5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[Stadler]

The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...

They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.

I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.

Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but just curious; is there one fact that points to ANY of that?   Well, except for the first one, since we KNOW it will be "astonishing", because it is called "The Astonishing". 

[MHStrawn]

I thought Portnoy was right....in that (IMO) BC&SL was by far their worst album and the band hadn't done anything innovative or new in years.  I thought a hiatus would have been good as they had been covering well-trodden ground for a while. 

Five years later....I'm not sure it would have helped.  I don't see Portnoy's efforts demonstrating a lot of new ideas.  I think the band itself stilff suffers from the lack of new ideas.  I don't know about others but ADTOE seems a straight rework of I&Ws and DT12 is, yet again, retreading the same areas the band has covered for years. 

That's just my opinion; I'm sure others differ.  What is missing, in any of this, is a real effort to try something new.  You look at Steven Wilson and what he's done over the last 5+ years and you see an artist growing and exploring; I just don't see that with DT.

[King Postwhore]

Would you say that Mike lead them to that style of music on SC & BC&SL?

[SwedishGoose]

Would you say that Mike lead them to that style of music on SC & BC&SL?

Yes I think Mike was very instrumental on the making of the later albums he did with DT. It was not enough of a group effort.
I think Adtoe and DT12 are both way better than SC and BC&SL and hope that the Astonishing is going to be even better.

[Progmetty]

I agree a 100%, I thought we were all on board about that.
I feel like after Octavarium Portnoy had had his fill of what Dream Theater does, it might have subconsciously been his grand epic closure to DT. Then from this point on he was in overdrive, he wanted to put his new musical interests in DT just to keep himself excited and interested in DT and that wasn't really so bad cause it resulted in SC and BC&SL which I like, but are very structurally similar to each other and it made things obvious to me that Portnoy was done when he got interviewed for BC&SL release and instead of being hyped over it like he does with every album when asked about how special it was; he would just say "It's just the next album".

I have not read through all pages of this thread but to answer the main thread question: Portnoy was that right that he needed a hiatus, DT didn't need one and they've made two high quality albums since then that proves it. ADToE and DTDT are definitely better than SC & BC&SL IMO.

[JediKnight1969]

5 years later, was Portnoy right?

Hell no! 

[ariich]

I agree a 100%, I thought we were all on board about that.

We are not.

[SwedishGoose]

The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...

They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.

I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.

Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but just curious; is there one fact that points to ANY of that?   Well, except for the first one, since we KNOW it will be "astonishing", because it is called "The Astonishing".

Well... the fact that it is a double album concept where they have developed a story with characters, maps, events etc. And that they are planning to tell said story through full visuals on the tour seem to indicate that they have put more effort into this than any of the later albums with MP.

MP had/has a preference for writing/recording quickly in the studio.
I don't think that approach would have worked for creating something of this scale.

[matthewmatt]

I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...

[IdoSC]

I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...

We're definitely not sure about it, but personally the telling clues for me are
1. The fact that almost every time DT tackled a heavier style in a way that's not fitting them at all, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP.
2. Adding to the first reason, there was this whole apologetic post by MP on his forum back when BCSL came out, explaining that he thought the original way JLB sang the (what later became) growling section was awkward, then he tried all sorts of combinations and growling styles before settling on the final cut.
3. MP was the most vocal person to talk (in general, but particularly about) about their "inspiration corner"
4. The immediate bands he went on to when contemplating to and actually quitting DT were A7X and Adrenaline Mob, both kinda reminiscent of SC and BCSL's awkward moments (to me at least).
5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.

I'm sure that the other members are not just "sheeps" who blindly followed everything Portnoy said and that it wouldn't have happened if they didn't like it as well, but it really seems to me like he was the main force behind it. I may be wrong, of course.

[ariich]

5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.

I don't know exactly what you mean by awkward heaviness, but I would guess that Build Me Up Break Me Down would surely count?

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...

Whoa, you must be new here. As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

MP obviously held a gun to the entire band's head and forced them to write metal riffs until their fingers bled. He also bought JP his copy of Priest and detuned all of JP's guitars when he wasn't looking. The SC documentary footage was all faked to try and convince you they were complicit. JLB wasn't having the most fun he's ever had in the studio at all. He was fighting back tears at every single moment.

Welcome to DTF.

[ToT-147]

Funny thing not to see any difference at all between one new guy and another with more than 30.000 posts in the forum regarding such a highly debated topic..

But, yeah, welcome to DTF.. And I'm saying it without the irony btw..

SC is my favourite

[jayvee3]

Nah, I don't think Mike was right. Probably right that he needed a break, but this has been discussed ad nauseum.

What I will say however, is that since he left, ADTOE was fresh and a really solid little album, DT I personally really like (even though it doesn't appear too highly regarded around here), and whether The Astonshing is a success or not, they are definitely trying something new, which at least seems to imply that they have an abundance of ideas.

