Top Mike Mangini moments in The Astonishing

[erwinrafael]

I guess I am the resident Mike Mangini thread starter. 

As expected, I love what Mangini brought to the table in The Astonishing (although he occasionally fell in love too much with the double bass  ). Superb playing and drum composition all throughout. Here, for me, are the top 10 Mangini moments:

10. Begin Again outro (3:15 onwards) - this groovy section has Mangini using his clockwise & counter-clockwise limb system playing a basic snare and drum pattern while one limb syncopates a hi-hat in the right speaker and another limb does a more playful pattern on the left speaker.

9. Dystopian Overture (2:56 to 3:25) - Mangini does a nice pattern with the toms, which is not extraordinary, but the thing that made me smile here is the added texture of cymbals playing a ride pattern on the right speaker (which basically means Mangini is playing the toms and snare with his left hand only).

8. The Gift of Music intro (0:10 to 0:23) - the pulsating drum pattern in the intro really sets the tone of the song for me, with just the right amount of off-beat bass and snare hits to keep me from doing traditional headbanging. 

7. Moment of Betrayal outro (5:25 onwards) - what I love in this part is that Mangini is doing the usual highlighting of what the other instruments are doing, but his choices of what to highlight and how to highlight it comes from out of left field that he keeps you on your toes.

6. Three Days outro (3:26 onwards) - swing jazz blastbeat. nobody saw that coming.

5. A New Beginning instrumental and outro (3:47 onwards) - the drumming orchestration in the instrumental is textbook Mangini keeping a tight beat while highlighting what the other instruments are doing. And then that beautiful outro. Mangini keeping it simple and tight, making JP's guitar solo and JM's 80s bass groove work. Sort of reminds me of his work in early Annihilator or some Steve Vai (Black Forest, for example).

4. Ravenskill (2:10 to 4:00) - Mangini doing just straight up old-school rock drumming and it just . I keep on picturing people in the concert just headbanging to this beat. I also love the drumming in the more theatrical parts, very dramatic.

3. The Path That Divides (2:04 to 3:58) - One of Mangini's best assets is his kick drum technique and it is in this song that it really shines. Best part was when his bass drum synced up with James during the "rap" portion while the hi-hats and the snare keep a tight beat.

2. A Life Left Behind (0:08 to 1:23) - This is elegant orchestration. It's like Mangini channeling Terry Bozzio during his UK stint. I love the changes in cymbal choices in the orchestration (using the ride when complementing the piano, shifting to hi-hats for guitars, etc). I am a Mangini fanboy so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but for me, this is flawless.

1. The Walking Shadow (whole song) - This is a technical drumming masterpiece that is also very musical. This is how you use drums in helping tell a story. When the hi-hat goes "tic tic tic" as Daryus waits for the walking shadow, you get that sense of foreboding, being disrupted by clever shifts in downbeats to contrast with the riffing. But the best part is the drumming after the interlude, with one of the most complex polyrhythmic drumming in a Dream Theater song. It's a set of ten bars of 14/8 (or 7/4) marked by the crash cymbal. In the first three bars, the snare hits on the 8th eighth note, but on the 4th bar, the snare hits on the 7th eighth note, following LaBrie's lines that goes 4 bars of 6/8, 4 bars of 5/8, 4 bars of 4/8, 4 bars of 3/8 and 3 bars of 2/8, with the final snare hit leading to the roll (the 20th syllable "...Faythe) coinciding with the crash cymbal after the final bar of the 14/8 underlying beat. All this while the bass drum syncs with John Myung's irregular bass. All this craziness not just being a technical exercise but actually contributing to the confusing and climactic atmosphere being called for in the song. Amazing.

EDITED to correct the counting in the Walking Shadow.

[mikemangioy]

Damn right, The Walking Shadow is an example of how over-the-top technicality can work amazingly for a song. Mangini gave his best in DT12 so far, but in this album there are tons of cool subtleties. It will be interesting to watch videos of him playing the songs live.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Nice writeup!

I love the final fill (outburst) he does in The Walking Shadow. 

