Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo

[bill1971]

I am sure he thinks this is just rock and roll swagger, which is not surprising given that he is a huge fan of Kiss (assholes) and Van Halen (Roth and EVH are two of the biggest douchebags in rock history), but it just comes off as condescending and will just piss off his target audience (which isn't that big in the first place).  I mean, a 50-year old man is that really worried about swagger and acting tough.

Can someone please knock some sense into Portnoy and tell him to focus mainly on Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors?

The "roll and roll swagger" element is what raised the red flag for me in that first press release.  Not something that appeals to me. Generally not into bands that do that.

Maybe Jordan being a better player isn't the only reason they wanted to replace Derek.

[ytserush]

I might have grated on some people (unintentionally) but I was Firewings over there. I love all the forum members on my Facebook, and even text some regularly - if anyone wants to add me on social media just send me a PM. I love all the regulars on the MP forum and enjoy the people here as well. I would like to discuss Mike's projects with likeminded individuals on more than one place (not that there's anything wrong with this thread, I just like multiple outlets).

Also I apologize if I pissed anyone off ever. I feel like I had a hand in the forum getting shut down and I feel bad.

I don't think it's your fault really.

Don't do social media so I'm not involved in any of that stuff.

The only surprise is the timing. We were lucky to have the site as long as we did. He lost interest in it a long time ago. Much easier to post on Twitter and Facebook I guess. There really was no financial or promotional benefit for him to keep it running so it was a gift for a while there. I'm sure it didn't help when he discovered that this place drew more traffic.

Fortunately there are still a few forums left to have thoughtful discussions.

[Bertielee]

I am sure he thinks this is just rock and roll swagger, which is not surprising given that he is a huge fan of Kiss (assholes) and Van Halen (Roth and EVH are two of the biggest douchebags in rock history), but it just comes off as condescending and will just piss off his target audience (which isn't that big in the first place).  I mean, a 50-year old man is that really worried about swagger and acting tough.

Can someone please knock some sense into Portnoy and tell him to focus mainly on Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors?

The "roll and roll swagger" element is what raised the red flag for me in that first press release.  Not something that appeals to me. Generally not into bands that do that.

Maybe Jordan being a better player isn't the only reason they wanted to replace Derek.

Look, if I remember correctly, DS was, from the first, only a keyboardist to be replaced, because they already had in mind JR for DT, but the guy had other commitments or didn't want to join at the time or sthg to that effect. As for JR being a better player than DS : technically, I think so, but at the end of the day, it all amounts to personal taste. I personally prefer JR on all aspects, but that's just me. To conclude, I don't know for the guys in DT, but DS's r'n'r swagger irritated me a lot!

B.Lee

[ytserush]

One of the odd outcomes of this debacle is that I now know that Planet X was so great mostly because of Donati. Too lazy to find it, but didn't somebody post that DS said he didn't enjoy playing the Planet X tunes?

Really?  I love Planet X and think it's some of Derek's best work but I know nothing about how the band was formed and how they got on.

But then there was no rock and roll swagger in Planet X so maybe that was his problem?

[rumborak]

I listened to Donati's In This Life album yesterday, and yeah, you can tell that the"crazy prog" of Planet X was Virgil's making. That said, I think Derek's big contribution to the project might have been to not lose track of the hook and melody of a song, something that In This Life is guilty of. Derek might have served the same role as Steven Wilson with Guthrie Govan. Guthrie always wanted to go off the rails, but Steven reigned him in, producing some of Guthrie's best guitar work.

[ytserush]

it has got to be tough to get a new band off the ground. So I think that is adding to MPS frustration. He was in the midst of a well-established band and now he is continuously trying to strike gold again and coming up short. I think the most recent Neal Morse band double  album was although overhyped had some really good songs in it. I think I'd rather see him focus on that with Neal Morse. Plus Neal Morse is more of a stable guy and a better influence and I think reels Mike in. It also has Eric Gillette who I think is a truly great talent and is Young and upcoming.

These days it is nearly impossible to build something from the ground up and it doesn't matter who you are. That's the "industry" such as it is right now.

[Stadler]

- For all the "deep reveal" of the time at 5:00, I notice that not ONE PERSON HERE has mentioned the point at 10:00 or so where Mike was clear that he took responsibility and when he backed off the "magic happened" (a direct quote, to be found at 10:15 to 10:17). 

Why would anyone necessarily have mentioned it?  It isn't relevant to the point Kev was making.  If you want to cite it for something to make your own point, cool.  But it really has nothing to do with what Kev was saying.

