The Benefits of Home Ownership?

[Grappler]

So... I get the premise, but in those plants like at GE where the NON-union shops were paid more, had a better safety record, and were more productive, did they reimburse the "fee"?

The point is to keep workers from getting a free ride (collectively bargained benefits without being a dues-paying union member).  So if a shop is unionized, the union represents all of the shop's workers, not just the ones who are members. 

If it's a non-union shop, then they probably wouldn't be collecting dues or fair-share fees to begin with. 

[Stadler]

The point is to keep workers from getting a free ride (collectively bargained benefits without being a dues-paying union member).  So if a shop is unionized, the union represents all of the shop's workers, not just the ones who are members. 

If it's a non-union shop, then they probably wouldn't be collecting dues or fair-share fees to begin with.

I get all that.  I understand it.  But what if the benefits and what not are LESS than what they would have been without the union?   

Let's not assume that because the union is involved, it's some grand victory for the working class.   I've seen just as many instances where the union was a roadblock.

[El Barto]

I get all that.  I understand it.  But what if the benefits and what not are LESS than what they would have been without the union?   

Let's not assume that because the union is involved, it's some grand victory for the working class.   I've seen just as many instances where the union was a roadblock.

Why would you assume that the benefits would still be better were it not for the union shop two blocks down? I'd bet that the exact opposite is true, myself.

[Grappler]

I get all that.  I understand it.  But what if the benefits and what not are LESS than what they would have been without the union?   

Then they get the plain old non-union benefits 

Non union shop = non-union benefits.
Union shop = union bargained benefits

Now, if you're asking what would happen if a union member took a job at a non-union shop?  I guess that depends on the employer.  My wife was in the UFCW union when she worked at a grocery store as a teenager.   When she went to college, she transferred jobs to the same brand of store, but the store 2 hours south was non-union.  They agreed to pay her the union wages, but told her not to tell her coworkers, since none of them were being paid that wage.

I don't see a scenario where any fee would be refunded.  It either applies, or it doesn't.  A union shop isn't going to carry a separate benefit package for non-union employees.  Those employees would get the union's health and retirement package, so they collect the fee. 

That was the point of the lawsuit - Janus didn't like that the public employee union was taking his fee and then donating money to political campaigns that he would never personally donate to.  In all reality, it was a union-breaking tactic funded by a Republican think-tank.  If they couldn't break the union contract, they would work to take away a portion of the income (fair-share fees).

[Nick]

I get HOA's purpose is to maintain / grow property values.  But how the hell does leaving a garage door open affect property values?  That seem like they're more about control.

Yup. I'm sure some are good, but legally everything is there to let some people feel like neighborhood fascists behind the guise of doing something good.

When we moved two years ago, 75% of my motivation was getting out of our HOA. And with that being our first home, and learning more about it since, here is where my real issue lies. In most states, including here in PA, the HOA documentation is an afterthought. When you are browsing homes you will know that one is in an HOA, and generally the monthly fee and a vague outline of what they provide. However the seller is under no obligation to provide the full comprehensive paperwork on the HOA, nor are the HOA themselves. Basically you spend however many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then at closing when it would be far too late to back out you're presented with the paperwork with no real choice but to sign up for the shitty ride you're about to take.

[jingle.boy]

Yup. I'm sure some are good, but legally everything is there to let some people feel like neighborhood fascists behind the guise of doing something good.

When we moved two years ago, 75% of my motivation was getting out of our HOA. And with that being our first home, and learning more about it since, here is where my real issue lies. In most states, including here in PA, the HOA documentation is an afterthought. When you are browsing homes you will know that one is in an HOA, and generally the monthly fee and a vague outline of what they provide. However the seller is under no obligation to provide the full comprehensive paperwork on the HOA, nor are the HOA themselves. Basically you spend however many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then at closing when it would be far too late to back out you're presented with the paperwork with no real choice but to sign up for the shitty ride you're about to take.

This is the part I don't get.  Why?  Why can't you just tell them to pound sand?  What legal standing do they have that you as a buyer are required to do so?

[Stadler]

Why would you assume that the benefits would still be better were it not for the union shop two blocks down? I'd bet that the exact opposite is true, myself.

Maybe, maybe not. But...