[Sycsa]

Great thread, I would have probably opened a similar one if I could actually penetrate this album (or is it vice versa? ). It was a pleasure listening to the parts you highlighted. Mangini does indeed use a lot of double bass on this album, but I love it, I'm a huge double bass enthusiast and it never gets old with me. I also love the sound of the kick drum, it's deep, powerful, yet snappy and tight, one of my favorite DT kick drum sounds. Some of the cymbals sound spectacular too, like the crisp clear hi-hat at 01:06 during The Walking Shadow.

[The Stray Seed]

Fantastic thread. I loved Mangini's drumwork on this album, it's so over the top!

[theinuu]

Great thread and good remarks! Those were the things I paid attention to when I listened the album few times. As a drummer, I really enjoy MM's drumming. I think MM really shines on drums when the band is playing more complex stuff. I totally understand if people think that MM uses triggers on both DT12 and TA. His playing is so consistent that it really feels that he is using triggers, even if he does not.

One thing I really needed to get used to when MM replaced MP was that MM does not use splashes and stax cymbals as much as MP did. In addition, MP used a alot more crash cymbals in choruses and guitar solos than MM. For example, I'm pretty sure that MP would not have played the outro of A New Beginning the way that MM played it. I'm not stating that this is a bad thing. It is really refreshing to hear MM's playing. And it is damn difficult to practice his parts

[Train of Naught]

Three Days outro is obviously remarkable, but my favorite Mangini moments have pretty much always been his ride cymbals in some of the choruses, a la Lost Not Forgotten, he has quite a few of those on the new album.

[erwinrafael]

Three Days outro is obviously remarkable, but my favorite Mangini moments have pretty much always been his ride cymbals in some of the choruses, a la Lost Not Forgotten, he has quite a few of those on the new album.

There's this part in Three Days where his ride was amazing, playing with the piano. He loves using the ride to highlight piano parts. Examples would be in Dystopian Overture and when the drums come in in A Tempting Offer.

[CDrice]

Not the most crazy thing, but I like the drum fill at 1:16 in Our New World. Actually I find the whole song very air-drummable.

[Dream Team]

MM is awesome on TA, his best album so far (although I'd lean toward ADTOE if it had better production). Still not up with MP's best efforts but great nonetheless.

[TAC]

That's a great OP!

[ReaPsTA]

Mangini's great at the parts that very good and very musically complicated, but seem simple if you don't analyze them. It shows how he does a lot of subtle things to add a little extra to the music without ever distracting from it.

[Peace and Love]

Mangini's great at the parts that very good and very musically complicated, but seem simple if you don't analyze them. It shows how he does a lot of subtle things to add a little extra to the music without ever distracting from it.

I completely agree!

In this regard, if I had to compare DT drummers to legendary prog drummers I would say MM is like Bill Bruford while MP is like Neil Peart.

[pcs90]

Excellent thread, and this may very well be his best DT album performance so far. I noticed most of these, but a few I hadn't really thought about (noteably The Walking Shadow), but it's spot-on. He is the master of making complicated parts sound simple -- until you try and learn them!

As far as MM not using splashes and stacks as much, splashes maybe so, but he uses his stacks plenty on this album. The thing is, the ones he tends to use are larger than MP's so they won't have the same type of sound. If you hear a china cymbal with a very fast decay, it's probably one of his larger stacks too.

[erwinrafael]

Mangini's great at the parts that very good and very musically complicated, but seem simple if you don't analyze them. It shows how he does a lot of subtle things to add a little extra to the music without ever distracting from it.

I completely agree!

In this regard, if I had to compare DT drummers to legendary prog drummers I would say MM is like Bill Bruford while MP is like Neil Peart.

MM as Bruford is a good comparison. For me, though, MM really sounds more like a metal version of Terry Bozzio. When I hear a song like this, I keep picturing MM playing a lot of the parts that way.