I was simply observing that no one bothered to cite the part where he acted mature, adult and compromises for the better of the band.   

- I'm deeply saddened by the close of the forum, but at the end of the day, it's HIS site.  Who cares "why"?   

Judging from a lot of the posts here and on social media, A LOT of people care about why.  It matters.

Doesn't make them all right.   Seems a lot of people care about the Kardashians.  Do they matter?  And more specific to this, he cited his reasons, and just as many people thing they have their own insight into why he closed it.  He's made comments that the forum was a burden for a long time now, and it was clearly not his priority.  He likes the Twitter. 

Why should he matain a harbor, a port, for enemy ships?  I wouldn't do it.

And this is really the crux of the matter--Mike failed to realize that it never was a "port for enemy ships."  The vast majority of people of his site were fans and wanted to support him.  Being critical, voicing disagreement, or not liking some of his music or some of the things he has done does not make one an "enemy."  The forum community he had was far more of a positive promotional tool than a negative one, but he failed to see that and take advantage of it.  Me made the same mistake 10 years ago when he shut down the forum at DT.net.  He didn't realize what a vital and vibrant community it was, and that it would resurface here and STILL be a huge promotion machine for him and his projects (primarily DT).  The rest of the band DID realize it and eventually got behind and supported what we are doing here.  And, for the most part, when a negative or critical trend emerges and they get down about it, they see it for what it is and eventually move on from it and get back to "the fans on the forum are critical of X, but they are still behind us."  Mike's unwillingness or inability to get into that mindset is, IMO, a flaw and a mistake.  But it's his to make.

In recent weeks though, it was.  It wasn't just about criticism of the work, though that too.   There were people - not suggesting anyone in particular; this is not to be construed as a personal attack of any kind - that took it upon themselves to aggressively comment on HIM and his behavior.   

I happen to agree with you that commentary on the work should be a two-way street, and I happen to think that perhaps there is some truth in what el Barto said.

Through all this crap I'm *still* looking forward to the music from Sons of Apollo. I just wish it didn't come with quite so much baggage.

Along these lines, this reinforces what I said about Dream Theater post-2010; it became fun to be a fan of the band again!  In the mid to late 00s, Portnoy's presence and personality became so overbearing, whether it was in interviews or a making of DVD, that it sucked a lot of the fun out of being a fan, at least for me.  Once he was gone, it was fun to be a fan again. 

I'll NEVER understand this, but it is YOUR opinion.

Actually, it is an opinion shared by MANY (including me).  So it might behoove you to try to understand it.  That isn't to say you should necessarily agree with it.  But understanding it has value.

I'm just the opposite; it became for lack of a better word, boring.  There seemed to be a wall now between the band and the fans, at least for me.  The Astonishing show I saw was so... clinical and cold and precise - the only exception being Petrucci's solo at the end of Act I (I think) - and honestly, if and when I think of that show, I immediately think of sitting in a bar with el Barto, and walking around the venue after the show because one of our other friends had it in her head to try to meet the band.   They're still a great band - they certainly didn't forget how to play - and they still are a first day buy, but they have lost their elite "top three or five bands I like" status, but, it must be said, the slot was taken by Neal Morse and his band. 

I happen to agree that it behooves (great word, by the way) us all to understand others' positions.   But I don't at all think that the "number of people" that hold that opinion gives it any real substantive cred.  I'm pretty much the lone wolf here in terms of balancing the commentary against Mike, and that doesn't 'make my opinion any less valid.  I did, after all, happen to call the "Derek is joking, and pulling DTF's leg" point, as evidenced by his retweet saying just that a couple days ago.

Anyhow, more ON TOPIC, I've had Signs of the Time stuck in my head for a couple of days.  Hope I don't get burned out on it by the time the album comes out.  That's the downside of listening too much to a lead single or teaser track--sometimes, it gets too much exposure in isolation so that fans quickly tire of it once the album is finally released.  Still looking forward to the album.  Again, funny how after almost a year of absolute musical drought, probably the only candidates for new album purchases for me this year all come on the same date.  Late October should be fun.

I'm really interested in hearing the album as a whole.   I think one of the things about prog metal (and prog in general) is that the sum is usually greater than the individual parts.  I think it is going to be an interesting listen.  I would venture that it's at least possible that songs like Signs of the Time and Coming Home are better in context. 

[Bertielee]

And Stadler has returned to the forum... As for being "pretty much the lone wolf here in terms of balancing the commentary against Mike", it's not true : there are other people here doing it, beginning with Bosk or Ariich for instance (not the least people on DTF you may notice).

