Octavarium - 10 Years

[King Postwhore]

Exactly.  He's in the minority of saying that and I believe he is wrong.  Now not liking the song I get.

[Frank]

I guess we just have different operational definitions of what "rightness" and "wrongness" entail. Or we have the same definition with opposite opinions as to how it should be used.

I just fundamentally disagree that you can so easily tell a movie is "well crafted" and that the degree of such craftsmanship dictates how "good" or "bad" a movie is. I think it's a lot more complicated than that, and that richer and more inclusive discussions are possible when we throw away repressive fallacies like argumentum ad populum.

For example, perhaps we can shift the discussions towards how "well crafted" the song Octavarium is, and how that relates to a song like Illumination Theory. I remember a lot of people on this forum were upset by the transition from the orchestral section to Myung's bass. How does the transition from Someone Like Him to Medicate compare to that, for example, or does my question rest on unstable assumptions?

[bosk1]

I don't remember reading that anyone was "upset" by the transition in Illumination Theory.  Some just did not like it (myself included).  So, yes, I think your question does "rest on unstable assumptions." 

For me, there is a big difference in the two transitions you mentioned.  In Octavarium, each transition between movements ratchets the song up a notch in intensity.  To this day, I still consider it quite a feat that the band was able to write such a long composition that unwaveringly continues to build in intensity from start to finish.  With Illumination Theory, the transition you mentioned stops the song's momentum dead in its tracks, which is quite jarring despite the fact that the transition itself is relatively smooth.  I think for a lot of folks, that is why the transition you mention in Octavarium has never been a problem, whereas the transition in Illumination Theory is difficult for many to adjust to.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

A good album, accompanied by a great live album. When I think 8VM, I immediately think Score, which is my favorite live DT release.

[Frank]

For me, there is a big difference in the two transitions you mentioned.  In Octavarium, each transition between movements ratchets the song up a notch in intensity.  To this day, I still consider it quite a feat that the band was able to write such a long composition that unwaveringly continues to build in intensity from start to finish.

I absolutely, 100% could not agree more.

[Scorpion]

As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess.  I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs.  It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material.  Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other.  I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge.  I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.

Wow, I disagree with almost all of that.  There is very little that is disjointed about the song.  The parts really go together very well.  From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections.  For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.

Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.

Well, sorry, but that's a really dumb thing to say that has nothing to do with my post.  People are free to like or dislike whatever.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is with calling Octavarium "disjointed" and saying full circle is "pulling random words out of thin air."   Both statements are incorrect.  But that doesn't somehow limit his freedom to like or dislike the song as he chooses.  Get over yourself.

Not really though. Because what one perceives as disjointed is an opinion, not a fact. So to say that somebody is wrong about having the opinion that something is disjointed in his/her eyes, that does come across as slightly high-and-mighty, even though I get that that wasn't your intention.

[mrrct]

Thank you Frank and Scorpion for your defenses and your understanding of the difference between opinion and fact.  I specifically said that I find Octavarium to be a disjointed mess, not that it universally is one.  I am far from the only person who holds this opinion.  Several of my friends who have followed the band for over twenty years do not hold the song (or album, for that matter) in particularly high regard, it's just that they are not members of this forum and do not post.  I think that some of the posters here have a deeper musical background than others and feel the need to look down on those of us who are not musicians and only fans.  I have read threads from this forum for a long time, and although I only started posting recently, I have seen countless opinions that I disagree with strongly. I do not criticize any of the people here, however, because I recognize my musical background pales in comparison to many of the posters, and I may not be able to express myself well enough.  More importantly, though, I do not want to come across as a dick.

When I challenged Bosk to enlighten me, I was not trying to antagonize him.  If he could defend his position well enough, maybe he could change mine to the point that I no longer found Octavarium to be a disjointed mess, but just didn't like the song.  Instead, he ignored my post and continues to insult me and call my opinion wrong, while trying to bait me on other threads.  I've come to the conclusion that he is just a person that gets off belittling other people to boost his own self-esteem.  If he did answer me, he would probably only copy and paste the Wikipedia page describing the song.  Now I am antagonizing him.

