Haken v. new single Nightingale (April 26)

[The Letter M]

Vector has Puzzle Box and Veil which are two of their best songs but the rest is very meh. Virus is very meh overall.

Affinity best (though even that has a few meh songs too).

So you really could called the Meh-ken?

-Marc.

[Buddyhunter1]

Vector has Puzzle Box and Veil which are two of their best songs but the rest is very meh. Virus is very meh overall.

Affinity best (though even that has a few meh songs too).

So you really could called the Meh-ken?

-Marc.

It's pronounced MAYh-ken.

[Kram]

To me The Mountain is their best and it's not even close.  Bosk, have you checked out The Mountain?

[KevShmev]

Yeah, the first four albums are all miles better than the last two albums, but I get it if someone doesn't want to proceed after hearing either Vector or (especially) Virus.  The band fell off my auto-buy list as quickly as they got on it.

[Fritzinger]

Haven't been to a show in a LONG time where I intentionally missed the opening act and showed up for just the headliner, but this may be the one.  I might just be able to cross SX off the bucket list at long last. 

*smacks*

I wouldn't dare to smack mighty boskaryus but man am I tempted.

  I can't stand Haken, but (1) I certainly can't begrudge anyone for liking them, and (2) it isn't for lack of trying.  Some may remember me posting awhile back that I was asked to review one of their albums.  I spun it relentlessly and tried to stay objective and find positive things I could say about it.  But at the end of the day, I just didn't like it, and didn't feel that I could review it without being pretty negative.  So I passed on the review altogether because I don't think it is helpful at all for fans or potential fans of the band to have someone who doesn't like them publicly reviewing their album.  They just aren't for me, and I'm fine acknowledging that.

EDIT:  And nothing against the band members and their abilities.  They can clearly play.  I watched video of one of the Shattered Fortress shows, and I thought they did a great job with the material.  I just don't like their songs.

Was that for Jorge? I think I ended up writing that review 

[Fritzinger]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

[KevShmev]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer. 

[Zydar]

They spoiled us with The Mountain, so the albums after it has a lot to live up to.

[nick_z]

They spoiled us with The Mountain, so the albums after it has a lot to live up to.

Love The Mountain, but I might love Affinity even more 

[Elite]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer. 

Yup.

Vector has Puzzle Box and Veil which are two of their best songs but the rest is very meh. Virus is very meh overall.

Affinity best (though even that has a few meh songs too).

I'll forever be unsure whether Crystallised or Veil is their worst 6:30+ song.

[Buddyhunter1]

Vector has Puzzle Box and Veil which are two of their best songs but the rest is very meh. Virus is very meh overall.

Affinity best (though even that has a few meh songs too).

I'll forever be unsure whether Crystallised or Veil is their worst 6:30+ song.

Crystallised is easily my least favorite of their epics, sure, but Veil kicks ass. Yeah that transition right in the middle sucks, but that's literally my only problem with it. Great riffs and melodies, and a really good flow apart from that single transition. I love the Dream Theater-esque solo section and how it drops right into the last chorus.

[ariich]

I do find it funny how Haken have now reached that DT level of polarisation in terms of what the best/worst songs/albums are.

I love Vector and Virus. I agree with Kev that they're not a double album, but they are a two-parter and can definitely be listened to together. They're my second favourite (or second and third) behind The Mountain.

[romdrums]

They spoiled us with The Mountain, so the albums after it has a lot to live up to.

Love The Mountain, but I might love Affinity even more 

Same here.  The Mountain brought me in, but Affinity closed the deal for me.

[cramx3]

Visions FTW! But seriously, if you like DT (which I know Bosk does) then Visions is probably the best starting point with Haken IMO.

Although I've been a big Visions fan since I started listening to Haken, Virus may actually end up being my favorite album by them.  I just love the metal side of Haken

[bosk1]

Haven't been to a show in a LONG time where I intentionally missed the opening act and showed up for just the headliner, but this may be the one.  I might just be able to cross SX off the bucket list at long last. 

*smacks*

I wouldn't dare to smack mighty boskaryus but man am I tempted.

  I can't stand Haken, but (1) I certainly can't begrudge anyone for liking them, and (2) it isn't for lack of trying.  Some may remember me posting awhile back that I was asked to review one of their albums.  I spun it relentlessly and tried to stay objective and find positive things I could say about it.  But at the end of the day, I just didn't like it, and didn't feel that I could review it without being pretty negative.  So I passed on the review altogether because I don't think it is helpful at all for fans or potential fans of the band to have someone who doesn't like them publicly reviewing their album.  They just aren't for me, and I'm fine acknowledging that.

EDIT:  And nothing against the band members and their abilities.  They can clearly play.  I watched video of one of the Shattered Fortress shows, and I thought they did a great job with the material.  I just don't like their songs.