I liked Mike, but i've also enjoyed everything they've done post Mike too. But to each his own I guess..

[Rodni Demental]

I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...

Couldn't agree more. DTs always had that heavy element since the first album. Infact, the first album still has heavier moments than at least half of their discography. Not to mention, JP is the guitar player. It might come as a shock but JP writes and plays his own riffs, MPs input would have involved giving opinions about preferences but at the end of the day, JP wouldn't be writing heavy riffs if he didn't like it. Not to mention, The Enemy Inside might be one of the heaviest songs they've written since Honor Thy Father (imo).

MP obviously held a gun to the entire band's head and forced them to write metal riffs until their fingers bled. He also bought JP his copy of Priest and detuned all of JP's guitars when he wasn't looking. The SC documentary footage was all faked to try and convince you they were complicit. JLB wasn't having the most fun he's ever had in the studio at all. He was fighting back tears at every single moment.

[Darkstarshades]

JP started weightlifting in order to fight back Portnoy's abussive treatment.

[CDrice]

JP started weightlifting in order to fight back Portnoy's abussive treatment.

And In The Presence of Enemies is clearly about JP trying to fight Mike's supremacy.

[jammindude]

I will say this.   

I was mildly curious what MP thought of ADTOE, but two years later I didn't really care what he thought of DT12.   But now, with all this Ravenskill and NOMACS and Nefaryus (sp?) etc, etc...  I've NEVER been more curious as to what he might be thinking about all of it. 

I doubt we'll ever know.

[Darkstarshades]

Going out of joke...
I think it must be pretty hard for him to hear his old band doing stuff without him. Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about, and now he's just one of us, someone waiting.
However, I'm also convinced that he's totally proud and happy with what he's doing, enough to be rather indifferent to DT at this point.

Going back...
Everytime he plays a song with any of his groups, he closes his eyes and pretends it's a new DT song, and JP is there, as well as JM, JR and JLB. After the song ends, he just comes back into reality.
At the end of shows, people usually see him wondering where did JP go.
His bandmates see him locked in his room, making setlists, pretending he's in control again.

[SwedishGoose]

No Portnoy was not the only one behind the heaviness and I think DT should be heavy. As they have been from the start. But on the later albums there are parts that don't fit. The most glaring one is in ANTR.

Where I think Portnoy had a more instrumental role is in making DT only write music in the studio. I never heard anything about them writing music before entering the studio since at least ToT but the first tour without MP we got reports of them writing new music during the tour.

I think the later albums suffer because the band did not allowe time to work on the songs with "fresh ears". Writing something and then coming back to it again after some time has passed allows you to see things you missed the first time and to perfect the music.

I would much rather that they write and demo a lot of songs and then trim it down when they enter the studio than they go into the studio with a blank slate and the descision to fill a CD worth of music.

The probability of this happening is much bigger without MP I think. He takes his penchant for writing quickly in the studio with him to his current bands.

[Stadler]

I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...

We're definitely not sure about it, but personally the telling clues for me are
1. The fact that almost every time DT tackled a heavier style in a way that's not fitting them at all, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP.
2. Adding to the first reason, there was this whole apologetic post by MP on his forum back when BCSL came out, explaining that he thought the original way JLB sang the (what later became) growling section was awkward, then he tried all sorts of combinations and growling styles before settling on the final cut.
3. MP was the most vocal person to talk (in general, but particularly about) about their "inspiration corner"
4. The immediate bands he went on to when contemplating to and actually quitting DT were A7X and Adrenaline Mob, both kinda reminiscent of SC and BCSL's awkward moments (to me at least).
5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.

I'm sure that the other members are not just "sheeps" who blindly followed everything Portnoy said and that it wouldn't have happened if they didn't like it as well, but it really seems to me like he was the main force behind it. I may be wrong, of course.

1. Ignoring completely that almost every time DT tackled ANY style, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP.  That's what he did (and that is not a knock; I always kind of liked the contrast with James' voice).
2. As I understand it, he tried many combinations, not limited to growling, yet that was what supported the music.  Blame the music (which, I understand was largely written by Petrucci) if you are set on "blaming" anything.
3. You've already answered your own point:  MP was the most vocal person to talk IN GENERAL.
4. This is revisionist history.  He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT, and he announced Flying Colors around the same time as announcing AMob.   Plus, if you look at the first releases after leaving they are:  AMob (EP), Neal Morse, Yellow Matter Custard, AMob (LP), Flying Colors, Morse-Portnoy-George, Neal Morse, Prog World Orchestra.    Portnoy didn't solely focus on metal, though what he did was compartmentalize his offerings (which I do have a problem with).  But there was a LOT of prog in that group.  And if you look at the BC&SL covers - which Portnoy selected for the most part - there is a lot more prog than metal in there.   Finally, Petrucci is the guy that almost always drops a Metallica riff or part in his solo spots, not Portnoy, so it's not really fair to point to MP as the "METAL PUSHER". 
5. I don't completely disagree with the "awkward heaviness", but it is still there in the two non-MP albums, I think it just comes out differently.  Those two albums are so dense with guitar, they barely breathe, and that is more Petrucci than MP (well, ALL Petrucci, since MP isn't on those albums).  I think it is a manifestation of the same idea. 