[mrrct]

Before Bosk and Zook correct me, I did once have a snide remark about 12 Within Temptation North American concerts not being enough for them on the WT thread.  I don't want to give them the opportunity to rub something else in my face.

[King Postwhore]

Hey, and I'm cool that you think that.  We all have opinions but to say that opinions can't be wrong is silly.  I've had opinions that in the end I was wrong.  I was wrong!

I've been one of those guys that believes that bands purposely have harsh transitions.  There is no right or wrong and like you say it's a personal taste but I do agree that some do come off weird.  I just think you're off on this one and are in the minority.

Hey but opinions right!?  I'm just glad that we all have that interest in music and good debates come out of it.

[Dave_Manchester]

Kingshmegland - I know you were not being completely serious in your earlier posts (re: Octavarium being a "good" song and "95%" of fans holding that opinion), but I do want to have it noted that if you played the song Octavarium to 1000 people, I'd imagine more than half would find it 25 minutes of widdly and preposterous tedium. You may be right that 95% of DT fans love it but that proves nothing beyond the notion that Octavarium is an excellent example of the kind of music DT fans tend to like. DT fans are mercifully not the world. 

I like the song quite a bit but I feel the same as those who find it to be an awkwardly strung-together piece, with long stretches of boredom, and the lyrics to Full Circle are distractingly bad (I mention that because almost all song lyrics are 5th-rate writing but generally they don't interfere with enjoyment of the song. Full Circle is an exception, the writing is just so childish). When the song is good, it is absolutely staggering, but to my ears there are not enough good moments to make it a top 20 DT song.

I agree completely with your very last post though, it all makes for a good exchange of opinions.   

[King Postwhore]

Oh I'm not talking a person who doesn't know DT.  I'm talking  prog rock fans. 

I think you and I know outside of this realm, most wouldn't sit through it.  Maybe I confused other by not stating that.

I just assumed people on this Forum like prog.   It would be weird if they were not.

[Dublagent66]

Octavarium the song?  Yeah the hell.  Octavarium the album?  Eh...not so much.

[wolfking]

Magic album, even more magical title track.

[Lucien]

I get a kick when people get upset about objective.  Were talking "LOTR" here of music.  Not "The Room" of music.

I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it.  You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.

You can't compare music and movies though.

The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.

[Grizz]

Holy shit, 10 years? I remember hearing this album on the CD that my dad's friend burned for him while driving to soccer practice.

[King Postwhore]

I get a kick when people get upset about objective.  Were talking "LOTR" here of music.  Not "The Room" of music.

I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it.  You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.

You can't compare music and movies though.

The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.

Sure you can.   People get obsessed with lyric.  I see it all the time. Look at Dog Years by Rush.  A lot if people hated it because of the lyrisc.  I still like the tune a bunch.

[Lucien]

I get a kick when people get upset about objective.  Were talking "LOTR" here of music.  Not "The Room" of music.

I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it.  You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.

You can't compare music and movies though.

The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.

Sure you can.   People get obsessed with lyric.  I see it all the time. Look at Dog Years by Rush.  A lot if people hated it because of the lyrisc.  I still like the tune a bunch.

The point is that it's the only thing you can compare them with. If it's an instrumental, suddenly music becomes a lot less objective, if at all

[bosk1]

Instead, he ignored my post and continues to insult me and call my opinion wrong, while trying to bait me on other threads.  I've come to the conclusion that he is just a person that gets off belittling other people to boost his own self-esteem.

No one insulted you, baited you, or belittled you.  But if you have problems with people simply because they don't agree with your posts, I suggest you find a more constructive way to deal with it besides you yourself baiting. 

[manticore999]

Didn't like the album when it came out and still don't really care for it.  The title track is a snooze-fest, taking forever to get past the 'ambient - aren't we just like Pink Floyd' part and really kick in.  I lose interest or fall asleep before that happens.  The rest of the album, for me, is just as 'skippable'.  I prefer to just forget this was ever released.