Was that for Jorge? I think I ended up writing that review 

Yes, it was.  Glad you got to do it.  My sincere apologies for causing such a short turnaround time for you though.  I held onto it for quite awhile trying to find a way to write it, and just felt that I couldn't do the band or its fanbase any justice. 


On a different note, thanks to whoever it was that suggested that I get to the show on time to see them because I might really enjoy their live show even though I haven't liked what I have heard so far (can't remember who it was, and couldn't find the post when I looked--but I am tired, so...).  That's a good suggestion.  Time permitting (it is a long drive and I have things going on earlier in the day, but I may be able to pull that off), I think I will try to do that.

[Fritzinger]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

I couldn't disagree more to this... This post might make me some enemies 

Yes, those two albums were released separately, but I really see them as one big piece of music, and here are some arguments why. It opens with Clear and closes with the same musical content in Only Stars and the words "all is clear as I end". Vector ended very abruptly. Virus is the first album since Visions not to feature an intro song. And even Aquarius had somewhat of a small overture. Ergo, it continues where A Cell Divides left off. The musical contents of both albums are brought together in Messiah Complex. Both albums come across differently (and work better imo) when listened to together than when listened apart from each other. Both albums feature the same production and sound. The covers, concepts and names are obviously connected. They tell one continuous story. So yeah, they were released separately so technically they are not a double album. But I do see them and listen to them as one double album.

Concerning the songwriting: I love their first albums. But whenever I listen to V/V and Affinity and then to their first 3 albums immediately afterwards, those first 3 albums sound FAR less mature and sophisticated to me. It's the rhythmical level and masterful drumming of Ray Hearne alone that elevates those later albums above the earlier ones for me. But not just that, songs like Veil, The Architect, 1985, Carousel are masterful compositions. And since apparently we're generalizing stuff like "level of songwriting": I think the later albums are not far below the level of their earlier ones. Quite the contrary: those later compositions are far superior in every way in my opinion. And I have heard few albums released in the last 4-5 years that managed to stand up to them.

[Fritzinger]

Yes, it was.  Glad you got to do it.  My sincere apologies for causing such a short turnaround time for you though.  I held onto it for quite awhile trying to find a way to write it, and just felt that I couldn't do the band or its fanbase any justice. 

No worries, I had fun writing it. And I even got to write one for Virus for Sonic Perspectives last year

[cramx3]

Fritz, I think it's semantics.  There's clearly a link between the two albums with call backs in the songs from Virus to Vector and there's also a loose story between the albums.  However, being released separately, to me, makes them companion albums and not a single double album.  I think it's just semantics though, the artistic vision is pretty clear that the two albums go together. I won't get too hung up on someone calling it a double album personally, but I think semantically, that's not correct IMO.

[Kram]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

I couldn't disagree more to this... This post might make me some enemies 

Yes, those two albums were released separately, but I really see them as one big piece of music, and here are some arguments why. It opens with Clear and closes with the same musical content in Only Stars and the words "all is clear as I end". Vector ended very abruptly. Virus is the first album since Visions not to feature an intro song. And even Aquarius had somewhat of a small overture. Ergo, it continues where A Cell Divides left off. The musical contents of both albums are brought together in Messiah Complex. Both albums come across differently (and work better imo) when listened to together than when listened apart from each other. Both albums feature the same production and sound. The covers, concepts and names are obviously connected. They tell one continuous story. So yeah, they were released separately so technically they are not a double album. But I do see them and listen to them as one double album.

Concerning the songwriting: I love their first albums. But whenever I listen to V/V and Affinity and then to their first 3 albums immediately afterwards, those first 3 albums sound FAR less mature and sophisticated to me. It's the rhythmical level and masterful drumming of Ray Hearne alone that elevates those later albums above the earlier ones for me. But not just that, songs like Veil, The Architect, 1985, Carousel are masterful compositions. And since apparently we're generalizing stuff like "level of songwriting": I think the later albums are not far below the level of their earlier ones. Quite the contrary: those later compositions are far superior in every way in my opinion. And I have heard few albums released in the last 4-5 years that managed to stand up to them.

I'm with you, I really like Virus and Vector for that matter, I just think The Mountain is better (and yes the songwriting in the Mountain is better IMO).  Couldn't agree more about Ray however - he's turned into an absolute beast the last two albums!!

[jammindude]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

[TheCountOfNYC]

I wouldn't call them a double album, but the fact that Haken were planning on playing them back to back live tells me the the band themselves consider them companions.

[The Letter M]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

I'm not sure WHAT to think because even though Ayreon released both The Dream Sequencer AND Flight Of The Migrator simultaneously, they're still counted as the 4th and 5th albums, despite being two parts of the Universal Migrator. I personally consider both parts of a double album and then count The Human Equation as the fifth Ayreon album, but most places consider that the sixth one, so who knows anymore. Both albums were later re-released as a double album. I think the fact that they were written and released simultaneously helps the argument of calling them a double, but that's just me.

