*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[erwinrafael]

How could you even compare the composition of both when WDADU was composed as a set of individual songs, while The Astonishing was composed as a whole. Any composition decisions for The Astonishing was made to serve what a particular point in the narrative needs. To even claim that you can compare these two different animals from a composition standpoint really stretches credibility.

Long story short, you could compare each album's success at accomplishing its respective artistic goals. And then which of the artistic goals accomplishes a stronger effect on a listener. It would be debatable, of course, but I think that would be the discussion.

You can not because the units of analysis are different. in WDADU, the units of analysis are individual songs because each song was composed separately and individually. Any artistic goal and any effect on the listener would be evaluated on a per song basis. The Astonishing, on the other hand, was composed as a whole. Any evaluation should take the whole album as a unit of analysis because any composition choice made on the individual songs were made based on the function it would perform for the album at a specific point in the narrative.

Units of analysis. That's the lesson I will teach tomorrow in research design for the social sciences. 

[TheAtliator]

It is interesting to think about this outstanding new DT music in comparison to some of their other work...

When it comes to The Astonishing, I think the story is strong, but could be much stronger. And the way the music and lyrics puts across the story is very strong but could definitely be much stronger. There are instances where I think Dream Theater accomplishes perfection, and this is not one of them.

HOWEVER, I could not be happier that Dream Theater made this album that is SO different from anything they've done. I have heard so much perfect music from them, that I am not disappointed in any way to have this imperfect, but still phenomenal, and fittingly astonishing work, when it is something so fresh to hear from them. They never fail (and never have failed) to create and put out an album that is thoroughly inspired and striving for the best they can possibly create. So, in that sense, it is perfect and I couldn't be happier.

Plus, this is going to be such an entertaining live show

[ResultsMayVary]

There is a user on the subreddit for Dream Theater that prefers WDADU to The Astonishing and is serious about it.

I honestly don't know how to react to that.

I might agree with that...

I understand everyone has their opinion, but WDADU has so many issues with it that makes it inferior to all other DT albums in every objective way.

And I could probably argue for WDADU being compositionally superior to TA in an objective way. I'm not sure I'd want to get that detailed in this debate, because it would take a lot of writing, and I really do love the new album. However, I do believe that the certain characteristics I find better about WDADU could be defined objectively.

I'm talking pure objective points like production. TA is miles ahead of WDADU in the production department and it's not even close.

Notice I don't mention anything about the music or composition, just objective points.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Units of analysis. That's the lesson I will teach tomorrow in research design for the social sciences. 

I was lecturing on the history of the field of communication the other day and used the word "nefarious" and nearly lost it.

[ResultsMayVary]

That being said, I'm not sure how someone says that the composition and music on WDADU is better than TA. That's just ridiculous to me.

[CodyWanKenobi]

That being said, I'm not sure how someone says that the composition and music on WDADU is better than TA. That's just ridiculous to me.

Yeah, I'm sure even MP would disagree.

[TheAtliator]

Well, how can you say that an album's level of production can be compared objectively while its composition can't? What if I thought that WDADU had better production because I don't like the sound of compression or something or other, but what's most important to me is that the bass has more of a punch? Could it just be subjective as to what perfect production means?

I don't actually think WDADU has better production than The Astonishing (in most ways, anyway...) but, if I'm not straying too far off topic, I think it's just as fair to discuss composition in terms of objectivity as it is to discuss production. I believe that even though The Astonishing has so much greatness to it that WDADU doesn't come close to touching, some parts of the new album are flawed in ways that many older Dream Theater works are not.

[BlobVanDam]

^ Agreed entirely.

[Moor]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made. DT12 felt like an attempt to buckle down and make something cohesive (Illumination Theory not withstanding) that could come across as their most radio safe record as a whole. The Astonishing completely surpassed all expectations set by the current lineup IMO. Nothing safe, standard or ordinary about this album.

100% agree on all that.
Not a minority at all, ADToE is a DT at what they do best, every song was amazing in it's own way and it aged real well, I think it's the best post-6 Degrees album, not including The Astonishing cause it's still too early to say that IMO.

Fully agree with the above two posts 

[Moor]

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-dream-theater-shred-amid-flying-robots-in-the-gift-of-music-video-20160203

'The Gift of Music' Video !

[BlobVanDam]

Nice video!. Always good to see band footage, and it was well shot and edited.

[erwinrafael]

Wow, that's a good video by DT standards. 

My two gripes are 1) they do not focus on Mangini during the parts I am most interested in, and 2) in the closing, the camera captured all members except Myung.

[Moor]

Manginiiiiiiiii.. he goes crazy on this vid 
Did JLB put mascara on his eyelashes?