Then they get the plain old non-union benefits 

Non union shop = non-union benefits.
Union shop = union bargained benefits

Now, if you're asking what would happen if a union member took a job at a non-union shop?  I guess that depends on the employer.  My wife was in the UFCW union when she worked at a grocery store as a teenager.   When she went to college, she transferred jobs to the same brand of store, but the store 2 hours south was non-union.  They agreed to pay her the union wages, but told her not to tell her coworkers, since none of them were being paid that wage.

I don't see a scenario where any fee would be refunded.  It either applies, or it doesn't.  A union shop isn't going to carry a separate benefit package for non-union employees.  Those employees would get the union's health and retirement package, so they collect the fee. 

That was the point of the lawsuit - Janus didn't like that the public employee union was taking his fee and then donating money to political campaigns that he would never personally donate to.  In all reality, it was a union-breaking tactic funded by a Republican think-tank.  If they couldn't break the union contract, they would work to take away a portion of the income (fair-share fees).

...I think you were both sort of missing my point. It doesn't matter if a shop is union or not to my point.  The union was trying to exact a fee from non-union workers on the assumption that they cut the best possible deal, and therefore the non-union person is riding coat-tails. And all I'm saying is "that's a faulty assumption".   Some companies will dig in with a union and play hard ball on things they don't have to because it's the union, and conversely, will sometimes grant concessions where they know that it's in their best interest to give more and keep the shop non-unionized. 

[El Barto]

This is the part I don't get.  Why?  Why can't you just tell them to pound sand?  What legal standing do they have that you as a buyer are required to do so?

The rule of law. In most US states the HOA is incorporated into the deed. You cannot buy the house without buying in. You could back out, of course, but as Nick said, at the time of signing that would be, eh, awkward.

The only exception is if the HOA was formed after you bought the house. As an owner you have the right to opt out of a newly formed HOA, and the deed to your house will not have it included, even once it's sold. The new owner could, if they were idiots, opt in at that point, and it would then become part of the house in perpetuity.

[hunnus2000]

The rule of law. In most US states the HOA is incorporated into the deed. You cannot buy the house without buying in. You could back out, of course, but as Nick said, at the time of signing that would be, eh, awkward.

The only exception is if the HOA was formed after you bought the house. As an owner you have the right to opt out of a newly formed HOA, and the deed to your house will not have it included, even once it's sold. The new owner could, if they were idiots, opt in at that point, and it would then become part of the house in perpetuity.

.

When we bought our house in Dallas, the HOA was voluntary, 35.00 a year and it wasn't a requirement. I would never buy a house that required mandatory HOA dues. Too many horror stories.

[Orbert]

When you are browsing homes you will know that one is in an HOA, and generally the monthly fee and a vague outline of what they provide. However the seller is under no obligation to provide the full comprehensive paperwork on the HOA, nor are the HOA themselves. Basically you spend however many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then at closing when it would be far too late to back out you're presented with the paperwork with no real choice but to sign up for the shitty ride you're about to take.

This makes no sense to me.  That's like signing a contract without being allowed to read it first.  How can you sign a mortgage for a house and not know all the requirements?  And if the HOA is required, and has rules (which they all do), then those are requirements of the mortgage.  If they're not going to disclose them until after I sign, then fuck them, I'm not signing.  Of course in my case, I never would get that far because as soon as I find out there's an HOA involved, I'm looking elsewhere, and this is exactly why.

[cramx3]

Gf somehow broke the handle to the toilet bowl.  Should be an easy fix, but ya know, its always something 

[Grappler]

Gf somehow broke the handle to the toilet bowl.  Should be an easy fix, but ya know, its always something 

If you mean the flush handle, it is an easy fix.  Menards or a hardware store should sell a universal repair kit.  You can buy the handle you like (basic or fancy) and then the universal kit would have the internal part that connects to the flush valve.  Open the top of the tank and see what is connected to the handle and then you'll know what you need to buy.

[Jamesman42]

When we moved two years ago, 75% of my motivation was getting out of our HOA. And with that being our first home, and learning more about it since, here is where my real issue lies. In most states, including here in PA, the HOA documentation is an afterthought. When you are browsing homes you will know that one is in an HOA, and generally the monthly fee and a vague outline of what they provide. However the seller is under no obligation to provide the full comprehensive paperwork on the HOA, nor are the HOA themselves. Basically you spend however many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then at closing when it would be far too late to back out you're presented with the paperwork with no real choice but to sign up for the shitty ride you're about to take.

