- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, EIGHT YEARS On.

[ReaperKK]

Portnoy would have never left so many empty spaces or tolerated half assed prog sections.

I would consider a lot of Neal Morse's output as quantity over quality, at times half-assed prog. Lets also not forget SoA.

[Dedalus]

I am talking about his input as a co-producer and collaborator that the other guys have also mentioned a bunch of times. Even recently JR stated that they missed his 'director'-like' approach to music, songwriting and album structure. He could have steered JP and JR towards the right direction regarding which ideas to scrap, which ones to use and to what extent. He could have also helped a bit with the story and the whole world-building although admittedly the basic premise didn't allow for much.

In general, the record could have been a litte shorter and more dynamic. And maybe a little less lame at times. It is definetely just a hypothesis, but given what the other DT members have said repeatedly over the years about his contribution in the studio, I would call it an estimated one.

I see where you're coming from, but correct me if I'm wrong, Portnoy was there to produce SC (just one album as an example), right?

Repentance and The Ministry of Lost Souls are both over 25 minutes long. Where was Portnoy to, well, mop up the fat?

This self-indulgent tendency follows DT (and many prog-related bands), with or without MP there.

[TAC]

I am talking about his input as a co-producer and collaborator that the other guys have also mentioned a bunch of times. Even recently JR stated that they missed his 'director'-like' approach to music, songwriting and album structure. He could have steered JP and JR towards the right direction regarding which ideas to scrap, which ones to use and to what extent. He could have also helped a bit with the story and the whole world-building although admittedly the basic premise didn't allow for much.

In general, the record could have been a litte shorter and more dynamic. And maybe a little less lame at times. It is definetely just a hypothesis, but given what the other DT members have said repeatedly over the years about his contribution in the studio, I would call it an estimated one.

I would call it an overestimated one.

I think you are way overstating the positive attributes of MP's effect. How many times did people around here complain about extra long instrumental parts, unneeded sections, etc...
...and this was before MP left.

Obviously, MP changes a dynamic for sure, but the band came up with new music just fine without him.
And don't forget about how Jordan talked about NOT being restricted by the process post MP.

[Dedalus]

I would consider a lot of Neal Morse's output as quantity over quality, at times half-assed prog. Lets also not forget SoA.

There was a bit of a disagreement during the creation of the Neal Morse Band's TSOAD because Mike didn't want a double album, since DT had released a double album.

Well, Neal won and we got a long double album.

And what's next? Another long double album. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I am talking about his input as a co-producer and collaborator that the other guys have also mentioned a bunch of times. Even recently JR stated that they missed his 'director'-like' approach to music, songwriting and album structure. He could have steered JP and JR towards the right direction regarding which ideas to scrap, which ones to use and to what extent. He could have also helped a bit with the story and the whole world-building although admittedly the basic premise didn't allow for much.

In general, the record could have been a litte shorter and more dynamic. And maybe a little less lame at times. It is definetely just a hypothesis, but given what the other DT members have said repeatedly over the years about his contribution in the studio, I would call it an estimated one.

First, I don't think TA would have happened with MP in the band. Correct me if I am wrong but he even made a bit of a snide remark after it had come out.

Second, I am not really sure what JR is talking about specifically and I do not think anyone else does either. Mike probably has his own style of doing things but I am not sure what the director like approach means or where I can find an example of this. As was pointed out on another thread the song structures had become extremely similar towards the end of his 1st era and were criticized over bloat. Now we had a similar conversation about Night Terror, the first song back. So what I DO know is that aspects of records he had a hand in (not saying it's because of him) continue to be criticized for various things like this. I don't see it as a given the Astonishing would have been more concise.

[KevShmev]

First, I don't think TA would have happened with MP in the band. Correct me if I am wrong but he even made a bit of a snide remark after it had come out.

Second, I am not really sure what JR is talking about specifically and I do not think anyone else does either. Mike probably has his own style of doing things but I am not sure what the director like approach means or where I can find an example of this. As was pointed out on another thread the song structures had become extremely similar towards the end of his 1st era and were criticized over bloat. Now we had a similar conversation about Night Terror, the first song back. So what I DO know is that aspects of records he had a hand in (not saying it's because of him) continue to be criticized for various things like this. I don't see it as a given the Astonishing would have been more concise.

