(Now online!) Interviewing Mike Mangini in a few days, give me your questions!

[Sycsa]

If I couldn't ghost note on the snare, I would never make it through a performance.  That's what gives you the groove.

MM does plenty of snare ghost notes on DT12, I don't know why this is being perpetuated. Behind The Veil 2:57, for instance, and all over the guitar solo of The Bigger Picture.

[rumborak]

Behind the Veil at 2:57 has like one or two that got through, true. But note also that by the second time the figure comes around, those hits get compressed again to sound like main hits. That's what he is struggling with.
And, it's not exactly that we're "perpetuating" something here. He said it himself, can't be clearer than that right really.

[BlobVanDam]

Behind the Veil at 2:57 has like one or two that got through, true. But note also that by the second time the figure comes around, those hits get compressed again to sound like main hits. That's what he is struggling with.
And, it's not exactly that we're "perpetuating" something here. He said it himself, can't be clearer than that right really.

It sounds like a similar deal in TBP, where they're initially much softer, then sound like full on hits by the end. Maybe he actually did play it like that, but to have that happen in both instances suggests it was perhaps difficult to get within within that range the compression allowed. It doesn't sound as organic and subtle as it does on older albums, through no fault of MM's.

MM didn't say he couldn't do ghost notes though, he said that the sound put him off doing it, but I doubt he's hearing it with with production while recording it, so it might just be down to the way the ghost notes sounded with the detuned snare. With softer dynamics it might not have sounded clear and snappy enough with that sound for him to be feeling it.

[hefdaddy42]

I must say, it's a strange problem.  I don't recall ever hearing such a thing from any other drummer.

[Sycsa]

Behind the Veil at 2:57 has like one or two that got through, true. But note also that by the second time the figure comes around, those hits get compressed again to sound like main hits. That's what he is struggling with.
And, it's not exactly that we're "perpetuating" something here. He said it himself, can't be clearer than that right really.

He said that the snare sound made him put ghost notes off the snare to the rides and hi-hats, which you interpreted like a Sith (dealing in absolutes), saying that he was "robbed of the ability to play ghost notes", which obviously isn't the case, as there are lots of snare ghost notes on DT12. That's what's being falsely perpetuated. Moving some ghost notes to cymbals ≠ not being able to play them on the snare.

Moving on, MM posted this on FB:

An online helper of mine brought this clip to me in light of my wondering how far I should take the older DT drum tracks as different than the recorded versions. I think by now, that 97+% of fans seeing us know that I have respect for the original parts and I can now perform them similarly, but not exact to the record. The overwhelming amount of positive comments have helped me understand what the people that matter think.This is nice because THIS is where I'm took the pre-ADTOE songs after "...4th Wall" was shot and where I am going from now on. (...) So, No more just copying the recording fills. I felt like that what the right thing to do when playing an older tune for people live. From now on, it is pedal to the METAL.

We've seen this tendency for quite a while, but it's still contradictory to what JP & JR said in the drummer auditions video ("we need the old songs to sound a certain way"), often criticizing drummers who interpreted MP's parts too much. I'm glad they now officially changed this policy and MM can finally have his way.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I think it's a matter of if the essence of the songs is there. I mean, drummers like Peter Wildoer, for example, he's so aggressive that his style of drumming would fill every DT song with balls to the wall bombast. Or at least that's how he sounded on the audition. He's a great drummer, but I could hear at the audition, that in spite of playing the parts correctly, his style just didn't fit DT at all.

With what MM is doing with the fills, I don't think it's any different than what MP used to do when he'd improvise his fills. The essence of the song was still there, and it still felt right, but at the same time, it was just something a little more indulgent and impressive, which is what people generally want out of prog.

Plus at the beginning, I think they were more concerned with making sure the new drummer, whoever it would end up being, wouldn't alienate the fans. So I'm sure that state of mind was always meant to be temporary, just like ADTOE being made for the purpose of proving that they're still the "same band" and will put out the "same kind of music". At this point, I think MM has gotten as much acceptance from the DT fanbase as he we could possibly expect, so there's no pressure to prove that he's a right drummer for Dream Theater, anymore. People either agree that he is, or they want Portnoy back, and I doubt that's gonna change.
Not to mention, like he said, this is from the general fan consensus.

