- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, EIGHT YEARS On.

[TAC]

I would LOVE to read that.

but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick.  I didn't think I was that harsh at all. 

I can't promise to not be a dick.

[wolfking]

I would LOVE to read that.

but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick.  I didn't think I was that harsh at all. 

I can't promise to not be a dick.

It would be a disappointing read if you weren't being a dick. 

[jammindude]

Just got done reading Wolfie's song by song review, and I have to say that you have highlighted the major problem with TA....there a lot of nice "bits" that end up just changing direction for no apparent reason. It's maddening because you feel like if some of these wonderful bits were developed, there would be some great SONGS. But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.

The one song I will disagree on though is A Life Left Behind. That is my favorite song from the entire album, and the best chorus from the entire album.

[wolfking]

Just got done reading Wolfie's song by song review, and I have to say that you have highlighted the major problem with TA....there a lot of nice "bits" that end up just changing direction for no apparent reason. It's maddening because you feel like if some of these wonderful bits were developed, there would be some great SONGS. But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.

The one song I will disagree on though is A Life Left Behind. That is my favorite song from the entire album, and the best chorus from the entire album.

Yep, exactly.

Interesting, maybe I'll revisit that track too then mate.

[jammindude]

I meant to say "less cohesive" but you got the point. Stupid typos...

[Revenge319]

but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick.  I didn't think I was that harsh at all. 

As someone who loves The Astonishing, I don't think you were harsh on it at all. Also, I think I understand one thing that makes me enjoy the album after having read all your thoughts, too, and that's the amount of ideas they bring to this album. I can definitely understand being frustrated that the ideas aren't developed enough or that the songs seem to go in random directions, but reading through this I realize that I tend to love songs that are just rapid-fire idea after idea after idea. As a non-DT example, I think this also explains for me why I love Haken's song Messiah Complex and why a few others don't care much for it.

[Puppies_On_Acid]

Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.

However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.

You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.

[wolfking]

I meant to say "less cohesive" but you got the point. Stupid typos...

Yeah I figured that mate. 

but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick.  I didn't think I was that harsh at all. 

As someone who loves The Astonishing, I don't think you were harsh on it at all. Also, I think I understand one thing that makes me enjoy the album after having read all your thoughts, too, and that's the amount of ideas they bring to this album. I can definitely understand being frustrated that the ideas aren't developed enough or that the songs seem to go in random directions, but reading through this I realize that I tend to love songs that are just rapid-fire idea after idea after idea. As a non-DT example, I think this also explains for me why I love Haken's song Messiah Complex and why a few others don't care much for it.

Thank you.  I could have been worse but didn't want it to come off as a troll fest against it.  I'm glad you got something out of it though.

Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.

However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.

You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.

Exactly, nothing breathes yet the whole thing is so drawn out and long.  As I did point out, there are quite a few cringe moments with these lyrics.

[jammindude]

What's funny is that some of the most cringy moments are the ones that stick in my head. But for all the wrong reasons. It's like, I don't remember it because it gives me musical goosebumps, I remember it like I remember a really stupid moment from a film on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Just going through my top 100 made me realize how "out of place" some parts seem. Like the "We have come to hear him sing..." and "...please don't stop on my account...". The lyrics themselves are so conversational, but they are delivered in an overly sinister way so that it renders them almost comical.

[Puppies_On_Acid]

What's funny is that some of the most cringy moments are the ones that stick in my head. But for all the wrong reasons. It's like, I don't remember it because it gives me musical goosebumps, I remember it like I remember a really stupid moment from a film on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Just going through my top 100 made me realize how "out of place" some parts seem. Like the "We have come to hear him sing..." and "...please don't stop on my account...". The lyrics themselves are so conversational, but they are delivered in an overly sinister way so that it renders them almost comical.

Almost like a Disney cartoon villain.

[Wim Kruithof]

Wolfking, I really enjoyed your song by song breakdown and although I love The Astonishing, I think your overall point is one of my struggles as well. I just love the whole concept, red the novell twice, 've seen many video's on this and the more you're in, the better it digests (at least to me).

