasn't been fully explained in detail. I know you didn't do that, but I've seen it elswhere.

EDIT: Another example was in Deep Breath, where people complained about the fact that Clara was so upset about the Doctor changing, even though when she went into his timeline she saw and met all his other incarnations. Again people shouted "plot hole", and didn't seem to consider that there might be a difference between understanding that the Doctor regenerates and changes, and actually losing both the appearance and personality of the one that you know and who is your friend.

[BlobVanDam]

A plot hole is when something is inadvertently overlooked or incorrect in the plot. The arrow thing was done very poorly, but it worked how they intended it to, however flimsily. Some people just throw around the term plot hole for any kind of mistake, but it refers to a specific kind of mistake.

In scifi, I expect some level of internal consistency with the rules it establishes, whatever those are. I didn't feel this was internally consistent with what the episode established. Even if they only had one block, I figured the arrow was half a percent of that, at a stretch. And they showed at least two blocks (hard to tell exactly with editing, could have been more). It doesn't even matter how the arrow was supposed to work, because I don't believe it could.
It's much more interesting and immersive when they do explain the science (at least enough for me to reasonably fill in the blanks with real world knowledge), because that's what makes it science fiction, as opposed to lazy fantasy, and it's what makes it the most rewarding genre for me. 
The only way I can justify that ending to myself is that the ship had enough power to make orbit anyway, and The Doctor was completely wrong and the arrow made no difference. That's the only way it works in my mind. Move along, Blob.

Also, I just remembered that the last laser reflecting bit was ridiculous too (just that last bit where it bounces in the circle of people to the final robot). I accepted them being able to reflect the laser back, but it ignored the third dimension entirely. It would only work if everyone could keep the rotational axis of the mirrors exactly perpendicular to the ground. Even one degree off with that many bounces means someone's toast. Luckily none of the robots were smart enough to not shoot for the feet.

But I don't want to dwell too much on the problems, as they didn't affect the episode much. It was a fun, filler episode, with Robin Hood. It didn't take itself too seriously, so I don't either.

I forgot to mention, I actually understood Capaldi this week! There was one line at the end I thought I heard wrong, and was like "What? He gave him a present?" but then it turns out I heard right.

[hefdaddy42]

I kind of agree with Blob.

I must say also, that of the first three episodes of the Capaldi era, this one is definitely in third place.  I agree that we need light episodes, but this seemed very light indeed compared to the first two.

[BlobVanDam]

I kind of agree with Blob.

I'll take it!

I agree it's the weaker of this season's episodes so far, but still enjoyable thanks to Capaldi.
I don't expect the big important stories every episode, but with all they've introduced in the first two episodes, and spending a decent amount of time last episode introducing Danny Pink, I would expect an episode this light would have been better placed a bit later. At least it did introduce The Doctor to the mystery of the promised land, so it still had its place in the season arc.

After rewatching the episode, at first the gold was to rebuild the circuits, then a few minutes later, the gold was to seal the radiation leak, and then a few minutes later the golden arrow was to power the engines because they didn't have enough power to get into orbit. Then the ship exploded because of the radiation leak. Now I'm even more confused. That gold is some magical stuff!

[Kotowboy]

That's Doctor Who writing for you.

[Kotowboy]

I just watched the episode and since Dr. Who is so ludicrously silly even when it's trying to be serious - it kind of worked this week I thought.

I like Capaldi as the Doctor though. I may keep watching just for him.

[Scorpion]

That was weird. I kinda liked it and also not. I'll have to rewatch it.

One thing that irked me was the whole scene in the cell - I think that you can show that the Doctor has trouble getting along with Robin Hood without the whole thing descending into slapstick (I'm talking about the bit with the key specifically here).

Clara was fantastic again, though, that moment with the Sheriff was great, though it did feel a little repetitive because it was very similar to the Clara / Half-Face Man scene. I liked Clara in S7, but I feel she's reaching new heights this season. Though I do wish that we would have seen a resolution of the whole "Robin Hood interoggates Clara" thing.

I also really liked Capaldi. His grumpy demeanour makes him such a welcome change from the previous Doctors and allows him to be funny without sacrificing the general seriousness of his character.

So I guess all in all I really liked most of the characters, it was just the writing that was a little iffy in places. And I won't even touch the resolution which wasn't only scientifically bullshit (not that I expect hard science from Doctor Who anyway), but it was also so cheese-drenched that I became lactose allergic just from watching it. Maybe it fares better on a second viewing, I dunno. We'll see.

Also yay at the nod to one of my favourite Classic Who stories ever in Carnival of Monsters. Everyone go watch that one, now. It's awesome.

[masterthes]

Where was the nod to Carnival? Must have missed that

[Jamesman42]

Great episode. I usually don't like shows/movies in those sort of times, but this one actually was great. I love Capaldi's short rudeness he exudes from time to time. He doesn't care, he is a jerk, and it is really entertaining.

[Jaq]

Anyone who watches Doctor Who and can't appreciate the Doctor and Robin Hood shooting a bloody gold arrow into a spaceship to make it able to achieve orbit is clearly taking the show the wrong way. That's what Doctor Who is made to do. 

[BlobVanDam]

Maybe it fares better on a second viewing, I dunno. We'll see.

It does not.
But I find I appreciate the character moments more on second viewing this season.

[ariich]

The humour in this episode is just brilliant. It's my favourite of the three so far because of it!

Every interaction between Robin and the Doctor is golden.

[Scorpion]

Where was the nod to Carnival? Must have missed that

When the Doctor mentioned the Miniscope at the beginning.

Btw, I liked it quite a bit on my second viewing. The only thing that I really didn't like was the scene with the Doctor and Robin in the cell where they kick away the key, it just felt really forced and slapstick-y. The rest was really good however, though I would have liked some more background on who the robots are.

[ariich]

That was probably my favourite scene. The dialogue is fantastic, pretty much the opposite of slapstick as the humour was all in the wit of the script. The only slapsticky bit really was the spoon fight.

[Scorpion]

I don't mean the whole scene - that part where the Doctor tells the guard that Robin soiled himself is brilliant. Just that moment when they knock him unconscious and then kick the key away.

[ariich]

Ah ok, well yeah that's a bit cheesy but it's classic Doctor Who. That sort of thing has been around since probably the second Doctor!

[Scorpion]

Well I didn't much like it with Troughton either, so I guess that makes sense.

[BlobVanDam]

I loved the whole scene in the jail cell. Individually, they both could have easily gotten that key, but they were trying so hard to one-up each other that they made a silly mistake, and made things harder for themselves.
And I liked how they first did away with the simple solution of using the sonic screwdriver as he often does, then did away with the next easiest solution of getting the key, and had to resort to carrying the whole block. It was funny, but I don't think it got too slapstick.