[Stadler]

How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium.  We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it.  Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song?  I think not.  there are many other DT songs I can say that about.  That's my point.  He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song.  I think the majority think he is wrong.  The majority loves the song.  So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured.  If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.

This idea seems to come up a lot in these types of threads, but it is still wrong:  that 1 or 10 or 100 people share the same opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion.   The other tricky (and also just as wrong) thing is when people use measurable, quantifiable things as surrogates for their opinion.  There probably IS some quantifiable standard for measuring whether LOTR is "more well made" than "The Room", but that's not opinion anymore, unless we all agree that that standard is accepted as the standard for what is a "good" film versus a "bad" film.  I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, though.

I'm sorry if some of this comes off as very pedantic, but it is important to me, because I see my (now) 14-year-old experimenting with music and movies, and figuring out what she likes and doesn't, and I don't want her to grow up thinking she has to like something because someone else does, and (conversely) disrespecting others because they don't like what she does.  I see her lose herself in her One Direction or Ed Sheeran every bit as much as I lose myself in Dream Theater or Genesis.  And isn't that what music (art) is supposed to be about?   There are only two rules I have with her on music: we talk about (some) of the lyrics whether she wants to or not, and if she wants me to buy her a song or an album with a cover on it, she has to listen to the original.  Other than that... 

[Lucien]

I still don't see how you can compare movies with music.

[dream416]

Till I saw this thread.....I hadn't listened to this album in a few years.
So I decided to give it a spin & I must admit this album is quite fantastic. I didn't
like this album much when it first came out, but have a much different opinion on it now.
Funny how that happens. Not sure why I like this album so much more now than back then,
but I've been spinning quite a bit now.
Cannot believe it's been 10 years already......time flies.

[King Postwhore]

How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium.  We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it.  Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song?  I think not.  there are many other DT songs I can say that about.  That's my point.  He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song.  I think the majority think he is wrong.  The majority loves the song.  So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured.  If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.

This idea seems to come up a lot in these types of threads, but it is still wrong:  that 1 or 10 or 100 people share the same opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion.   The other tricky (and also just as wrong) thing is when people use measurable, quantifiable things as surrogates for their opinion.  There probably IS some quantifiable standard for measuring whether LOTR is "more well made" than "The Room", but that's not opinion anymore, unless we all agree that that standard is accepted as the standard for what is a "good" film versus a "bad" film.  I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, though.

I'm sorry if some of this comes off as very pedantic, but it is important to me, because I see my (now) 14-year-old experimenting with music and movies, and figuring out what she likes and doesn't, and I don't want her to grow up thinking she has to like something because someone else does, and (conversely) disrespecting others because they don't like what she does.  I see her lose herself in her One Direction or Ed Sheeran every bit as much as I lose myself in Dream Theater or Genesis.  And isn't that what music (art) is supposed to be about?   There are only two rules I have with her on music: we talk about (some) of the lyrics whether she wants to or not, and if she wants me to buy her a song or an album with a cover on it, she has to listen to the original.  Other than that...

Pedantic?  Really?  All it states the majority likes something it's usually very good.  It's not conforming to anyone.  When a movie get a great review it's a good bet it's a very good movie.  When it gets panned it's a good bet it's bad.  When it's mixed it's up to you to figure out if you like it or not.  Of course you can make up your own mind but lets be honest.  sometimes we're wrong in our beliefs.  Why can no one admit that?

Can you name an album that is for the majority panned by fans that a few like?  Sure.  Doesn't mean they are right.

[Stadler]

When it's mixed it's up to you to figure out if you like it or not.  Of course you can make up your own mind but lets be honest.  sometimes we're wrong in our beliefs.  Why can no one admit that?

Um... because you're not right?   Honestly, the more you explain yourself, the less I'm convinced it IS me being pedantic.  How can we be wrong in what we like?   Unless of course the standard IS "what the MOST people like" (in which case, fellow DT fans, we've all just conceded that it is a stated fact that DT is less "good" than Justin Beiber, Britney Spears, and The Village People), the fact that someone - including a critic - shares an opinion with you means nowt.

[King Postwhore]

I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  It's not about what you like or not.  This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".