[pringkaarwanda]

Woaah man !!! Very happy to read this kind of thread !!! 
You notice all that drum detail just like me, I notice all of that too
I always concentrate and put my focus to listening the drum. I always focus on my stereo speaker or headset, so I can find out what cymbal, or tom mangini hit on the song
Every body did very very good job in this album, not only petrucci, or rudess, or labrie, but all of them., Myung and mangini very did a great job too... 
cant wait too see they playing this album live !!!
hope someone focus to record mangini when they play live, so we all can know what actually he doing back there... 

Do you think in A New Beginning, 00:30 to 00:48, and 01:25 to 01:41, mangini hit left and right hihat cymbal??
and then 04:14 to 04:21, that left hihat and right stack? in crazy time signature 15/8, 7/4, 15/8 and 8/4 !!??
it just like what he doing in Lost Not Forgotten in 05:22 to 05:38 you know what I mean?? 

[erwinrafael]

I do not quite get what you mean about the ealier part of ANB, but the playing in the solo that you mentioned, that was killer. I love how the hi-hats are keeping a metronomic beat while the other limbs are following the other instruments with the changing time signatures. It was a reversal of the section before where the bass and snare are keeping a constant beat while the cymbals are following JR's keys.

[Darkstarshades]

I'm amazed nobody has said the "Meet me tonight where the stars touch the sky...."  that whole part, his drumming just makes it so climatic.

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, the drums in that section of MOB was amazing, especially the bass. Much more impressed with The Path That Divides, though. I would be interested to see if he can pull off live the bass during the rap portion.

[pcs90]

Speaking of MoB, the drumming in the second verse is also really cool.

[pringkaarwanda]

I do not quite get what you mean about the ealier part of ANB, but the playing in the solo that you mentioned, that was killer. I love how the hi-hats are keeping a metronomic beat while the other limbs are following the other instruments with the changing time signatures. It was a reversal of the section before where the bass and snare are keeping a constant beat while the cymbals are following JR's keys.

well, maybe I am wrong in the earlier part of A New Beginning.. But at least you understand what I am talking about part 04:14 to 04:21
that was mind blowing !!! 
I'll try to make drum midi for that part so everyone can hear what actually we're talking about hahahaha 

[FsF]

Hard Mode: Try doing one for Myung...

[erwinrafael]

Hard Mode: Try doing one for Myung...

Wait for it later today. You might be surprised. 

[SebastianPratesi]

Amazing post you did there, although most of that stuff I should pay attention to.

I have a question regarding this bit on "The Walking Shadow":

(...) and 4 bars of 2/8, with the final snare hit leading to the roll (the 15th syllable "...Faythe) coinciding with the crash cymbal after the final bar of the 14/8 underlying beat.

Every time I hear the song, I count 3 bars of 2/8 (during which James only sings "Shadow is"), and I always assume that's it - on "Faythe!", some sort of musical madness begins.

Is it really 4 bars of 2/8? Should I look at it from another angle? I'm no drummer, but I enjoy understanding about rhythm and odd time signatures/polyrhythms, so maybe I should re-read your post tomorrow.

[erwinrafael]

Amazing post you did there, although most of that stuff I should pay attention to.

I have a question regarding this bit on "The Walking Shadow":

(...) and 4 bars of 2/8, with the final snare hit leading to the roll (the 15th syllable "...Faythe) coinciding with the crash cymbal after the final bar of the 14/8 underlying beat.

Every time I hear the song, I count 3 bars of 2/8 (during which James only sings "Shadow is"), and I always assume that's it - on "Faythe!", some sort of musical madness begins.

Is it really 4 bars of 2/8? Should I look at it from another angle? I'm no drummer, but I enjoy understanding about rhythm and odd time signatures/polyrhythms, so maybe I should re-read your post tomorrow.

Yep, you're correct. I looked at my notes and now I'm wondering why I wrote that. Let me edit. Hahaha. So it goes something like this:

4 bars of 6/8 - As his weapon
4 bars of 5/8 - Finds its victim
4 bars of 4/8 - Mortified, he's
4 bars of 3/8 - shocked to find the
3 bars of 2/8 - shadow is
20th hit - Faythe

[nikatapi]

Really like the part at about 3:00 in Ravenskill, just pure energy with the china cymbals, i can imagine Mike beating the shit out of the drums on this part live.