-Marc.

[Elite]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

Automata I & II were recorded at the same time and it was a conscious decision to release them in two parts. Vector & Virus were written and recorded completely separately two years apart.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

I'm not sure WHAT to think because even though Ayreon released both The Dream Sequencer AND Flight Of The Migrator simultaneously, they're still counted as the 4th and 5th albums, despite being two parts of the Universal Migrator. I personally consider both parts of a double album and then count The Human Equation as the fifth Ayreon album, but most places consider that the sixth one, so who knows anymore. Both albums were later re-released as a double album. I think the fact that they were written and released simultaneously helps the argument of calling them a double, but that's just me.

-Marc.

For me, the distinction of Double and Single album only relates to the album contracts musicians have with their labels. Releasing two separate albums of the same single concept, possibly counts as two albums being done under the contract. I see it as a way to handle the legal logistics and all that.

For me, the band releasing one single concept separately doesn't matter as the main focus is on the concept. So therefore for me, Virus and Vector are one concept released in two separate discs.

I liked the way they informed us the next release after Vector was going to be a compliment to it, by showing us through Social Media, pictures of Ketchup and Mustard, like saying "We got Ketchup, what compliments it?....Mustard."

I personally enjoy the albums and the story. The music compliments the story and enhances that mood of the type of story it is about. The music makes it feel as if you are the patient being experimented on by "The Good Doctor".

When I listen to concept albums, I do not treat them as normal albums with a collection of unrelated songs. I see them as a unit that when analyzed, needs to include what the concept is about, how the music is telling the story and also the lyrics, does the music progress the story or enhance the mood. This is a big reason I can enjoy Arjen and his cheese in Ayreon, because Ayreon is a big sci-fi concept and world he created, and the music being cheesy fits that concept of sci-fi in the vein of his favorite sci-fi series, Star Trek.

[ariich]

I think you guys are all high. The double decker Vector/Virus is one of the best double albums I have ever heard and I don't understand why it's not regarded a modern classic of the genre 

Well, first off, it's not a double album (sorry, it isn't), and second, the songwriting overall is far below the level of not only their first four albums, but of the best the genre has to offer.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

Automata I & II were recorded at the same time and it was a conscious decision to release them in two parts. Vector & Virus were written and recorded completely separately two years apart.

Correct.

When they made Vector, they planned to do a sequel, but Virus was written entirely separately after Vector was out.

Automata was written entirely as a single work. In fact the early version I got to hear via my brother (who as many of you know is in Nova Collective with Dan Briggs) was a single album, and that was before Automata I had even been announced.

[425]

For me the distinction between a double album and a set of companion albums is whether they have been widely distributed in separate packages. That marks them off as separable artistic units, while them always being released together marks them as a single unit. So something like the Universal Migrator albums are separate albums because they were sold separately, even though they have also been sold together. But something like The Astonishing is one double album, even though it's divided into "Act I" and "Act II," because it's always sold as a single package containing two discs.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Both albums feature the same production and sound.

I couldn't disagree more. The production on Vector sounds like a band jamming in the same room (despite individual timbres leave a bit to be desired), but on Virus it feels incredibly thin which is poorly made up for by excessive brickwalling. They couldn't be more different imo, & for this reason I find the transition between them jarring.

Re: double albums - by definition, if an artist releases two albums in separately, they are separate (albeit connected) entities. Some bands have done this even when it made zero sense (Periphery, BTBAM, C&C, etc.), but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

[ariich]

Both albums feature the same production and sound.

I couldn't disagree more. The production on Vector sounds like a band jamming in the same room (despite individual timbres leave a bit to be desired), but on Virus it feels incredibly thin which is poorly made up for by excessive brickwalling. They couldn't be more different imo, & for this reason I find the transition between them jarring.

Interesting, I don't agree at all. Other that the keyboards being a little low in the mix, I slightly prefer the sound on Virus to Vector but find them generally very similar.

[me7]

Automata was written entirely as a single work. In fact the early version I got to hear via my brother (who as many of you know is in Nova Collective with Dan Briggs) was a single album, and that was before Automata I had even been announced.

Interesting nugget. Was the track list similar to Automata I and II appended or did it feature a unique sequencing?

[ariich]

Automata was written entirely as a single work. In fact the early version I got to hear via my brother (who as many of you know is in Nova Collective with Dan Briggs) was a single album, and that was before Automata I had even been announced.

Interesting nugget. Was the track list similar to Automata I and II appended or did it feature a unique sequencing?

It was identical to the finished products. In fact I think it probably was the finished product, or was possibly pre-mastering.