Maybe not as concise, but maybe have a bit more variety.  And he might have had gotten into Petrucci's ear about how stupid the story was and we might have gotten a different one altogether with the music generally unchanged.  For as much as I like The Astonishing, warts and all, it definitely falls into the "I find it best to ignore the lyrics/storyline as much as I can" box.

[hunnus2000]

First, I don't think TA would have happened with MP in the band. Correct me if I am wrong but he even made a bit of a snide remark after it had come out.

Second, I am not really sure what JR is talking about specifically and I do not think anyone else does either. Mike probably has his own style of doing things but I am not sure what the director like approach means or where I can find an example of this. As was pointed out on another thread the song structures had become extremely similar towards the end of his 1st era and were criticized over bloat. Now we had a similar conversation about Night Terror, the first song back. So what I DO know is that aspects of records he had a hand in (not saying it's because of him) continue to be criticized for various things like this. I don't see it as a given the Astonishing would have been more concise.

I tend to agree with this and at the very least it would not have been labeled as a DT album.

I love the album I can see why people think the story is sappy, but it's basically the same story as Jesus Christ in the bible.

[Uncle Rico]

Maybe not as concise, but maybe have a bit more variety.  And he might have had gotten into Petrucci's ear about how stupid the story was and we might have gotten a different one altogether with the music generally unchanged.  For as much as I like The Astonishing, warts and all, it definitely falls into the "I find it best to ignore the lyrics/storyline as much as I can" box.

Absolutely. The lyrics and overall story are totally cringey, silly, sappy, cheesy, and ultimately dumb as fuck. Kinda makes it hard to appreciate the music, for me at least. I like a few tunes off the album, but man...those lyrics make it difficult.

EDIT: I don't mind the album being softer; basically their softest album. I think if the lyrics/story had been better, and they had condensed it down to 12–14 songs, it would've been a lot better.

[Dedalus]

Absolutely. The lyrics and overall story are totally cringey, silly, sappy, cheesy, and ultimately dumb as fuck. Kinda makes it hard to appreciate the music, for me at least. I like a few tunes off the album, but man...those lyrics make it difficult.

The lyrics don't help, but let's be honest, that's not the biggest obstacle to the album. There's a whole context and a multitude of things that became obstacles, and the lyrics and story are just part of that.

2112 is equally bad if we're cold and analyze the story told. There are great similarities: a chosen one, the role of music as a transformative element, totalitarianism. The tackiness is also very strong. And 2112 has an aggravating factor, which is the total lack of character development, because there's not enough time for it.

In short, the lyrical content of 2112 isn't good enough, but that didn't stop it from being a Rush classic. Because probably a good part of the public doesn't give a damn about the bad lyrics of 2112 (it's worth mentioning that just saying that the canonized Peart wrote bad lyrics would put me to death in some Rushian communities  ).

So the lyrics/story are part of a larger context that caused the album to be widely rejected, but I don't think a great story and great lyrics would have changed TA's fate (or Faythe  ).

[KevShmev]

2112 is brilliant because of the dual meaning, as I feel the lyrics are not only telling a futuristic story, but were also symbolic of Rush's fight for their artistic freedom from the record company.  By putting a sidelong epic on Side 1 of the LP, which was their make or break record and a decision the record company could not overule (putting the epic on Side 1), that was them telling the record company, "We have assumed control!" 

[Dedalus]

2112 is brilliant because of the dual meaning, as I feel the lyrics are not only telling a futuristic story, but were also symbolic of Rush's fight for their artistic freedom from the record company.  By putting a sidelong epic on Side 1 of the LP, which was their make or break record and a decision the record company could not overule (putting the epic on Side 1), that was them telling the record company, "We have assumed control!" 

Yes, you're right about that. As an analogy to what Rush was going through after the commercial failure of Caress of Steel and the pressure from the music industry. That's a good point.

But that doesn't change the fact that you have a vocalist singing bizarre parts like:

"We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Our great computers
Fill the hallowed halls
We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life
Are held within our walls".

or

"I know it's most unusual
To come before you so
But I've found an ancient miracle
I thought that you should know

Listen to my music
And hear what it can do
There's something here as strong as life
I know that it will reach you"

So analogy aside, the literalness of the story is pretty bad.

