Marvel's Movie/TV Universe v2 (SPOILERS)

[jammindude]

I get where the criticisms come from.   In fact, if I had to pick a single movie out of the entire original 23 films that was completely unnecessary to the overall story arc of The Avengers Initiative...this would be the one.   But there's a lot of cool stuff to take away too. 

Tony's PTSD is honestly very important to HIS character development.  His relationship with the kid is brilliant and pays off at his funeral.   And really, all the actor performances are off the chart good.    In fact, while I'm on the subject, let me take a moment to soapbox about green screen acting.   

How many actors have talked about how hard it is to act with nothing in front of them but a screen.   Now, I want you to think about every single scene in the entire MCU where RDJ had to do his "in the suit" facial acting with probably NOTHING in front of him at all...just some descriptions of what was happening.   Now I want you to think about how difficult that must be the next time you watch any of the MCU movies he's in where he has to do "in the suit" reaction shots.   I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it must be to make that completely natural and believable, and yet he pulls it off to the point where you most likely don't even think about it.

Anyway, at the end of the day, really fun film.  I see the plot holes, but I see great acting and great character development, and I'm looking forward to tackling AoS for a bit.

[ZirconBlue]

Totally agree.  Ben Kingsley is awesome, and Iron Man III was a ton of fun, although I thought Killian the bad guy was kinda lame, to be honest.  Yeah, he's super powerful and demented and all the things a bad guy should be, but maybe that was the problem.  He was such a cliché. 

Killian wasn't supposed to be the main bad guy.  Killian was supposed to be more minor character, with Maya Hansen actually pulling the strings.  But, misogynist prick, Ike Perlmutter, demanded a male villain.  (source)

[jingle.boy]

Love Ben Kingsley and his performance - both sides to the character.  Killian was a supremely uninteresting character.  I really liked the arc of the story, certain eye-rolling moments not withstanding.

[Adami]

I didn't care for the last act of Iron Man III and it had nothing to do with the Mandarin thing. That was fine. Dumb, but fine.

Mine was how badly they wrote the Killian character at the end. I really loved the idea they started out with him, but then when he became a human dragon thing and he was fighting 40 Iron Man suits and everything was exploding, I just stopped caring. If they had gone for a smaller, more personal ending, that would've made it great. The rest of the movie was fantastic.

[Podaar]

I didn't care for the last act of Iron Man III and it had nothing to do with the Mandarin thing. That was fine. Dumb, but fine.

Mine was how badly they wrote the Killian character at the end. I really loved the idea they started out with him, but then when he became a human dragon thing and he was fighting 40 Iron Man suits and everything was exploding, I just stopped caring. If they had gone for a smaller, more personal ending, that would've made it great. The rest of the movie was fantastic.

Yeah, that's exactly my thought too.

[bosk1]

Personally, I really liked IM3.  I thought the Mandarin twist was brilliant, Tony's character arc went REALLY deep and was well-done, and I liked how dark the tone was overall.

...if I had to pick a single movie out of the entire original 23 films that was completely unnecessary to the overall story arc of The Avengers Initiative...this would be the one.   

For my mileage, I completely disagree because:

Tony's PTSD is honestly very important to HIS character development.  His relationship with the kid is brilliant and pays off at his funeral.   

This.  I think it was HUGE to show him being mentally fragile as a result of the battle of New York.  And those "cracks" in his psyche informed and influenced pretty much every decision he made throughout the Infinity Saga, from AOU, to Civil War, to Homecoming, to Infinity War, to Endgame.  The Tony Stark character was done SO well, and IM3 is a huge reason why.

Mine was how badly they wrote the Killian character at the end. I really loved the idea they started out with him, but then when he became a human dragon thing and he was fighting 40 Iron Man suits and everything was exploding, I just stopped caring. If they had gone for a smaller, more personal ending, that would've made it great. The rest of the movie was fantastic.

Yeah, I mostly agree.  The back story and all his motivations up to that point were great.  And when it was initially revealed that he was the puppetmaster behind the whole thing, that was good as well.  But he just started to feel cartoonish and, as much as I hate to use this term, "generic" in much of the final battle, and that left me caring less. 

I still like this movie a lot, and feel that the quality is definitely there.  But the last few minutes (not even the entire third act) just leaves me losing a bit of my emotional investment for the reasons you mention.  Overall, not a huge knock on the film though.  All that just makes it middle-of-the-pack MCU, which is still very entertaining.