[Madman Shepherd]

Behind the Veil at 2:57 has like one or two that got through, true. But note also that by the second time the figure comes around, those hits get compressed again to sound like main hits. That's what he is struggling with.
And, it's not exactly that we're "perpetuating" something here. He said it himself, can't be clearer than that right really.

He said that the snare sound made him put ghost notes off the snare to the rides and hi-hats, which you interpreted like a Sith (dealing in absolutes), saying that he was "robbed of the ability to play ghost notes", which obviously isn't the case, as there are lots of snare ghost notes on DT12. That's what's being falsely perpetuated. Moving some ghost notes to cymbals ≠ not being able to play them on the snare.

Moving on, MM posted this on FB:

An online helper of mine brought this clip to me in light of my wondering how far I should take the older DT drum tracks as different than the recorded versions. I think by now, that 97+% of fans seeing us know that I have respect for the original parts and I can now perform them similarly, but not exact to the record. The overwhelming amount of positive comments have helped me understand what the people that matter think.This is nice because THIS is where I'm took the pre-ADTOE songs after "...4th Wall" was shot and where I am going from now on. (...) So, No more just copying the recording fills. I felt like that what the right thing to do when playing an older tune for people live. From now on, it is pedal to the METAL.

We've seen this tendency for quite a while, but it's still contradictory to what JP & JR said in the drummer auditions video ("we need the old songs to sound a certain way"), often criticizing drummers who interpreted MP's parts too much. I'm glad they now officially changed this policy and MM can finally have his way.

I think it is a bit unfair to say that it was a "policy" of theirs.  I feel like it was just a guideline for auditions and they never planned on having a drummer that plays the part identically for the rest of their career.  Regardless, I am glad that MM is letting loose now because that fill in question is fucking monstrous and uniquely Mangini.  BTW, if you didn't see his FB post, he link in question is below, complete with commentary from whoever the dude is that posted it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeHLDfrF3Uo

[Sycsa]

Well, I think it's a matter of if the essence of the songs is there. I mean, drummers like Peter Wildoer, for example, he's so aggressive that his style of drumming would fill every DT song with balls to the wall bombast. Or at least that's how he sounded on the audition. He's a great drummer, but I could hear at the audition, that in spite of playing the parts correctly, his style just didn't fit DT at all.

With what MM is doing with the fills, I don't think it's any different than what MP used to do when he'd improvise his fills. The essence of the song was still there, and it still felt right, but at the same time, it was just something a little more indulgent and impressive, which is what people generally want out of prog.

Plus at the beginning, I think they were more concerned with making sure the new drummer, whoever it would end up being, wouldn't alienate the fans. So I'm sure that state of mind was always meant to be temporary, just like ADTOE being made for the purpose of proving that they're still the "same band" and will put out the "same kind of music". At this point, I think MM has gotten as much acceptance from the DT fanbase as he we could possibly expect, so there's no pressure to prove that he's a right drummer for Dream Theater, anymore. People either agree that he is, or they want Portnoy back, and I doubt that's gonna change.
Not to mention, like he said, this is from the general fan consensus.

I think it is a bit unfair to say that it was a "policy" of theirs.  I feel like it was just a guideline for auditions and they never planned on having a drummer that plays the part identically for the rest of their career.

Agreed, good points. I think this marks the real "Mangini unleashed" moment. Maybe next time he'll also get more say in the studio as well.

[rumborak]

All this talk about the snare in DT12 made me really focus on it now, and man, it sounds like an electronic drum kit, kinda like the I&W snare (was that the "vision"?).

[Sycsa]

All this talk about the snare in DT12 made me really focus on it now, and man, it sounds like an electronic drum kit, kinda like the I&W snare (was that the "vision"?).

When I first listened to DT12, this was exactly what I thought. The I&W snare is frowned upon a lot, but it definitely has a lot of character, it's unique and unmistakable. When I hear it, it instantly takes me back to the feeling I had when I heard the album for the very first time. This doesn't happen with most albums. For better or worse, they probably wanted to go for a similar uniqueness with DT12. It works for me, I like how it sounds. 

[Madman Shepherd]

All this talk about the snare in DT12 made me really focus on it now, and man, it sounds like an electronic drum kit, kinda like the I&W snare (was that the "vision"?).