[erwinrafael]

Really like the part at about 3:00 in Ravenskill, just pure energy with the china cymbals, i can imagine Mike beating the shit out of the drums on this part live.

Yeah, this would be killer when played live.

[Rickharris1011]

Not a drummer, but love the thread.  I think MM really shines in the half-time grooves all over TA, like the heavy part of Heaven's Cove where he plays a little bit behind the beat (am I saying that right?)...the double bass fills are awesome. I also love the groove in A tempting offer under that evil JR keyboard solo. 

[erwinrafael]

That part in A Tempting Offer is cool. My favorite from that song is the intro, when Mangini was doing a melodic run on the cymbals to mirror JR's piano. Then he also did the same thing with the toms.

My number 11 on the list would have been the drums during the second guitar solo in Our New World. No overdrumming, just excellent drum composition hitting the right accents to let JP shine.

[SebastianPratesi]

Yep, you're correct. I looked at my notes and now I'm wondering why I wrote that. Let me edit. Hahaha. So it goes something like this:

4 bars of 6/8 - As his weapon
4 bars of 5/8 - Finds its victim
4 bars of 4/8 - Mortified, he's
4 bars of 3/8 - shocked to find the
3 bars of 2/8 - The shadow is
20th hit - Faythe

Thanks, man. You clearly are more knowledgeable than I am, so maybe you can help me with this?
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=45974.0

Thanks!

[AngelBack]

I find MMs playing on Lord Nafaryus similar to MPs style.  And agreed its MMs best DT performance 

[lucasembarbosa]

There's this drum fill in A Savior In The Square @2:58 that makes me mad...

[erwinrafael]

Recent post from Mangini on Facebook:

"Technical Tidbit about the drum subtleties you'll see live- the double snares military part in The Astonishing is played as follows: My right-hand plays the 10" snare part of triplet twos and thress while the left plays the two rolls on the main snare. Those are a 13:2 and a 7 tuplet. Since both are odd, it is the upstroke of the one-handed roll in both cases that lands on "1" against the right-hand mini snare part. Really hard to do for me, but normal, even rolls do not work as well as odd ones even though most of the world won't even know what's going on. That's OK. We know smile emoticon As Tuplets go, the Gong drum rolls through out the album are all timed as huge tuplets. They aren't just rolls. Join me for the fun !"

So he was playing the two snares simultaneously in the march part in Astonishing (3:17 to 4:08). I thought those were two snares recorded separately, and they were just going for a marching band effect. That's crazy.

[erwinrafael]

And Mangini seems really excited for the live shows.  Again, from his Facebook:

"Just sharing some good vibes: The space in these new songs sounds and feels huge with a real, full band - shakes the room and is not easy to keep the feel from rushing for the sake of weakness for the moment. I thought it would be dynamic, but for it to be as powerful as I experienced is just tremendous. This show is going to take discipline, especially with a LOT of subtle notes between the lines and I know it is going to shake bones and walls. Nothing like a band in a room crushing a PA system. Even the quiet moments are haunting in person, but it is those quite moments that makes the bombastic, melodic outbursts hit even hards. Again, just sharing some excitement."

[nikatapi]

And Mangini seems really excited for the live shows.  Again, from his Facebook:

"Just sharing some good vibes: The space in these new songs sounds and feels huge with a real, full band - shakes the room and is not easy to keep the feel from rushing for the sake of weakness for the moment. I thought it would be dynamic, but for it to be as powerful as I experienced is just tremendous. This show is going to take discipline, especially with a LOT of subtle notes between the lines and I know it is going to shake bones and walls. Nothing like a band in a room crushing a PA system. Even the quiet moments are haunting in person, but it is those quite moments that makes the bombastic, melodic outbursts hit even hards. Again, just sharing some excitement."

This is going to be such an incredible tour. Really jelly.