But I do also believe lyrics are childish, less ideas but more expended and rip off the nomacs would have done great to the outcome.

But it looked like you really gave it a fresh new chance and I enjoyed your ride...

[nobloodyname]

How good is 2:41 and I love how he is such an avid user of the bridge and neck pickups so frequently, that change in tone at 2:43, switching from the neck to the bridge is so good. 

Just reading through your posts. It's amazing you picked up the, uh, pickup change there. I've just listened three or four times to try to hear it. The part at 2:43 almost sounded creamier to me which is odd for a bridge pickup. Will have to listen at a louder volume later when it isn't 0641 and partner isn't asleep

[Indiscipline]

Kade, that was a very fair and entertaining set of writeups. Tipping me hat.

And thank you for the brilliant John Norum reference.

[Indiscipline]

Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.

However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.

You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.

Every flaw stems back to wanting to be a musical without a musical's resources. Lacking visuals, JP - who is generally a fair lyricist with deep moments, but certainly no Pete Townshend - had to be quite didactict, ironically breaking one of the major musical theatre rules: show, don't tell.

[wolfking]

Wolfking, I really enjoyed your song by song breakdown and although I love The Astonishing, I think your overall point is one of my struggles as well. I just love the whole concept, red the novell twice, 've seen many video's on this and the more you're in, the better it digests (at least to me).

But I do also believe lyrics are childish, less ideas but more expended and rip off the nomacs would have done great to the outcome.

But it looked like you really gave it a fresh new chance and I enjoyed your ride...

Thanks mate, Im glad there are fans that really enjoy it.

[wolfking]

Kade, that was a very fair and entertaining set of writeups. Tipping me hat.

And thank you for the brilliant John Norum reference.

Thanks Alessandro, glad you enjoyed it.  Sorry I trailed off on Petrucci as it went on, it was getting tough.  You probably wanted more around him and not just the solos.  Honestly, I didn't notice a lot on a whole to comment on, its certainly a James and Jordan album.

For some reason I've never gotten that much into Norum but I do like his style a lot, especially the technique I mentioned.

[wolfking]

How good is 2:41 and I love how he is such an avid user of the bridge and neck pickups so frequently, that change in tone at 2:43, switching from the neck to the bridge is so good. 

Just reading through your posts. It's amazing you picked up the, uh, pickup change there. I've just listened three or four times to try to hear it. The part at 2:43 almost sounded creamier to me which is odd for a bridge pickup. Will have to listen at a louder volume later when it isn't 0641 and partner isn't asleep

I just checked again, definitely the note at 2:43 when the tempo changes, you hear that distinct change in tone.  The more I listen I know what you mean but Petrucci is a player that switches between pickups so often I've never seen any other player use the switch in pickups as much as he does.  Check this link of a live version of Glassgow Kiss.

https://youtu.be/e2UrrP11MFs?si=-oZY6gG_07KXZr8Z

Watch from the 3 minute mark.  The amount of times he changes pickups to accentuate a change in tone through the solo is incredible to me.

[nobloodyname]

Nice one, thank you, will check that out. Always love reading your guitar-playing insights.

[wolfking]

That version of GK has become one of my all time fav Peteucci moments.

[Wim Kruithof]

I just checked again, definitely the note at 2:43 when the tempo changes, you hear that distinct change in tone.  The more I listen I know what you mean but Petrucci is a player that switches between pickups so often I've never seen any other player use the switch in pickups as much as he does.

wolfking is DTF's wolf with the ears of an owl...

[WilliamMunny]

Best thing I read in months–thanks Kade!

[emtee]

Most people seem to agree that James gives a great performance on this album. Even if they don't like it very much. I am the opposite. I think this is his most breathy, whispery performance ever and that's the side of his vocals I like the least. I realize he is trying to portray characters but it doesn't work for me.

I've sat through this album probably 10 times. I have tried SO hard to connect with it. Never on headphones though so maybe in the spirit of renewed attempts, I'll give it one final go with the headphones.

[jingle.boy]

The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the conscious decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of.  They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think.  Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.