[KevShmev]

Yes, those two albums were released separately, but I really see them as one big piece of music, and here are some arguments why. It opens with Clear and closes with the same musical content in Only Stars and the words "all is clear as I end". Vector ended very abruptly. Virus is the first album since Visions not to feature an intro song. And even Aquarius had somewhat of a small overture. Ergo, it continues where A Cell Divides left off. The musical contents of both albums are brought together in Messiah Complex. Both albums come across differently (and work better imo) when listened to together than when listened apart from each other. Both albums feature the same production and sound. The covers, concepts and names are obviously connected. They tell one continuous story. So yeah, they were released separately so technically they are not a double album. But I do see them and listen to them as one double album.

So do the three Godfather films, but we do not call them collectively one film.  It was a story told over three films, just like the Haken story (whatever it is) is told over two albums. 

Or think of it this way: the TV show Breaking Bad told a story over the course of 62 episodes.  Should we call it all one big episode because they all told one continuous story?  Nope.

So are Automata 1 and 2 by BTBAM completely separate albums, or two parts of a double album?

Because I honestly see absolutely zero difference between the two Automata albums and V/V

I do not listen to that band, so I honestly have no idea.

[El Barto]

Just saw the new dates. Looks like I'll be getting to the venue at 7:45 and sitting down to dinner in K-Town by 8:45. Pretty disappointing. They're also playing the same bar and grill they played last time through. Even more disappointing. Plus, those dates are so crammed together there's really no possibility of them breaking away for one-off headline gigs like they were doing with Devin Townsend. Starting to wonder if I'm ever going to get to see these guys do a full set. 

[cramx3]

Just saw the new dates. Looks like I'll be getting to the venue at 7:45 and sitting down to dinner in K-Town by 8:45. Pretty disappointing. They're also playing the same bar and grill they played last time through. Even more disappointing. Plus, those dates are so crammed together there's really no possibility of them breaking away for one-off headline gigs like they were doing with Devin Townsend. Starting to wonder if I'm ever going to get to see these guys do a full set.

I got to imagine they'll want to do a headlining tour again soon enough, but I'd also expect them to appear at a ProgPower again so you can always make the trip to Atlanta when that happens and maybe get to enjoy a bunch of other bands and good times atmosphere.

But as I mentioned to bosk, you wouldn't at least want to check out the other headliner since you're already there and paid for it?  Not sure of your history with SX though, I know bosk wasn't a fan of Haken but also had never seen them live.

[Nick]

Just saw the new dates. Looks like I'll be getting to the venue at 7:45 and sitting down to dinner in K-Town by 8:45. Pretty disappointing. They're also playing the same bar and grill they played last time through. Even more disappointing. Plus, those dates are so crammed together there's really no possibility of them breaking away for one-off headline gigs like they were doing with Devin Townsend. Starting to wonder if I'm ever going to get to see these guys do a full set.

I got to imagine they'll want to do a headlining tour again soon enough, but I'd also expect them to appear at a ProgPower again so you can always make the trip to Atlanta when that happens and maybe get to enjoy a bunch of other bands and good times atmosphere.

But as I mentioned to bosk, you wouldn't at least want to check out the other headliner since you're already there and paid for it?  Not sure of your history with SX though, I know bosk wasn't a fan of Haken but also had never seen them live.

Haken where the first band to play back to back ProgPower years in 10 years, and that was only because of Shattered Fortress and likely a little bit of strong-arming from MP. It's not a festival that likes to repeat themselves too quickly, so I'd guess Haken won't be back there for the next 2 or 3 years at least.

[cramx3]

Just saw the new dates. Looks like I'll be getting to the venue at 7:45 and sitting down to dinner in K-Town by 8:45. Pretty disappointing. They're also playing the same bar and grill they played last time through. Even more disappointing. Plus, those dates are so crammed together there's really no possibility of them breaking away for one-off headline gigs like they were doing with Devin Townsend. Starting to wonder if I'm ever going to get to see these guys do a full set.

I got to imagine they'll want to do a headlining tour again soon enough, but I'd also expect them to appear at a ProgPower again so you can always make the trip to Atlanta when that happens and maybe get to enjoy a bunch of other bands and good times atmosphere.

But as I mentioned to bosk, you wouldn't at least want to check out the other headliner since you're already there and paid for it?  Not sure of your history with SX though, I know bosk wasn't a fan of Haken but also had never seen them live.

Haken where the first band to play back to back ProgPower years in 10 years, and that was only because of Shattered Fortress and likely a little bit of strong-arming from MP. It's not a festival that likes to repeat themselves too quickly, so I'd guess Haken won't be back there for the next 2 or 3 years at least.

Yup, just like they may not do another full headline tour of the US in 2-3 years. PP has only a few years left and I'd be shocked if they don't play it again before its ending. I do think a full headline tour should happen before their next PP appearance, but who knows.