[ToT-147]

Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about

One of the things that surely bothered the other members.. He wanted to take control about everything.. That's not how you do things when you're in a band.. Fortunately, he couldn't take control over the composition.. I'm not sure if I would ever like so much DT's music if that would have happened..

[hefdaddy42]

I doubt that ever bothered anyone.

[Stadler]

Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about

One of the things that surely bothered the other members.. He wanted to take control about everything.. That's not how you do things when you're in a band.. Fortunately, he couldn't take control over the composition.. I'm not sure if I would ever like so much DT's music if that would have happened..

How can you say that?  On what grounds?   

As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones?  It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so...   Gene and Paul are clearly in charge of Kiss.   Tyler is apparently calling the shots in Aerosmith now.  Steve Harris takes a back seat to no one in Maiden.   Ric Ocasek calls the shots in the Cars.  Jerry had final say (such that it was) in the Dead.   Noel ran the show in Oasis, much to his brother's consternation. 

I think the ideal of Rush, where no one takes a crap without all members in full agreement as to which stall to use, is an exception, not the rule. 

[SystematicThought]

As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones?  It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so...

Didn't Charlie shine his shoes, dress in a full suit, walked down to Mick's room, and punch him the faced and told him: "I'm not your drummer, your my singer?"

[hefdaddy42]

As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones?  It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so...

Didn't Charlie shine his shoes, dress in a full suit, walked down to Mick's room, and punch him the faced and told him: "I'm not your drummer, your my singer?"

So the story goes.

[Madman Shepherd]

4. This is revisionist history.  He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,

C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history.  Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue.  That has always been what the whole debate was about.  Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT?  Was it a combination?  Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?

Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later.  He quit DT in September.  Avenged officially parted ways with him in December. 

[Darkstarshades]

I wish he had continued, because A7X is literally in oblivion now.

[Madman Shepherd]

Really?  I don't follow them but I just checked the numbers and Nightmare debuted at number 1 and their last one, Hail to the King debuted at number 1. 

[Train of Naught]

Well yea, it's always been hard to pile A7X's popularity, because basically every album has a very different style (atleast that's how I perceive it), but HttK seems to be the fans least favorite, I think the band is in great shape nonetheless, not entirely sure what he meant by A7X being in oblivion.

[KevShmev]

4. This is revisionist history.  He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,

C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history.  Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue.  That has always been what the whole debate was about.  Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT?  Was it a combination?  Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?

Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later.  He quit DT in September.  Avenged officially parted ways with him in December.

Madman is the correct one here.  A7X even came out later and said that Portnoy told them he had quit DT and said, "I can be with you guys now," indicating he would stay on full time, and they were like, no, we don't want the drama or the rep as being the ones responsible for him having left DT.  That is when Portnoy scrambled and tried to get back in DT.

[scorpa65]

After all these years i find it funny this is still a subject matter. They (both sides) are doing just fine. MP has some great stuff out. And DT they are doing awesome. The last album with MP i really didnt care for it. It was getting stale. I think both made the right choice. But im looking forward to The Astonishing in a big way.

[Stadler]

4. This is revisionist history.  He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,

C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history.  Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue.  That has always been what the whole debate was about.  Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT?  Was it a combination?  Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?

Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later.  He quit DT in September.  Avenged officially parted ways with him in December.

What Mike may have wanted, and what was being discussed, and what was actually going to happen are two, uh, three, different things.  There was a statement in late spring, early summer that said he was going to finish the tour and be done.   Then in September he left DT.  He played with A7X through December, but for everyone (except possibly MP, and I'm willing to give him the doubt that this was a late development that - as he has stated in interviews - was a spur of the moment thing given his new work status) knew well before that that it was a temporary fix.    That he lobbied to get into A7X is without doubt true (all sides concede that) but the writing was on the wall. 

I guess in the spirit of discussion, I allow that this is more grey than I painted it, but the reality is - in the context of the "metal discussion" - is that MP was not SOLELY the metal guy, and he can't be solely blamed/take sole credit for the "awkward metal" aspects of SC and BC&SL. 

[Calvin6s]

How many DT fans were gained by Mike being the drummer for Avenged Sevenfold?

[cramx3]

How many DT fans were gained by Mike being the drummer for Avenged Sevenfold?

I would imagine some, and some the other way around as well.  If you check the A7X thread's history, you know there were a lot on this board who went out and checked them out once they found out MP was drumming.  As for DT gaining fans, harder to tell since I do not follow the A7X fan base, but I'd believe there have to be some.