This is very well stated.  You've articulated it in a way that I just didn't have the energy to do other than "this album is tripe".

the hovering sojourn - yeah cool

Our New World - Harem Scarem style riff here, nice. 

Maybe that's why this is my favorite song of the album!!

Astonishing - Brother can you hear me, oh shit!!! 
Ah fuck, the brother melody.  What an awful, awful finish to the album.  Just awful.

And now you know why I wanted to walk out of the concert when this - THIS - was the encore.  I stuck around hoping/praying they might play SOMETHING more like UAGM, or TSCO, or any 6-8 minute song.  Fuck, I'd have even taken Just Let Me Breathe!  Anything but to end the night having done JUST this album. When they approached the front of the stage for their group waves and bow, I bolted in disgust. I've never hated a concert so much in my life. 

[jingle.boy]

But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.

I agree, but also hope you meant to say it *lacked* cohesion? <ok, phew - just read your correction>

Reflecting back on Kade's review, I wonder if all the NOMAC/seque tracks were inserted so that JP/JR/JM could take a moment to switch instruments (JP/JM) for the key changes, and/or JR to bring up a new program sequence for his instruments??  Like they were planning all along in the studio how big/grand of a production they were going to make it, and then completely forgot about writing a decent album/decent music (as Kade suggested at one point).

However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.

My biggest beef about this from the album right from the moment I was reading the lyrics in the booklet.  I love concept albums, but don't need the concept told to me like a Kindergarten teacher reads a Dr. Suess book to a 4-year old

Most people seem to agree that James gives a great performance on this album. Even if they don't like it very much. I am the opposite. I think this is his most breathy, whispery performance ever and that's the side of his vocals I like the least. I realize he is trying to portray characters but it doesn't work for me.

I've sat through this album probably 10 times. I have tried SO hard to connect with it. Never on headphones though so maybe in the spirit of renewed attempts, I'll give it one final go with the headphones.

I'm "ditto" to all of this.  I reckon you'll just get a more dedicated and focused reason to dislike it.

[jingle.boy]

This is my abridged version of your review of the abridged version

So...this is the review of my abridged version..

Gift of Music - This was the lead single right?       As a stand alone piece I don't see it working, but I didn't mind that on a whole.

Lord Nafaryus - this......isn't very good. 

Savior in the Square -   Oh, what the fuck is going on here? 

When Your Time Has Come - James pulled and shoved in every which direction each minute or so....uhh....and just ends fucking nowhere.

Act of Faythe  Oh fuck!!?!      I knew it, I shouldn't have eaten breakfast before this. 

Three Days - this is just so random though, it's just hard to stay focused on it all.

Ravenskill - Oh, it's gone fucking quiet again ffs.  And still, where the fuck is JP?!  Oh look, another attempt of a climatic exit when it's not needed.

A Tempting Offer - I'm drifting here.  Next please.....

The X Aspect -  Sorry, can't do the last 30 seconds, skip

A New Beginning - 'music calmed your soul just like a drug, remember bug?'  Ah, okay. 6:39, nice Gilmour nod.  Cool ending, that's more like it.

Moment of Betrayal - Finally, a fucking chorus,

Heaven's Cove - Uhh....we're stalling again, Again, fuck....so many ideas there just wasted for the sake of the concept or what they thought was needed.

The Path That Divides - At least it was more interesting and had more energy than most of the similar things going on on CD 1.

The Walking Shadow - I can hear the almost King Diamond influence Tim was talking about.

My Last Farewell - This is pretty sub standard, and unremarkable IMO. 

Hymn of A Thousand Voices - This is nearly over right?  Uh, this is terrible.  Oh look, an attempted cinematic climax.  Music has shown her the way, she lives today. 

[hefdaddy42]

7 Hours of The Astonishing!?!?  I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.

Again?

[bosk1]

Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.