I said he was in the wrong.  I've hear a handful of people say that.  That is such a minority.  Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong.  That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong.  I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  It's not about what you like or not.  This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".

I said he was in the wrong.  I've hear a handful of people say that.  That is such a minority.  Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong.  That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong.  I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.

You're wrong. Opinions cannot be wrong, regardless of how many people hold that opinion. All you can gauge by that is popularity, and popular doesn't mean correct. It gets even more silly when we're discussing something already so incredibly niche like DT, because what is a minority and a majority?

If we were to show Octavarium to 1000 random people, the majority would think it's a disjointed drawn out mess. But what do they know about DT? But does it only count if they're already "DT fans"? Or self confessed "prog fans"? On RYM BCASL and ADTOE are pretty much exactly equal, and it's a much larger sample size than we could muster on DTF. Are they wrong? (I'd agree with them over DTF, but that's not the point). Do only the "real" fans of DTF count? It's creating arbitrary groups.

The problem is that you're defining your own subjective definition to quantify something, and trying to assign an objective measure to it, but it's an invented measure with no direct relevance. You're still just getting opinions.


Now, if we want to just discuss the opinion, I agree the song is amazing, and I believe every single section has musical and lyrical relevance beyond what a lot of people have grasped, but that's just an opinion here. I can't argue that it's more correct than anyone else's.

[ReaPsTA]

This is the first DT album that came out after I became a fan of the band.  My first experience with that new DT CD thrill.

I remember when the "I can feel my body breaking" reprise first happened in TROAE.  The chills were ridiculous.

Some of the songs on the album get a bad rap.  But at its worst, the album is still very well composed and generally enjoyable to listen to.  People rightfully credit DT12 for its tighter song structures, but forget that DT did the same thing here.

Octavarium might be DT's best song.  Even with its long run time, it's amazing how many great things are jammed in there.

It's an album that, in spite of its flaws, is hard not to think of in a fond way.

[King Postwhore]

Yes opinions can. Sure it's what you believe but people can be wrong.  Sorry.  Not changing my mind, right or wrong.

[bl5150]

King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong.

[King Postwhore]

King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong.

I just find it funny that people can't admit that an opinion can be wrong.  If that were the case, we'd live in a perfect world wouldn't we.

[BlobVanDam]

King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong.

I just find it funny that people can't admit that an opinion can be wrong.  If that were the case, we'd live in a perfect world wouldn't we.

What? If opinions could be right or wrong, you could argue them logically and make people change their minds to be right and then we'd live in a perfect world. But opinions are subjective, which is why it's still legal to watch the Fast and the Furious movies. For now....

[King Postwhore]

Well, I'll leave it as we agree to disagree. 


Except for you Blob.  That Fast And The Furious quip put me over the edge.

[Stadler]

I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  It's not about what you like or not.  This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".

I said he was in the wrong.  I've hear a handful of people say that.  That is such a minority.  Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong.  That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong.  Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong.  I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.

Listen, I'm not going to keep repeating, but this is a kind of new point:   BY DEFINITION you're not correct.  If there is a circumstance where there is a "right" and a "wrong", it's not that someone's OPINION is right/wrong, but rather that you are actually talking about a fact.  There probably IS a quantitative measure by which we can judge "disjointed mess", and at that point you're not talking about opinion anymore. 

The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion".   That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal). 

[bosk1]

The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion".   That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal). 

That is precisely why opinions can be wrong.  Facts are objective.  Opinions are not.  However, opinions can and should be based on facts.  Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong.  As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example. 

[BlobVanDam]

The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion".   That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal). 

That is precisely why opinions can be wrong.  Facts are objective.  Opinions are not.  However, opinions can and should be based on facts.  Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong.  As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example. 

Yes, opinions can be wrong if they are based on provable facts (like if your opinion is that man didn't land on the moon), but not all opinions have to be based on facts, especially as we're talking about music here. There is no objectively good or bad music. That's why we're taught music theory to write songs, and not music facts. Pretty sure you've never had to argue about music quality in a court of law.