"Saved by the EPIC?"

[bl5150]

This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time 

[Rodni Demental]

Just some thoughts and opinions after reading through this thead:
- Bohemian Rhapsody is much shorter than it feels and much shorter than I realised.
- A Mind Beside Itself may not be an epic, but it does have enough defining characteristics to fill that role. If the 3 individual songs that it's comprised of weren't complete in and of themselves, it'd be less clear cut. After all, it takes you on a journey, has recurring themes. It's in the structure of a suite that makes up a bigger piece. And not that it is, but if it was a whole piece on the album, there'd obviously be no question because it's not exactly abnormal compared to the other 'epics'.
- I never really thought about it, but Finally Free does seem to almost be an epic actually. It's not as long as some, and doesn't have clearly defined sections, but it does have clear changes in mood and devlops into a fairly grand piece if not epic.
- 6DOIT may be a song, and SFAM may be an album. But 6DOIT almost feels like a bit of a 'cool down' for the band after SFAM. It's obviously got it's similarities, especially with it's compositional process with the lyricists taking on different roles from different perspectives to relate to greater theme. Six Degrees as a song, is even longer than some albums if you consider the length of your average half hour pop album. So to me, if a song or suite can be longer than some albums out there, at the very least it could surely be considered a mini album in some regards, especially if it's in the structure of a suite with clearly defined sections. Also, considering the similarities, 6DOIT being an epic, how can it not be considered a mini concept album and yet SFAM, being a concept album can't be considered a giant 'epic'?
- The 12SS might not be considered and 'epic' per se, but in the grand scheme of things, it's one of the most ambitious and epic "pieces" they've ever created in terms of scope and scale. It's hard to say, but I get the feeling MP would have called it an epic as a whole.

Art itself is not subjective.  Interpretation of the meaning of art is subjective.  As Hef said, the band has declared unequivocally what SDOIT is.  That is objective and is "cut and dried."  Your interpretation of what the song means to you or how it makes you feel is up to you.

Well yes.. and no..  I dunno if I can agree that art itself is not subjective. Maybe not always, but in many cases an artist themselves might not clearly know what it means. Or they've drawn their inspiration from abstract influences that even they don't understand, the artist themselves might just be interpreting an impression they got, then finding a way to express that. Art's almost never clear cut unless the artist has made it very clear what their intention was. A lot of the time the artist intention is for the art to be open to interpretation, for the viewer or listener to evoke their own meaning from the content. And what about songs where the writer just writes in metaphors and abstract imagery? (eg. Under A Glass Moon). It might have a clear meaning for the writer, but that message hasn't been made clear enough for the listener, so they have no option but to interpret their own subjective meaning. I would also further speculate that the subjective interpretation comes first and foremost, before any accurate objective meaning can be established. Even vice versa from the composers perspective in some cases.

[chaossystem]

This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time 

What's GMD?

[TheGreatPretender]

What's GMD?

General Music Discussion, I would guess.

[chaossystem]

Maybe that WOULD be less confusing!

[Skeever]

The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.

[TheGreatPretender]

The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.

Or AMBI.

[TAC]

This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time 

I'll check myself in in the morning.

[jjrock88]

I'll see you there Tim, this thread gave me a headache too

[BlobVanDam]

SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion. Hef is right on all things.




Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

[RoeDent]

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion.

Finally! Someone talking sense on this issue! I know they're different artists, but this also applies to The Incident, The Whirlwind, Garden of Dreams, Thick As A Brick and Tubular Bells, to name just five more. No matter how much you try to deny it. It is the solid truth, full stop.

[wolfking]

The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.

I pretty much agree with this.

I'm not saying I'm right though cause the band obviously wrote the piece and it is intended to be a single song, but yeah, it's nothing like 8VM or even ACOS which feel much more cohesive.  Perhaps I need to listen to the song in a different frame of mind, maybe I'm missing something.

[King Postwhore]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

[hefdaddy42]

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Sig'd.

[King Postwhore]

That just bought you a "You're a f&*(&^% stupid bitch, get out of jail free" card Blob.

[hefdaddy42]

lol

[BlobVanDam]

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Sig'd.

I'm honoured, sir.

[rumborak]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....

[King Postwhore]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....

As I always do sir on this side of the forum myself.

[hefdaddy42]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

Dammit, king, this is DT-side.  This is where we get involved about stuff. 

lol

[chaossystem]

The following are just MY opinions and observations, so don't think you have to take any of it seriously.

I don't think "Six Degrees" (disc two) counts as what I meant by an "epic," because it is made up of eight separate and individual tracks that are all under ten minutes long, and while they all DO revolve around a theme, they are NOT "chapters" in a "story."
I see it as more of a concept album along the lines of most of Alan Parsons' albums, such as the first one "Tales of Mystery and Imagination," in which the songs were all based on stories and poems by Edgar Allan Poe.
Or some of Pink Floyd's concepts, such as "Animals" and  "The Wall."
But not a concept like SFaM, or Queensryche's "Operation:MindCrime," both of which have a more less cohesive story line.
However, "Losing Time/Grand Finale" does kind of tie the whole thing together in much the same way that "Eclipse" ties "Dark Side of the Moon" together.

On the OTHER hand, I think that "The Glass Prison" and "The Great Debate" could be considered epics, or at least mini-epics, because they are both well OVER ten minutes long.