[Orbert]

Yeah, I remember now reading that the girl was supposed to be the big bad, but someone didn't like that, so Killian took her out, leaving us with him as the main bad guy.  They probably tried to retool the script a bit, but it didn't work.  He was just another scorned punk whose big plan may have had some upsides, like Buddy from The Incredibles, but didn't really work because he was also a total psycho.  The fire-breathing dragon thing was pretty over-the-top and silly.  I did love Rhodey's reaction, though.  "Oh, you breathe fire now?!"

[jammindude]

Bosk,

Nothing you said is wrong.  IM3 is vital to Tony Stark's character development, and for that reason alone is important to the storyline of the primary hero.  But I think you overlooked my qualifier in the first paragraph.   Or maybe I didn't clarify my thoughts well. 

In making my original statement, I was just observing that nothing happens in IM3 that furthers the First Avenger-Endgame story.  Even in the much maligned Dark World, the aether (Reality Stone) is introduced, and the plot developed.   Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one of the other 22 films that don't contain some plot point in the Thanos/Infinity Stone/Avengers/Endgame War story arc.  (other than that kid being at Tony's funeral, which is more of an Easter egg than a plot point).   No new information is retrieved, no new villain that has anything to do with the bigger picture, no new characters that have any bearing on the outcome.   

I don't even mean that as a direct criticism per se.   It's just an observation that it's the only movie of the 23 that does nothing to further *that* particular story arc.     It does little things to breath new life into characters, and that's not a bad thing.  The Marvel One-Shots do a bit of that as well...on an admittedly FAR smaller scale.  (I especially like A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer...gives us a bit of early insight into Coulson's abilities as a fighter that I don't believe had been fully established at that point).   

[Orbert]

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer was/is awesome.  I loved that the guy we met in Iron Man has skills and we get to see them.  In hindsight it makes perfect sense; you don't get to be an agent working for Nick Fury if you're a bumbling idiot.  And in Iron Man he was never a bumbling idiot, just awkward and probably really nervous being sent to try and court The Amazing Tony Stark for this new initiative that his boss has cooked up.

[masterthes]

Just re-watched Endgame (such a perfect movie). Have we ever discussed why Nebula never mentioned the whole consequences of the Soul Stone to the team? Did she not totally grasp the situation? Like, she knew Gamora died, but did she not understand the sacrifice component?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Bosk,

Nothing you said is wrong.  IM3 is vital to Tony Stark's character development, and for that reason alone is important to the storyline of the primary hero.  But I think you overlooked my qualifier in the first paragraph.   Or maybe I didn't clarify my thoughts well. 

In making my original statement, I was just observing that nothing happens in IM3 that furthers the First Avenger-Endgame story.  Even in the much maligned Dark World, the aether (Reality Stone) is introduced, and the plot developed.   Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one of the other 22 films that don't contain some plot point in the Thanos/Infinity Stone/Avengers/Endgame War story arc.  (other than that kid being at Tony's funeral, which is more of an Easter egg than a plot point).   No new information is retrieved, no new villain that has anything to do with the bigger picture, no new characters that have any bearing on the outcome.   

I don't even mean that as a direct criticism per se.   It's just an observation that it's the only movie of the 23 that does nothing to further *that* particular story arc.     It does little things to breath new life into characters, and that's not a bad thing.  The Marvel One-Shots do a bit of that as well...on an admittedly FAR smaller scale.  (I especially like A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer...gives us a bit of early insight into Coulson's abilities as a fighter that I don't believe had been fully established at that point).   

It does establish that Pepper can use the suits, right? I don't think she does that anywhere else until Endgame. Not that it's a major plot point or anything.

[bosk1]

Just re-watched Endgame (such a perfect movie). Have we ever discussed why Nebula never mentioned the whole consequences of the Soul Stone to the team? Did she not totally grasp the situation? Like, she knew Gamora died, but did she not understand the sacrifice component?

She probably didn't know the specifics, since she wasn't there.  I think it is implied that she had imperfect information, but that she did share what she did know, because Nat pieces it together when she and Barton are discussing whether Red Skull is lying and there might be some other way.

[jammindude]

I'm watching the pilot of AOS right now, and while IM3 still has no story lines to relate to the First Avenger thru Endgame story, it appears that Extremis (developed by Killian) is vital to the Centipede program, and the reason the test subjects blow up.   

My suspicion is that aspects of the story for IM3 may have been altered to promote the (then) very new show.  But I honestly don't know.   