Disgusting.

[Cool Chris]

Something seems amiss here. When I was president of our HOA, any time one of the homes went up for sale the seller's agent was required to get the HOA docs from me to forward to the buyer's agent. And I seem to recall when we bought our house we had to sign a document stating that we received a copy of the HOA docs. Maybe laws vary by state?

[Grappler]

Something seems amiss here. When I was president of our HOA, any time one of the homes went up for sale the seller's agent was required to get the HOA docs from me to forward to the buyer's agent. And I seem to recall when we bought our house we had to sign a document stating that we received a copy of the HOA docs. Maybe laws vary by state?

This was our experience too, buying in a neighborhood with an HOA.  We signed to confirm that we received HOA documents and the seller's attorney dropped them off at our home after we closed (he lives in the neighborhood). 

Maybe, maybe not. But...

...I think you were both sort of missing my point. It doesn't matter if a shop is union or not to my point.  The union was trying to exact a fee from non-union workers on the assumption that they cut the best possible deal, and therefore the non-union person is riding coat-tails. And all I'm saying is "that's a faulty assumption".   Some companies will dig in with a union and play hard ball on things they don't have to because it's the union, and conversely, will sometimes grant concessions where they know that it's in their best interest to give more and keep the shop non-unionized. 

I get your point now.  I can only say that my dad was in a trade union (HVAC / pipefitter) and most of my clients are labor unions (public and trade).  I'm very pro-labor, though I understand how they can be pains in the ass during negotiations (the Chicago Teachers Union is one of my clients, and they are more of a political activist union than anything else...and solely seem to exist to suck whatever they can out of the city of Chicago as a concession).  Despite the hardball tactics, I do believe that they are needed and I have seen first-hand why.

[jingle.boy]

The rule of law. In most US states the HOA is incorporated into the deed. 

This is absolutely bonkers to me.  I don't know how condo fees work up here, but I would never have thought in a million years that they'd be part of the registered deed.

[El Barto]

Something seems amiss here. When I was president of our HOA, any time one of the homes went up for sale the seller's agent was required to get the HOA docs from me to forward to the buyer's agent. And I seem to recall when we bought our house we had to sign a document stating that we received a copy of the HOA docs. Maybe laws vary by state?

Definitely vary by state. It doesn't surprise me that your state might be more protectionist than, say, Texas.   

Reddit is full of people who tried like hell to avoid buying into an HOA only to find once they move that they were unsuccessful (and also full of HOA busybodies insisting that only trailer trash and undesirables would not want to be in an HOA  ).

[cramx3]

If you mean the flush handle, it is an easy fix.  Menards or a hardware store should sell a universal repair kit.  You can buy the handle you like (basic or fancy) and then the universal kit would have the internal part that connects to the flush valve.  Open the top of the tank and see what is connected to the handle and then you'll know what you need to buy.

Yup thanks, got a basic one off amazon that'll be here today.  I'm admittingly not handy, but I actually replaced this once before so I've got this 

[hefdaddy42]

When we bought our house in Dallas, the HOA was voluntary, 35.00 a year and it wasn't a requirement. I would never buy a house that required mandatory HOA dues. Too many horror stories.

$35.00 a year?  What was the point?  What could that provide?

[jingle.boy]

$35.00 a year?  What was the point?  What could that provide?

fireworks for July 4th party?

[El Barto]

fireworks for July 4th party?

Some of the nicer ones put on a fine show.

[cramx3]

$35 doesn't even get you one really good firework, thats like enough for a pack of fountains you get at the grocery store.

[El Barto]

$35 doesn't even get you one really good firework, thats like enough for a pack of fountains you get at the grocery store.

Grocery store? Really? Down here it's outside of city limits, and only about 4 weeks per year. I suppose the fire risk is very different, though.

[cramx3]

Grocery store? Really? Down here it's outside of city limits, and only about 4 weeks per year. I suppose the fire risk is very different, though.

It's a relatively new thing in NJ.  It's been maybe 5 years or so since they changed the laws and small fireworks became legal, so you see even the grocery stores here sell the basic packs with a bunch of the small grade fireworks that don't really shoot into the air much or at all.