When I first listened to DT12, this was exactly what I thought. The I&W snare is frowned upon a lot, but it definitely has a lot of character, it's unique and unmistakable. When I hear it, it instantly takes me back to the feeling I had when I heard the album for the very first time. This doesn't happen with most albums. For better or worse, they probably wanted to go for a similar uniqueness with DT12. It works for me, I like how it sounds.

This is exactly how I felt about the drum sound.  It is unique and puts it distinctly in the time period it was recorded.  Will it sound dated in 5-10 years?  I think it is very likely much in the same way I&W sounds dated. 

I find it a bit ironic that there are people that love the sound of I&W but hate what they did with DT12 because I really do think it was the same mentality that lead them to do that.  I can understand people not liking the sound of DT12 and liking the sound of I&W but to trash them for trying something along the same lines as the sound on I&W is a bit hypocritical.  Hope that makes sense. 

It just so happens that the DT12 sound works for me but I was also very much in the moment when I listened to it.  If I first heard DT12 8 years from now like how I heard I&W 8 years from the time it was recorded, I do not know if I would be so forgiving of a very unique and in your face way of featuring the drums. 

[rumborak]

I find it a bit ironic that there are people that love the sound of I&W but hate what they did with DT12 because I really do think it was the same mentality that lead them to do that.  I can understand people not liking the sound of DT12 and liking the sound of I&W but to trash them for trying something along the same lines as the sound on I&W is a bit hypocritical.

I don't see that being hypocritical at all. It's called "putting music into context". I&W is unmistakably a product of the early 90s, and because of that, while I still smirk at the choice of triggering the snare on I&W, I also know that that's what a lot of acts did in those days.
This is 2014 though, and flattening your snare into a pancake is an unfortunate thing to do, as is compressing everything else on your record.

[TheGreatPretender]

This is 2014 though, and flattening your snare into a pancake is an unfortunate thing to do, as is compressing everything else on your record.

Which is also a product of these times.

[rumborak]

A product of the 2000s. Vapor Trails and Death Magnetic are 12 and 6 years ago respectively, and they created a ton of backlash. Rush even had Vapor Trails remastered. That DT would release another over-compressed album of theirs (SC being the first) is kinda unfathomable to me.

[TheGreatPretender]

Neither of them are that bad (SC and DT12 I mean). They're compressed, but the way they're composed, they're still very listenable.
Although I can't help but wonder if DT12 was compressed specifically so that they could try and sell the HD tracks version to those who give a damn.

[Skeever]

All this talk about the snare in DT12 made me really focus on it now, and man, it sounds like an electronic drum kit, kinda like the I&W snare (was that the "vision"?).

When I first listened to DT12, this was exactly what I thought. The I&W snare is frowned upon a lot, but it definitely has a lot of character, it's unique and unmistakable. When I hear it, it instantly takes me back to the feeling I had when I heard the album for the very first time. This doesn't happen with most albums. For better or worse, they probably wanted to go for a similar uniqueness with DT12. It works for me, I like how it sounds.

This is exactly how I felt about the drum sound.  It is unique and puts it distinctly in the time period it was recorded.  Will it sound dated in 5-10 years?  I think it is very likely much in the same way I&W sounds dated. 

I find it a bit ironic that there are people that love the sound of I&W but hate what they did with DT12 because I really do think it was the same mentality that lead them to do that.  I can understand people not liking the sound of DT12 and liking the sound of I&W but to trash them for trying something along the same lines as the sound on I&W is a bit hypocritical.  Hope that makes sense. 

It just so happens that the DT12 sound works for me but I was also very much in the moment when I listened to it.  If I first heard DT12 8 years from now like how I heard I&W 8 years from the time it was recorded, I do not know if I would be so forgiving of a very unique and in your face way of featuring the drums.

There's a key difference for me, though. On Images and Words, every single instrument has its own sonic space. JP isn't overbearing. JM is distinct, but not too loud. Kevin is buried in some places, but those seem to be creative choices that were honestly for the better. Then you have MP's kit, cutting through with a really intense trigger that makes it sound like Mike is hitting the drums as hard as he can with each hit. It gives each of the songs a really nice "heavy" groove, actually adds (to use an MPism) "balls" to the album. It was a style choice.