But the positive side is that while IM3's story doesn't contribute to the movie universe story...it is the heart of the AOS story.   

[jammindude]

While I still remember that the first half of season 1 is sometimes stupid...I really liked "Pilot".    For the first episode of any TV show, you expect some "wobbly legs", but this particular episode is actually better than I remember. 

[jammindude]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there it is.   At the very end of episode 2.  The single stupidest moment in the history of the MCU.   Possibly the stupidest moment in the history of action TV shows.    I suspended my disbelief for the "barrel of monkeys", but for this?   It just took me out of the moment.   It was just....wow. 

Still, if I can glean some neat things from this.   The team that hated each other in episode one, solving problems in episode 2.   So it works on that level. 

[jammindude]

....and the cameo from Fury was worth the stupidity of the raft.

[jingle.boy]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there it is.   At the very end of episode 2.  The single stupidest moment in the history of the MCU.   Possibly the stupidest moment in the history of action TV shows.    I suspended my disbelief for the "barrel of monkeys", but for this?   It just took me out of the moment.   It was just....wow. 

Still, if I can glean some neat things from this.   The team that hated each other in episode one, solving problems in episode 2.   So it works on that level.

Remind me again??

[Orbert]

Yeah, I've seen every episode, but you're speak very obliquely about things from like 10 years ago, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

[jammindude]

Patching a gaping hole in the side of a plane flying at 30000ft with a rubber raft.

[jingle.boy]

Patching a gaping hole in the side of a plane flying at 30000ft with a rubber raft.

Ah, that part.

[Dream Team]

Just re-watched Endgame (such a perfect movie). Have we ever discussed why Nebula never mentioned the whole consequences of the Soul Stone to the team? Did she not totally grasp the situation? Like, she knew Gamora died, but did she not understand the sacrifice component?

Seeing your post reminded me that Karen Gillian did some awesome acting in this movie but it's kind of been overshadowed.

[Dream Team]

Oh that reminds of something I was thinking of the other day, how in the MCU powerful laser type space guns exist but no one tries using them on Thanos, except Quill that one time when Thanos foiled his shot with the reality stone. But Gamora and Rocket and who knows who else had advanced weaponry.

[jammindude]

Just ending episode 7 of AOS.   

As cute as Fitz and Simmons are....she made him a sammich.   

[Lonk]

JD: you inspired me to start running through the films (though not in any particular order), and I've been enjoying and even catching jokes I didn't the first 10 times I saw those movies (or maybe I did and just forgot about them).

As cute as Fitz and Simmons are....she made him a sammich.   

[jammindude]

Watched Thor The Dark World last night, and more and more this movie is growing on me.   It has its cheesy moments, but there is so much about it that drives the storyline forward. 

Even my son, who is a comic book nerd and can be (IMHO) unnecessarily critical at times, sat in and made the claim that he thought that The Dark World may be the most underappreciated MCU film, and his unpopular opinion was that it was one of the best MCU films and certainly the best Thor film.     (The way the movies heartlessly executed Sif and the Warriors Three without so much as a single moment of mourning really soured him on Ragnarok)

I think the criticisms come from things like when she finds the cell phone signal in the cave after finding her car keys and then just walks through the portal to find her car.     Meh...I get that it's a little convenient, but being as that they had established the possibility earlier, it didn't bother me that much.    But there were a lot more pros than cons.   Loki's character development, the establishment of the Reality Stone and where it ends up, the relationship between Jane and Frigga (including Frigga's death which becomes even MORE important to Thor's time travel in Endgame).   

I'm starting to side with my son on this one.  It's actually a pretty good movie that gets an unfair shake. 

EDIT - Next is 5 more episodes of AoS followed by the Marvel One-Shot "Hail to the King" (the reveal of the *real* Mandarin) then 4 more episodes of AoS, followed by The Winter Soldier, and then the remainder of Season 1 of AoS.

[jingle.boy]

All good points.

All offset by Malekith, and the most boring/irrelevant/forgettable/ordinary antagonist in the entire batch of 23 films.  Hell, I was more invested in his henchman than him.

[Adami]

Watched Thor The Dark World last night, and more and more this movie is growing on me.   It has its cheesy moments, but there is so much about it that drives the storyline forward. 