You still have to go into PA if you want the real fireworks.  It's still illegal to go there and bring them back, but it's quite normal and common to do so even if all the rules.  I expect my neighborhood to be overrun by the PA style fireworks in the coming weeks.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a relatively new thing in NJ.  It's been maybe 5 years or so since they changed the laws and small fireworks became legal, so you see even the grocery stores here sell the basic packs with a bunch of the small grade fireworks that don't really shoot into the air much or at all.

You still have to go into PA if you want the real fireworks.  It's still illegal to go there and bring them back, but it's quite normal and common to do so even if all the rules.  I expect my neighborhood to be overrun by the PA style fireworks in the coming weeks.

That's kind of how it is here in North Carolina now.  You can get fireworks (kind of) in grocery stores, but for the really gnarly shit, you have to go over the border to South Carolina.

[TAC]

I seriously don't get fireworks. Like bang yeah!

I mean, a 4th of July fireworks show is fine, but some bozo in his back yard? Whoopie!

[hefdaddy42]

I seriously don't get fireworks. Like bang yeah!

I mean, a 4th of July fireworks show is fine, but some bozo in his back yard? Whoopie!

So, how long have you been a godless communist?

[TAC]

 

[cramx3]

From no taste to no fun 

I quite love fireworks myself.  It's really fun, and I don't know how to explain it other than the bangs and lights attract me.  I had a blast lighting my own fireworks over the years, but I've greatly slowed down the last 5 years or so and almost never buy or light them off.  I guess I just don't cross the PA border much these days to make a stop worth it.  Just got some coupons for Phantom Fireworks in the mail which reminded me of them, but I don't see it happening this year. 

[El Barto]

Celebrate the independence of your nation by blowing up a small part of it

I used to buy them all the time just to have throughout the year. Never know when a packet of jumping jacks might save the day. Haven't done it in years, though.

[hefdaddy42]

Like many other things that plenty of people enjoy, I understand the appeal of small arms fireworks, but it holds no sway over me.  If I never did that again, it would be fine.

But a really good fireworks show is awesome.  Give me that any day.

[Orbert]

I went to a New Year's Eve party a few years back, and our host Mike (bassist for the band I was in) had acquired a pro-quality firework.  One firework, singular.  Not a bottle rocket, or Roman candle, or even any of the mid-grade things you can buy at the places along Interstate 80, but an actual firework like a town might shoot a couple hundred of for the 4th of July.

At midnight, we all went outside to the street in front of the house, and Mike set up the firework and lit it.  It was actually pretty cool, shot a hundred feet into the air, or maybe 200 (I'm not good at judging distances) and it exploded, nice reds and greens, filling the sky like an actual 4th of July firework, only a bit more impressive because it was so close.  I mean, we were right there, and it was huge and bright.  Yay!

And then we all went back inside and jammed some more.

[hefdaddy42]

 

[cramx3]

I went to a New Year's Eve party a few years back, and our host Mike (bassist for the band I was in) had acquired a pro-quality firework.  One firework, singular.  Not a bottle rocket, or Roman candle, or even any of the mid-grade things you can buy at the places along Interstate 80, but an actual firework like a town might shoot a couple hundred of for the 4th of July.

At midnight, we all went outside to the street in front of the house, and Mike set up the firework and lit it.  It was actually pretty cool, shot a hundred feet into the air, or maybe 200 (I'm not good at judging distances) and it exploded, nice reds and greens, filling the sky like an actual 4th of July firework, only a bit more impressive because it was so close.  I mean, we were right there, and it was huge and bright.  Yay!

And then we all went back inside and jammed some more.

Sounds exactly like the kind of thing I'd buy in I80 (in PA).  Those big singular tubes. One big fire work, costs usually around $50 (although they often have BOGO deals).   This is really what I was alluding to when the $35 amount was brought up, that can't even buy one singular big fire work.

[Orbert]

I've never been to one of those fireworks stores, but I guess I was assuming that they weren't the kind like a city or municipality would shoot off for its official 4th of July celebration.  I mean, those are "pro" quality.  That's why I was wondering how Mike even got ahold of one.  If all he did was pick one up over the border (they're illegal for private use in Illinois) then that's a little less impressive.  But it was still pretty cool.