[erwinrafael]

Funniest comment on the album I have read so far, posted on Mangini's FB page:

"Weakest álbum in Years..no drums, no guitars,, only Labrie groaning...shame..back to past.."

It's from a "music critic" from Brazil. 

[Ben_Jamin]

My only gripe is it needed more story scenes.

[jsbru]

Just finished listening to it the first time all the way through.  I picked up the album on Friday, but I was up in Iowa for the weekend canvassing for Bernie (a wholly separate revolution  ), so I didn't get a chance to listen to it until tonight.

It's a lot to digest, so I don't even know if I should be posting after just one listen.  Overall, after the first listen, I'd put this at least in the middle of the pack as far as DT albums go, but I often find that DTs music grows on me with time, so this could move up.  I thought TGOM was mediocre when it came out, but by now, I think it's pretty awesome.  I agree with what someone else said--the highs of this album are some of the highest in a very long time--possibly ever.  I do think that some parts tend to drag on, though.  Like a lot of recent DT albums, the cutting room shears could be put to use a bit more, and a better product would result.  Some specifics:

The Good

• A New Beginning is just jaw-droppingly good.  After my full 2:10 listening session, I went back and listened to this one again because I basically had to.  Could be one of their best songs ever.
• This is easily James' best performance since his vocal chord injury--and perhaps ever.  I don't miss at all the growlyer James from the SC/BC&SL era.  His plan on this album was obviously to let loose that operatic voice of his, and his voice clearly works best in that register...to the point that it's pretty much astonishing.
• The mix is a lot better than DT12--there's more "space" on the mix, and you can hear a lot more detail.
• Second favorite song on the album was Our New World.  Really super-charged riffs on this one, and a very fresh, new sound.
• Love Jordan's diversity of sound on this one.  Lots of different synth/organ sounds that sound a lot cooler/funkier/appropriate/fresher than what I've heard before.
• I really love the NOMAC tracks.  I know it's never going to happen, but I was disappointed in how short they were, and I would have really enjoyed it if they made an entire 4-5 minute song out of one or two of these.  They ended just as I was getting in the mood for them.
• Mangini's drumming sounded more natural and less robotic on this album.  Don't know if that was just the mastering, or a conscious effort.
• Some of the best JP solos of all time
• Even beyond A New Beginning, the entire last 4 tracks of Act I are phenomenal.

The Less Than Good

• Act I seems to drag on a lot, especially toward the middle.  There's probably some music in here that could be cut out; some stuff that sounds like filler like they were just trying to fill up the CD.
• I pretty much do not think that this album is very "accessible" to new fans.  Not that rock operas tend to be, but Tommy at least had Pinball Wizard, 2112 had Overture/The Temples of Syrinx, and The Wall had a host of catchy songs.  I don't think there's a song on here that could conceivably get airplay.  I know most DT fans are of the "screw airplay" mind, but I don't think it would kill this band to write a radio hit or two to draw in some new folks.  There's people I would like to attend DT shows with, but it's hard to convince them to come.  All the best prog bands have at least a few radio hits: Yes, Genesis, Iron Maiden, and King Crimson all had multiples without really selling out.  I thought maybe with David Campbell on board, there was a chance of getting one, but we didn't.

There's really not a lot of negatives though.  It's the kind of incredibly dedicated work product one comes to expect out of DT.  They really outdid themselves with this one.  They deserve praise just for the amount of effort that went into this.  They explored a lot of new sounds, but only bits at a time.  The thing is, the parts of this album where they do go out there and take a risk seem to be kind of short, and I felt I wanted more of that (NOMAC tracks, and a couple of sections of songs that I can't remember now that sounded really fresh and unique, but quickly delved back into the stereotypical neo-classical/gothic/polyrhythmic/diminished/chromatic jams that are cool in the right places, but that DT has the tendency to overdo and put into almost every song).

I do think that I'll like this album more after repeated listens, though.  But I'd say that its floor is at least DT average, with decent upside.

[Ben_Jamin]

The ending of Begin Again.....

[Ben_Jamin]

When Your Time Has Come has standalone potential.

[Mladen]

I'm generally a fan of this guy, but he just doesn't get prog rock/metal it seems... He's almost always bashing prog when he reviews it, but to call The Astonishing "All proficiency, no soul" is just wrong.
https://youtu.be/BFK3H5Tl_Lo?t=3m3s

I love this guy's channel and I check it every other day, even though I obviously don't always agree with him. But man, he really dropped the ball with the comment on The Astonishing. 

[TheAtliator]

This music video is AWESOME!!! Love it!

[CodyWanKenobi]

The only thing about this album that is unfortunate, is the fact that out of the three albums that have been released since MM joined the band, this makes the second where he wasn't involved in the writing.