Even my son, who is a comic book nerd and can be (IMHO) unnecessarily critical at times, sat in and made the claim that he thought that The Dark World may be the most underappreciated MCU film, and his unpopular opinion was that it was one of the best MCU films and certainly the best Thor film.     (The way the movies heartlessly executed Sif and the Warriors Three without so much as a single moment of mourning really soured him on Ragnarok)

I think the criticisms come from things like when she finds the cell phone signal in the cave after finding her car keys and then just walks through the portal to find her car.     Meh...I get that it's a little convenient, but being as that they had established the possibility earlier, it didn't bother me that much.    But there were a lot more pros than cons.   Loki's character development, the establishment of the Reality Stone and where it ends up, the relationship between Jane and Frigga (including Frigga's death which becomes even MORE important to Thor's time travel in Endgame).   

I'm starting to side with my son on this one.  It's actually a pretty good movie that gets an unfair shake. 

EDIT - Next is 5 more episodes of AoS followed by the Marvel One-Shot "Hail to the King" (the reveal of the *real* Mandarin) then 4 more episodes of AoS, followed by The Winter Soldier, and then the remainder of Season 1 of AoS.

Some good points, but as Jingle pointed out, Malekith really tanks the movie.

Also, it seems you place a high importance of moving the Infinity Saga plot forward. I think Dark World became SO heavily focused on that, that it stopped being a great movie and just started focusing on furthering the future movies. I think they found a much better and even handed way to do that with other films, but that plus Age of Ultron kind of lost that balance.

I like Dark World more than most (though not as much as you) but it's still extremely low on my Marvel list, mostly because the rest are all soooo good.



Also fun note, Sif is not dead according to the MCU.

[jammindude]

Adami,

Well, there are two extremes to be had.   One would be driving the plot with no emotion, the other would be focusing on the emotion at the expense of the plot.    I like it when a movie finds a balance between enhancing the emotions and motivations of the characters, while at the same time still managing to drive the plot forward.   Both are important, and I applaud any efforts to make sure both are covered.  I did mention that TDW drives the plot forward, but I also mentioned character development in my list (Loki, Jane, Frigga), so the fact that this movie managed both is an important point for me.

[faizoff]

Also for Dark World wasn't Alan Taylor the director at complete odds with Kevin Fiege and Marvel exec on how the story and character arcs were to be handled esp with regards to Malekith.

I vaguely recall Christopher Eccelston swearing off doing any MCU again because of drifting far away what they initially promised.

[faizoff]

Found the quote by Alan Taylor

"The Marvel experience was particularly wrenching because I was sort of given absolute freedom while we were shooting, and then in post it turned into a different movie. So, that is something I hope never to repeat and don't wish upon anybody else."


Eccleston doesn't mince words with regards to Thor

"Working on something like GI Joe was horrendous. I just wanted to cut my throat every day. And Thor? Just a gun in your mouth. Gone in 60 Seconds was a good experience. Nic Cage is a gentleman and fantastic actor. But GI Joe and Thor were ...I really paid for being a whore those times."

[bosk1]

The way the movies heartlessly executed Sif and the Warriors Three without so much as a single moment of mourning really soured him on Ragnarok

Just the Warriors Three.  Sif wasn't there.

[jammindude]

Excellent point. Thank you.

[Adami]

GOD DAMMIT I MADE THAT POINT FIRST!

[Adami]

Adami,

Well, there are two extremes to be had.   One would be driving the plot with no emotion, the other would be focusing on the emotion at the expense of the plot.    I like it when a movie finds a balance between enhancing the emotions and motivations of the characters, while at the same time still managing to drive the plot forward.   Both are important, and I applaud any efforts to make sure both are covered.  I did mention that TDW drives the plot forward, but I also mentioned character development in my list (Loki, Jane, Frigga), so the fact that this movie managed both is an important point for me.

It definitely wasn't at either end of the extreme, it was just far enough to one direction that I think it didn't work on many levels. And the Friga stuff payed off in Endgame, but was less impactful JUST in the Dark World. Loki was great, Jane was....fine? I guess? Not sure what character development she had honestly.

It hit some good notes. I liked all the characters that aren't Dark Elves. I actually enjoyed the craziness of the ending battle. I loved Loki and Thor's arcs, even if Thor was pretty dumb to believe Loki died. But the plot was really REALLY thin, and the bad guy was just so awful that it takes the movie down a lot. And, like I said, I liked the movie more the most, but it is the worst Thor movie, and it focused too heavily on setting up future movies than being a good movie.

[jammindude]

LOVE the post-Dark World AoS.   I really wish they could have kept up the marriage of the movies interweaving with the TV show.  Maybe that will be brought back with the D+ shows.     I believe I am beginning to enter the golden age of that ideal.