On DT12, it doesn't sound like that. The recording is completely, with John Petrucci taking up the majority of the sonic space. The snare is triggered again, not to give the sound extra oomph but because it sounds like it needs to be to have any distinction in the mess of a guitar-drowned mix that has been produced.

This cues a huge problem for me with all DT records since Six Degrees - the guitars are too damn loud. I read the section in Lifting Shadows where Shirley says that he had increased the volume of the guitars by half a decibel to appease John. Frankly, that's an issue for me. I do not think JP is an expert when it comes to self-producing (who really is?) and DT would be a lot better for me if JP would make his guitars even 1 or 2 dbs less loud.

[TheGreatPretender]

There's a key difference for me, though. On Images and Words, every single instrument has its own sonic space. JP isn't overbearing. JM is distinct, but not too loud. Kevin is buried in some places, but those seem to be creative choices that were honestly for the better. Then you have MP's kit, cutting through with a really intense trigger that makes it sound like Mike is hitting the drums as hard as he can with each hit. It gives each of the songs a really nice "heavy" groove, actually adds (to use an MPism) "balls" to the album. It was a style choice.

On DT12, it doesn't sound like that. The recording is completely, with John Petrucci taking up the majority of the sonic space. The snare is triggered again, not to give the sound extra oomph but because it sounds like it needs to be to have any distinction in the mess of a guitar-drowned mix that has been produced.

This cues a huge problem for me with all DT records since Six Degrees - the guitars are too damn loud. I read the section in Lifting Shadows where Shirley says that he had increased the volume of the guitars by half a decibel to appease John. Frankly, that's an issue for me. I do not think JP is an expert when it comes to self-producing (who really is?) and DT would be a lot better for me if JP would make his guitars even 1 or 2 dbs less loud.

If you ask me, I'd say the guitars on I&W are too quiet. Of course they're not overbearing, they're underbearing. And the snare sound isn't good. I mean, it just sounds unnatural, and doesn't match the rest of the drum sound at all, if you ask me. That's probably why MP had a problem with it, and not the triggered snare on LATM.

Not saying that DT's sound these days doesn't have room for improvements, but I&W was far from perfect.

[Onno]

Neither of them are that bad (SC and DT12 I mean). They're compressed, but the way they're composed, they're still very listenable.
Although I can't help but wonder if DT12 was compressed specifically so that they could try and sell the HD tracks version to those who give a damn.

In my opinion, the CD version of DT12 is almost unlistenable. I think SC and BC&SL are also very compressed, but they're still listenable.

[Skeever]

I really don't see how the guitars could be too low for you, but whatever.

Honestly, I think Prater was a little creative with that whole job. If you listen closely to MP's parts on Images, he actually overplays quite a bit, and his parts are pretty distracting. However, the way the drums are triggered adds emphasis to the meat of Portnoy's playing, the kick and snare, and diminishes the more showy parts. Same with Kevin Moore. There are plenty of times on the album where Moore disappears from the mix. If you listen to live versions of those songs, it's pretty apparent why. Overall I find the whole job to be pretty good. As producer, Prater seems to have used both overt and more subtle ways of reeling in a very hot band. Had he not been there, Images and Words may have turned into too much of a talent circus for me to enjoy.

[TheGreatPretender]

I really don't see how the guitars could be too low for you, but whatever.

Well, I guess more like the keyboards are too loud. I don't know where you think he disappears from the mix, but most of the time the keyboards overshadow the guitar so much that it  takes the "Metal" away from Progressive Metal.

[Skeever]

I don't agree at all. There was a long time when DT were really on the borderline between prog and metal, most metal fans I knew considered them to be more prog. Since Train of Thought the metal has obviously become the dominant portion. Oh well.

[theseoafs]

I've got a weird relationship with the drums on DT12.  I think the record is super over-compressed, but yet everything sounds OK enough in total... at the same time, the drums are a little distracting and don't sound so great if I focus on them.  I'm a big believer that a good, natural sounding drum track can really complement a metal record (the first example that comes to mind for me is Fear of a Blank Planet), and I would have preferred that to whatever it is that we got with DT12.  That's just my personal preference, but hearing that it gave so much trouble to MM in the studio (for no real reason, I might add) is pretty disheartening too.