[Logain Ablar]

The ending of Begin Again.....

Yes! The double time section? A really cool twist, and very uplifting.

[erwinrafael]

The ending of Begin Again.....

One of my favorite Mangini moments. The stereo effect of the cymbals is amazing.

[MirrorMask]

When Your Time Has Come has standalone potential.

Absolutely, the chorus alone could have prompted a more traditionallly-structured song into the olympus of DT ballads:

When you're facing the path that divides
Know that I will be there by your side
Find your strength in the sound of my voice
And you'll know which choice is right

Shivers.

[thosava]

I remember reading somewhere that a mandolin was used somehwere in the album. Could someone point out where it's used?

[ariich]

Just posting to say that while listening to the album at the moment, I just got goosebumps at the point where Arhys gets killed. Definitely another great moment where the music perfectly represents what's going on.

[The Stray Seed]

I remember reading somewhere that a mandolin was used somehwere in the album. Could someone point out where it's used?

Hymn of a Thousand Voices maybe? 2:13-2:17. Sounds like a mandolin to me.

[MirrorMask]

Just posting to say that while listening to the album at the moment, I just got goosebumps at the point where Arhys gets killed. Definitely another great moment where the music perfectly represents what's going on.

Yeah, first time I heard the album and I was reading the lyrics I was sad like I would see it happening in a movie, the moment describing his death is very dramatic.

Anyway, one weird thing I realized... this album is completely unlikely anything they've ever done, but in bits and pieces there are moments when you can say it's 100% Dream Theater... I guess a whole album of those "very classic DT" moments would have bored me. This album is polarizing and I know many people cry out for the lack of classic DT on this one, but a classic, formulaic DT album would have not sparked my interested the way The Astonishing is doing.

[Kotowboy]

There is a user on the subreddit for Dream Theater that prefers WDADU to The Astonishing and is serious about it.

I honestly don't know how to react to that.

I've seen people say TA is their worst album. Not really sure how to react to that either.

Every time a band brings out a new album - someone somewhere will say it's the worst album.

[Rickharris1011]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made. DT12 felt like an attempt to buckle down and make something cohesive (Illumination Theory not withstanding) that could come across as their most radio safe record as a whole. The Astonishing completely surpassed all expectations set by the current lineup IMO. Nothing safe, standard or ordinary about this album.

I don't think you're in the minority thinking AToE was a feeling of revitalization.  I think that's a fairly popular belief.  I would say greater than 50% think it an improvement over SC and BC&SL.  It got me back into DT. 

[BlobVanDam]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made. DT12 felt like an attempt to buckle down and make something cohesive (Illumination Theory not withstanding) that could come across as their most radio safe record as a whole. The Astonishing completely surpassed all expectations set by the current lineup IMO. Nothing safe, standard or ordinary about this album.

I don't think you're in the minority thinking AToE was a feeling of revitalization.  I think that's a fairly popular belief.  I would say greater than 50% think it an improvement over SC and BC&SL.*  It got me back into DT. 

*on DTF. Outside of DTF, I find most people find little difference in quality between any of the RR era albums (excluding TA for being new).

[Cyclopssss]

You guys realise, that at the concerts, we might see JM and MM walk off stage for a substantial amount of time? There's a lot of tracks with just keyboard/piano and guitar. Just wondering.

[Rickharris1011]

Faythe - Act of Faythe themes
Gabriel -  The Answer Themes and it's variations
Arhys - Brother Can You Hear Me? / A better life themes
Nefaryus - Anything dark, evil and edgy (with a Disney villain feel)   

Xander, Evangeline and The Empress don't really seem to have a reoccurring theme of their own.

Nearest I can tell anyways. You can hear the different themes revisited on the final track 34 Astonishing.

And Daryus, I would say, is the main theme of A Tempting Offer and its variations near the end of The Path That Divides.

Thanks dudes! 

Evangeline has a theme too.  It starts around 00:45 in the overture...sort of comes back in feel in "A better life" when Arhys sings about Evangeline (not exactly the same, but kind of).  It's also the main theme of  The X-Factor (I mean X aspect) 

[MirrorMask]

You guys realise, that at the concerts, we might see JM and MM walk off stage for a substantial amount of time? There's a lot of tracks with just keyboard/piano and guitar. Just wondering.

We survived all this time with James disappearing for what must amount to dozen of minutes by the end of a 3 hour show, I guess we'll deal with the absence of Myung and Mangini just fine 

But yeah, it will be weird to not have James the most absent member from the stage!

[Zydar]

I guess JM will walk to his sofa at the side of the stage and drink Starbucks during those times.