[TAC]

2112 is brilliant because of the dual meaning, as I feel the lyrics are not only telling a futuristic story, but were also symbolic of Rush's fight for their artistic freedom from the record company.  By putting a sidelong epic on Side 1 of the LP, which was their make or break record and a decision the record company could not overule (putting the epic on Side 1), that was them telling the record company, "We have assumed control!" 

Did not Dream Theater experience the same thing?

[Awaken]

Absolutely. The lyrics and overall story are totally cringey, silly, sappy, cheesy, and ultimately dumb as fuck. Kinda makes it hard to appreciate the music, for me at least. I like a few tunes off the album, but man...those lyrics make it difficult.

EDIT: I don't mind the album being softer; basically their softest album. I think if the lyrics/story had been better, and they had condensed it down to 12–14 songs, it would've been a lot better.

I really love the chances Jordan and John took with this album but totally recognize where you're coming from.  Musically I think it's much stronger than many people give it credit for, but again, I get why I read so many 'I can't make it through the album' comments.  Having this album trimmed to the 12-14 song range, as you suggested above, would have made a massive improvement on the end product (IMO). 

The live presentation, however, was awesome and I'm stoked I got to experience that performance with my son.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Absolutely. The lyrics and overall story are totally cringey, silly, sappy, cheesy, and ultimately dumb as fuck. Kinda makes it hard to appreciate the music, for me at least. I like a few tunes off the album, but man...those lyrics make it difficult.

EDIT: I don't mind the album being softer; basically their softest album. I think if the lyrics/story had been better, and they had condensed it down to 12–14 songs, it would've been a lot better.

I'm directionally with you on TA but I think there are better ways to express your dislike for it than to describe aspects of it as 'dumb as fuck.'

[Uncle Rico]

I'm directionally with you on TA but I think there are better ways to express your dislike for it than to describe aspects of it as 'dumb as fuck.'

Well, for what it's worth, I didn't mean it as an insult. Sometimes I'll say something, and one of my music buddies will say "that's dumb as fuck", or vice versa, and we just laugh. It's just ball busting; not intended as a serious insult. In other words the lyrics are really silly.

[KevShmev]

Did not Dream Theater experience the same thing?

Yeah, but unless you are going to tell me that Scenes from a Memory is also secretly about their fight for creative freedom, I am not sure what the relevance is with regards to what we were talking about. 

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

unless you are going to tell me that Scenes from a Memory is also secretly about their fight for creative freedom,

That album was made after MP and JP reasserted control of the band after the label began to erode their sound with too many outside producers and input. The plotline isn't about it obviously but the music very much was made in exactly the spirit of this. They are celebrating their creative freedom (that they just won) and creating their best album (and one of the greatest prog albums ever) in the process.

EDIT: The tone of my post was meant to be friendly. Unsure if you knew what I mentioned, was all. Just want to make sure the Taylor Swift fans finding their way to DT know the entire story!

[KevShmev]

That album was made after MP and JP reasserted control of the band after the label began to erode their sound with too many outside producers and input. The plotline isn't about it obviously but the music very much was made in exactly the spirit of this. They are celebrating their creative freedom (that they just won) and creating their best album (and one of the greatest prog albums ever) in the process.

EDIT: The tone of my post was meant to be friendly. Unsure if you knew what I mentioned, was all. Just want to make sure the Taylor Swift fans finding their way to DT know the entire story!

Damn, you're clueless, but always good for a laugh, I will give you that.   

[TAC]

That album was made after MP and JP reasserted control

You might say they assumed control.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

You might say the assumed control.

Attention all planets of the solar federation
Attention all planets of the solar federation
Attention all planets of the solar federation
We have assumed control
We have assumed control
We have assumed control

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Damn, you're clueless, but always good for a laugh, I will give you that.   

  was there something inaccurate about my post?

[Skeever]

was there something inaccurate about my post?

Seemed pretty accurate to me

[Uncle Rico]

Yeah, but unless you are going to tell me that Scenes from a Memory is also secretly about their fight for creative freedom, I am not sure what the relevance is with regards to what we were talking about. 