[wolfking]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I don't really, it's mainly because we could see a thread started by chaossystem hit the 100 replies before getting locked! 

[bosk1]

The following are just MY opinions and observations, so don't think you have to take any of it seriously.

I don't think "Six Degrees" (disc two) counts as what I meant by an "epic," because it is made up of eight separate and individual tracks that are all under ten minutes long, and while they all DO revolve around a theme, they are NOT "chapters" in a "story."
I see it as more of a concept album along the lines of most of Alan Parsons' albums, such as the first one "Tales of Mystery and Imagination," in which the songs were all based on stories and poems by Edgar Allan Poe.
Or some of Pink Floyd's concepts, such as "Animals" and  "The Wall."

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion. Hef is right

[chaossystem]

Okay.

I was just trying to present another way of looking at it.

[Skeever]

I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

[erwinrafael]

I always listen to it in one sitting because the individual parts do not have satisfying endings.

[chaossystem]

I like About to Crash-and the reprise-as well as War/Test, and Solitary Shell as stand-alone tracks, but the rest of it is fairly weak.

But I also like the Score version, because I think this "song"  in it's over-all presentation sounds better in a live setting with a live orchestra.

[chaossystem]

Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....

As I always do sir on this side of the forum myself.

You don't HAVE to give a flyin' , but why does it have to be MORBID???

Can't you just have a little fun with it???

[TheGreatPretender]

I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

THANK YOU!  Something we agree on!

Though I don't mind it on Score as much, mainly because of the orchestra and that the second set of Score is the kind of thing that I kind of have to commit myself to sit down and watch anyway (like Gone With The Wind or another long and heavy movie that you can't digest too often).

[The Letter M]

I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

Symphonies on albums only work that way because the movements within them have those pauses between them, unlike "Six Degrees" which is one continuous song with no real stops in it. Some epics do that, some epics don't. If you look at songs like "Supper's Ready" or "Close To The Edge", they have movements but they're still continuous pieces. But some epics like those by Rush, like "2112", have some full-stops between movements, allowing for breathes and breaks in-between.

I liked that they made "Six Degrees" one track on Score, just to be definitive about its identity as one whole piece. The same was done with Transatlantic's "The Whirlwind", which was featured as one track taking up the whole first disc on two live albums by the band.

Besides, I think if it really bothered someone that a track was so long, they could take it into Audacity and cut it up, save the individual WAV files and later convert those into MP3s for iPod use, or burn the WAVs to a CD-r. Then again, most digital players have quick and simple tracking scrolls that allow a user to scroll through a track fairly quickly, at least a LOt quicker than a CD or Cassette would allow. I'm sure it was a lot easier in the days of vinyl where you could just drop the needle where you wanted it and be right in the middle of, say, "Karn Evil 9" or "Thick As A Brick".

-Marc.

[chaossystem]

They actually do have pauses between at least some of the parts on the Score version of Six Degrees.
There are moments where the band and the orchestra stop playing, and all you hear is the audience.

As for some of the other bands' epics that were mentioned: I usually only listen to the first one or two parts of things like 2112 or Karn Evil 9, because after that they get bogged down in a lot of boring lyrical and musical ideas, and cease-for me at least-to be interesting.

[chaossystem]

I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

I don't know if it was a conscious decision or not, but I just checked it on Wikepedia, and most of Alan Parsons' and Pink Floyd's concept albums are about the same length as Six Degrees, Disc Two.
In fact, It's about a minute or two LONGER than those other albums.
So, for that reason alone, I think it could be considered a FULL-LENGTH concept album.
But, of course, I'm aware that most-or at least half of you anyway-prefer to think of it as one 42-minute song, so there we are...

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

But it's not an album. It's a song on an album. The length is irrelevant.

[The Letter M]

But it's not an album. It's a song on an album. The length is irrelevant.

This. Had the song been released separately, or the album in parts (with Disc 1 coming out one part of the year, then Disc 2 later on in the year), it might be considered an album (although you'd have people fighting over whether or not an album released in two parts should be considered one album or two - see Ayreon's The Universal Migrator, Beardfish's Sleeping In Traffic, Pain of Salvation's Road Salt, or Justin Timberlake's The 20/20 Experience).

And I agree - album length is irrelevant. An album's (physical) medium, and therefore length, shouldn't determine whether or not something is simply an EP or an Album, but more so the content itself. Albums in the 70's were only 35-50 minutes because that's how much a single vinyl could hold. Double albums were then only about 70-85 minutes in length, but single CDs these days can hold up to 80 minutes, so a double album in the 70's could be considered a single album today (and vice versa).

Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

Now, there are plenty of single-song works that ARE single albums with no other songs, but that was the intention of the artist. Look at Jethro Tull's Thick As A Brick, originally intended to be one song on the album, but vinyl had to limit their intention since the 40-minute piece had to be cut in half. Does cutting it in half make fans think it's two songs when it's really one whole piece? Why should the limitations of the medium define the music when the artist themselves explain their intentions?

Echolyn have a song that is just one whole album, Mei, which is a 50-minute piece with no other divisions on the CD, but had it been released on vinyl or even cassette, it would have to have been split up.

TL;DR - Physical limitations of the medium shouldn't have any implication on the artists' intention and meaning of a piece's status, condition, or structure. If a song was meant to be a song, then it's a song. If an album was meant to be one whole album (and not seen as two or more parts of a whole), then it's one whole album.

-Marc.

[TheGreatPretender]

Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.