I'm going to take that idea that you and Kade are discussing and state it slightly differently.  It's less that there are a ton of different ideas and more that there are a ton of variations on a much smaller number of ideas, AND they often don't take the time to let those breathe.  A good example to me is the really tasty riff in Ravenskill.  One of the best riffs on the entire album, and I know Kev is very fond of it as well.  But it's gone in less than 30 seconds before they are on to something else!  JP joking about having to bring it back on TA2 aside, man I wish they had spent more time with that.  But it isn't completely gone either.  It's actually just a very clever variation of the soft piano theme that Jordan introduces during the beginning of the song.  And it is also cleverly modified and reused as the vocal melody when Arhys is speaking later in the song.  There's a lot of that on the album where there is clearly very clever writing and use of themes in really cool ways.  But whether that clever, creative writing ultimately translates into being good writing is up for debate, and I get why a good many may fall on the latter rather than the former.  Even though I mostly fall on the former, the fact that there are still plenty of moments like this Ravenskill riff that make me scream, "wait!  Don't change it yet!  Just stay right there for a few minutes because this is really really cool!" shows that maybe there is something to the notion that they were perhaps too ambitious with the writing at times, and we might have gotten a more...accessible, more generally liked album if some things were reigned in and they had another creative voice in the mix after John and Jordan did the first pass at the writing.

[Indiscipline]

^ That is very true regarding the "second act". If you notice, disc one has a perfect balance of themes - recurring or not - because it's the phase featuring what in musical theatre jargon are known as "I am" and "I want" songs, i.e. where characters and their motivations are introduced and lead to intersection. The second disc seems to be incapable to fully develope its many themes and ideas for two reasons, IMO: 1) It's rushed, probably with live show timing in mind and generally because it's much easier to establish a plot than leading it to an effective and consistent conclusion, 2) "second acts" are usually the dynamic/clash phase of a show, in which the composer almost always needs collective singing numbers in order to joust both the plot and the musical themes; the singer in this case - excellent in his many interpretations - can only sing one character at the time, and this limitation greatly influences songwriting and the management of themes in such a dynamic phase. I hope I've managed to make a bit of sense, because I'm brutally synthetising concepts deserving longer and clearer prose. 

[Adami]

Kade, I actually read everything you wrote, I think. I too have struggled with TA. I tried it a few times and it just didn't speak to me and I share a lot of your criticisms and such.

That said, you've inspired me to want to try to and give it a good relisten too. However, I have no idea when I'm going to have the 45 hours free to do it.

[bl5150]

This is what my second listen to The Astonishing looked like Kade 

Moment of Betrayal - Ah okay, we're hearing a small variation of that melody at the start, so I'm interested.  Oh shit, a metal riff, okay.  Oh wait, 'several years ago, in a foreign town.'  Wait wrong song?

Finally, a fucking chorus, like a strong, DT like amazing chorus, wow, I like that.  2:23, cool section this, James sounds on fire.  Goes into that chorus too, this is a fucking great song so far, easily the best thing I've heard so far.  Don't fuck it up boys!

[twosuitsluke]

Here's the real abridged version...

More paino.

Loved it Kade, great read.

[The Realm]

Here's the real abridged version...

More paino.

Loved it Kade, great read.

Yes, the number 1 criticism of The Astonshing - too much paino

[Dedalus]

Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.

I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. 

I didn't continue.

[gzarruk]

Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.

I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. 

I didn't continue.

You're not alone with this. Apart from a couple isolated songs here and there, my only experience with BTBAM was trying to listen to Coma Ecliptic in full back when it was released. I liked the instrumentation, but boy was it hard to get through it, specially with the vocals. Tried two different times and I still could not finish the whole album (and it's a lot shorter than TA). Sometimes, some music is just not for us. I have the same experience whenever I try listening to anything with John Arch on vocals. It's not possible.

[Dedalus]

Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.

I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. 

I didn't continue.

You're not alone with this. Apart from a couple isolated songs here and there, my only experience with BTBAM was trying to listen to Coma Ecliptic in full back when it was released. I liked the instrumentation, but boy was it hard to get through it, specially with the vocals. Tried two different times and I still could not finish the whole album (and it's a lot shorter than TA). Sometimes, some music is just not for us. I have the same experience whenever I try listening to anything with John Arch on vocals. It's not possible.

I understand. John Arch is complicated