[erwinrafael]

Behind the Veil at 2:57 has like one or two that got through, true. But note also that by the second time the figure comes around, those hits get compressed again to sound like main hits. That's what he is struggling with.
And, it's not exactly that we're "perpetuating" something here. He said it himself, can't be clearer than that right really.

He said that the snare sound made him put ghost notes off the snare to the rides and hi-hats, which you interpreted like a Sith (dealing in absolutes), saying that he was "robbed of the ability to play ghost notes", which obviously isn't the case, as there are lots of snare ghost notes on DT12. That's what's being falsely perpetuated. Moving some ghost notes to cymbals ≠ not being able to play them on the snare.

The way I hear it from the record is that the ghost notes on the snare indeed does not sound too good. It sounds too...fat? I can't find the word to describe it.

Moving on, MM posted this on FB:

An online helper of mine brought this clip to me in light of my wondering how far I should take the older DT drum tracks as different than the recorded versions. I think by now, that 97+% of fans seeing us know that I have respect for the original parts and I can now perform them similarly, but not exact to the record. The overwhelming amount of positive comments have helped me understand what the people that matter think.This is nice because THIS is where I'm took the pre-ADTOE songs after "...4th Wall" was shot and where I am going from now on. (...) So, No more just copying the recording fills. I felt like that what the right thing to do when playing an older tune for people live. From now on, it is pedal to the METAL.

We've seen this tendency for quite a while, but it's still contradictory to what JP & JR said in the drummer auditions video ("we need the old songs to sound a certain way"), often criticizing drummers who interpreted MP's parts too much. I'm glad they now officially changed this policy and MM can finally have his way.

The key is in your own statement. Some of the drummers interpreted MP's parts TOO MUCH. MM, while doing his pedal to the metal thing nowadays, still hews closely to the essence of the song. His performance in The Shattered Fortress, for example, is amazing but retains the spirit. It's quite different from what we heard in the drummer auditions in the case of Virigil Donati, for example, who was amazing but indeed changed the feel of the song because he is doing his own thing.


Now about the compression...I have two versions of DT in my phone - HDTracks flac and the highliy compressed mp3s. HD Tracks is really way better, but when I am listening to my mobile device while commuting or walking, the quality shines only when I use my noise-canceling in-ear phones. When I use my normal earphones, which is what I normally use when I am outside so that I could hear if a car is about to run me over, the mp3s do sound better. I think that is the dillema DT, and maybe John Petrucci in particular as the producer, is facing. More and more people actually listen through these mobile devices in environments that are not actually friendly to hi-quality uncompressed formats because they sound really weak when external noise bleeds through.

[Rodni Demental]

Now about the compression...I have two versions of DT in my phone - HDTracks flac and the highliy compressed mp3s. HD Tracks is really way better, but when I am listening to my mobile device while commuting or walking, the quality shines only when I use my noise-canceling in-ear phones. When I use my normal earphones, which is what I normally use when I am outside so that I could hear if a car is about to run me over, the mp3s do sound better. I think that is the dillema DT, and maybe John Petrucci in particular as the producer, is facing. More and more people actually listen through these mobile devices in environments that are not actually friendly to hi-quality uncompressed formats because they sound really weak when external noise bleeds through.

Exactly, they sort of have to cater to the lowest common denominator as far as equipment goes. The average person listens through a fairly basic stereo, computer speaker, or earbuds. Possibly while they're doing other things. Sometimes even through youtube or other streamed sources which have added their own compression that wouldn't cater well to the higher quality tracks. As great as it is, sometimes it's hard to find time to just sit down and take in the whole music experience which is when you truly appreciate the overall soundscape and this is when you don't appreciate the overcompression used often today. It's tricky because it's a bit unfair to eliminate one for the other if there's valid reasons for both. I think the best way is to have both options available, but maybe not be so extortionate about it.

[rumborak]

I guess they shifted their target demographic, but back in the day DT's music was *specifically* not meant for casual listening.

Also, they simply should have added the HDtracks as an optional download to the regular CD. As it is, you not only have to pay again, but even more than the regular album.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't agree at all. There was a long time when DT were really on the borderline between prog and metal, most metal fans I knew considered them to be more prog. Since Train of Thought the metal has obviously become the dominant portion. Oh well.