That would apply more to Falling Into Infinity. I believe it was after that where Portnoy basically told the label to get the fuck out of their way and let them just get back to doing their thing, on their own terms.

[Pebsie]

I seem to remember a fairly prominent vocal glitch in "A Life Left Behind", right at the end:

Heed my words, justice will be ser..... ... ... ved

But listening to it today on Apple Music the issue is no longer there. Did I imagine this or have they somehow uploaded a fixed version years after the fact? This is the first time I've ever heard the album without it and I always look out for it. Anyone else remember this?

[hefdaddy42]

For anyone who thinks that MP would have helped lessen the bloat on The Astonishing, I give to you Black Clouds & Silver Linings and ask WTF are you talking about

[Dream Team]

^ "mic drop"

[durga2112]

I seem to remember a fairly prominent vocal glitch in "A Life Left Behind", right at the end:

Heed my words, justice will be ser..... ... ... ved

But listening to it today on Apple Music the issue is no longer there. Did I imagine this or have they somehow uploaded a fixed version years after the fact? This is the first time I've ever heard the album without it and I always look out for it. Anyone else remember this?

I just listened to the copy that I ripped from my CD 8 years ago, and there is no such glitch on it. It must have been a bad file on whatever platform you were listening to it on (was it Apple Music the entire time?).

[DTA]

W

I seem to remember a fairly prominent vocal glitch in "A Life Left Behind", right at the end:

Heed my words, justice will be ser..... ... ... ved

But listening to it today on Apple Music the issue is no longer there. Did I imagine this or have they somehow uploaded a fixed version years after the fact? This is the first time I've ever heard the album without it and I always look out for it. Anyone else remember this?

Wasn't the vocal glitch on A Tempting Offer? I never remembered one being on A Life Left Behind.

[Pebsie]

W
Wasn't the vocal glitch on A Tempting Offer? I never remembered one being on A Life Left Behind.

YES, you're right. It's "take the evening to deci..... de". Same character and similar delivery, my bad.

[TheCountOfNYC]

For anyone who thinks that MP would have helped lessen the bloat on The Astonishing, I give to you Black Clouds & Silver Linings and ask WTF are you talking about

Mike Portnoy also talked about how they considered cutting two songs from Six Degrees when they weren't sure if they would be allowed to do a double album, and not once did they think about trimming some of the fat from TGP, TGD, and the title track to make everything fit on one disc, so yeah, let's not pretend MP is the Great Destroyer of Musical Bloat.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

The Astonishing is my second favorite album, after Scenes From A Memory. It's a beautiful album.

Welcome to the forums!

[KevShmev]

was there something inaccurate about my post?

Check what I bolded in your post I quoted.  That's what I was laughing at. (which I thought was clear)

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

I guess I don't understand. Isn't the point of being a fan to share lore with other fans? Just wanted to point out the context of that album as it related to DT and their label. As a Taylor fan you'd probably connect with that in regards to the entire "Taylor's Version" project.

[KevShmev]

The point got lost somewhere in the Rush/DT thing.  While DT obviously had the same issue as Rush (fighting for creative control), I don't remember them writing a song that addressed it per se.  Rush wrote 2112, a fictional story that was also about their fight for total creative freedom, when they were being pushed to conform or be cast out; DT wrote Scenes from a Memory (incredible album, but not about DT's situation at all).   Lyrically speaking here.

[Dedalus]

Rush wrote 2112, a fictional story that was also about their fight for total creative freedom, when they were being pushed to conform or be cast out;

While I enjoyed seeing Subdivision's lyrics here, it's worth mentioning that the record company wasn't pressuring them to conform. They wanted more sales and profit. So making an album with a similar structure to their previous one, which had failed to sell, didn't seem to make sense.

But since the world is a place full of surprises, the album did well commercially. Soon the record company stopped pressuring them. As long as you sell, you can do whatever the hell you want.

It's funny that Neil was feeling pressured by an inherently capitalist logic (making a profit) and to do so he decided to write a fable inspired by Ayn Rand, who in turn wrote fables to portray the evildoers of the Soviet Union. What a delightful mess!