They were more prog, but I'd say I&W was almost TOO prog at parts. And yeah, I'd say The Glass Prison was their first foray into the "balls and chunk" realm that they never really got back from in subsequent, for better or for worse. But Awake, FII and SFAM still had some really strong riffs, and most of them weren't buried in keyboard effects the way a lot of I&W stuff was. It's good, don't get me wrong, thank God KM used some great keyboard sounds on it, because if he used the kind of patches on I&W that he used on Awake, I&W would have sounded like complete ass. Bullet dodged, I guess.

As far as I&W goes, while the overcompression and the master of the 2007 remixes from the Greatest Hit compilation weren't the best, when it comes to the mix, I think it was much better, with the guitar a bit more up front. But that's just my preference.

[Madman Shepherd]

I guess they shifted their target demographic, but back in the day DT's music was *specifically* not meant for casual listening.

They have always made an effort to have songs that were more appealing to the masses (Status Seeker, Pull Me Under) and there were some where they made no compromise to how they would write (Learning to Live and many others) but I don't think they ever said, "This better not appeal to the casual listener!"

[rumborak]

Well, as said, the CD (which I view as "the release" of the album) is obviously compressed to the level it is for the purpose of being listened to in loud environments and cheap headphones. That has always been the very point of the loudness war, so that you can listen to it (and hear everything) in your car or that USB speaker at work.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, as said, the CD (which I view as "the release" of the album) is obviously compressed to the level it is for the purpose of being listened to in loud environments and cheap headphones. That has always been the very point of the loudness war, so that you can listen to it (and hear everything) in your car or that USB speaker at work.

It's a shame music is mastered for the lowest common denominator these days, at the expense of sounding good. More complex niche music such as DT's shouldn't be treated like that.
The drum sound of DT12 is better on the HDTracks version (the snare doesn't sound too bad on that version), but on the album, you can't make out anything. BTFW is the only DT/MM drum mix that I've considered even good (and I think it's great). If you're going to unleash the beast, let us hear it!

[Sycsa]

As far as I&W goes, while the overcompression and the master of the 2007 remixes from the Greatest Hit compilation weren't the best, when it comes to the mix, I think it was much better, with the guitar a bit more up front. But that's just my preference.

That's exactly why I hated it. The guitar was so overbearing, I couldn't even hear the organ come in at the "I think it's time for a chaaaaiiiaaangeeeeeee" part. Man, that was disappointing. It's definitely a matter of taste, but good keyboards in rock/metal are so few and far between, that it really pisses me off when they bury them underneath a plethora of guitar layers. Keyboards are a huge part of the DT sound and have a quintessential role in making the band sound unique, so more keys please and bring 'em up in the mix.

Out of curiosity, did you like the guitar-dominated mix of Live at Luna Park?

[rumborak]

Well, as said, the CD (which I view as "the release" of the album) is obviously compressed to the level it is for the purpose of being listened to in loud environments and cheap headphones. That has always been the very point of the loudness war, so that you can listen to it (and hear everything) in your car or that USB speaker at work.

It's a shame music is mastered for the lowest common denominator these days, at the expense of sounding good. More complex niche music such as DT's shouldn't be treated like that.
The drum sound of DT12 is better on the HDTracks version (the snare doesn't sound too bad on that version), but on the album, you can't make out anything. BTFW is the only DT/MM drum mix that I've considered even good (and I think it's great). If you're going to unleash the beast, let us hear it!

Same here. BTFW has the best DT drum sound in a loooong time.

The Greatest Hit album, I don't think they improved anything. As said, the guitars are overbearing, and the rerecorded drums sound out of place.

[TheGreatPretender]

The Greatest Hit album, I don't think they improved anything. As said, the guitars are overbearing, and the rerecorded drums sound out of place.

John Petrucci puts the "bear" in "overbearing guitars"! 

Seriously though, I don't think they're overbearing. I think they're just right. Like I said, on I&W, I always felt like they were buried underneath the keyboards, and a lot of the riffs got lost behind the lead keyboard melodies.

[Sycsa]

the rerecorded drums sound out of place.

AFAIK, they weren't re-recorded, they just replaced the kick and snare samples. The toms and cymbals sound the same.

[rumborak]

And that's probably why it sounds out of place

[hefdaddy42]

And that's probably why it sounds out of place

Yeah, those remasters sound like crap.