B.Lee

[ytserush]

I wouldn't be surprised if Portnoy came to the realization that he wanted to lead a band again during the making of TSOAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22mDDUizmxE

-around the 5-minute mark, and then again later around the 9-minute mark, where Portnoy talks about how he fought like hell to keep the album a single because of how it would affect him, a fight he lost.
-around 7:10, where Neal gets on him a bit about the snare sound. As much as he loves Neal as a friend and a musician, Portnoy's body language during that just reeks of someone who hates someone else telling him what to do or that the way he did it wasn't the best way (which I am sure happens a lot in the recording process).

I think that video actually shows great maturity of MP. He was having an off day(we have all been there) came in the next day and realized he made a mistake. On top of that he said that if they listed to him the record would not have been as good because the album was allowed to go where it wanted to go.

On a side not, Neal seems very mature and is an amazing talent and prolific writer. I am not a big fan of all of his music but I have tremendous respect for him.

That's the creative process at work. Not something fans usually get to experience.

[ytserush]

I am sure he thinks this is just rock and roll swagger, which is not surprising given that he is a huge fan of Kiss (assholes) and Van Halen (Roth and EVH are two of the biggest douchebags in rock history), but it just comes off as condescending and will just piss off his target audience (which isn't that big in the first place).  I mean, a 50-year old man is that really worried about swagger and acting tough.

Can someone please knock some sense into Portnoy and tell him to focus mainly on Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors?

The "roll and roll swagger" element is what raised the red flag for me in that first press release.  Not something that appeals to me. Generally not into bands that do that.

Maybe Jordan being a better player isn't the only reason they wanted to replace Derek.

Can't speak to what the band wanted.
But I know for me after seeing him in the band live from '94 to '98, that aspect was a total turnoff to me. To be fair though, his "personality" didn't happen until he was made a full member of the band.

[Nekov]

- I'm deeply saddened by the close of the forum, but at the end of the day, it's HIS site.  Who cares "why"?   

Judging from a lot of the posts here and on social media, A LOT of people care about why.  It matters.

Doesn't make them all right.   Seems a lot of people care about the Kardashians.  Do they matter?  And more specific to this, he cited his reasons, and just as many people thing they have their own insight into why he closed it.  He's made comments that the forum was a burden for a long time now, and it was clearly not his priority.  He likes the Twitter. 

Since when is caring for why something happened being wrong? And who are you to judge wether people are right or wrong? If people care why then they have the right to ask the question and try to get an answer.

As for the Kardashians, yes, they matter wether you like it or not. They might not matter to you, but they certainly do to a lot of people. Is it ridiculuos? I would say it is but the fact that something doesn't matter to me doesn't mean it doesn't matter one way or another for someone else.

[bosk1]

- For all the "deep reveal" of the time at 5:00, I notice that not ONE PERSON HERE has mentioned the point at 10:00 or so where Mike was clear that he took responsibility and when he backed off the "magic happened" (a direct quote, to be found at 10:15 to 10:17). 

Why would anyone necessarily have mentioned it?  It isn't relevant to the point Kev was making.  If you want to cite it for something to make your own point, cool.  But it really has nothing to do with what Kev was saying.

I was simply observing that no one bothered to cite the part where he acted mature, adult and compromises for the better of the band.   

Which, again, was unnecessary because nobody was even attempting to argue that he had NOT acted mature in that scenario.  Kev's point was simply that the two parts he cited seemed to be indicators of Mike's desire to always be in charge and may have been a realization by him that he needed a new project that really was HIS.  That is a completely neutral observation, whether or not it may be a correct one, and doesn't address any maturity or immaturity.  You are citing a problem that doesn't exist.

- I'm deeply saddened by the close of the forum, but at the end of the day, it's HIS site.  Who cares "why"?   

Judging from a lot of the posts here and on social media, A LOT of people care about why.  It matters.

Doesn't make them all right.   Seems a lot of people care about the Kardashians.  Do they matter?  And more specific to this, he cited his reasons, and just as many people thing they have their own insight into why he closed it.  He's made comments that the forum was a burden for a long time now, and it was clearly not his priority.  He likes the Twitter. 

I didn't say it makes them "right."  I said it matters.  And it matters because a number of people in the relevant pool (i.e., the fan base) care about it.  An artist understanding and relating to how the fan base feels is important, and any artist that willfully ignores or fails to understand that is doing themselves a disservice.

Through all this crap I'm *still* looking forward to the music from Sons of Apollo. I just wish it didn't come with quite so much baggage.

Along these lines, this reinforces what I said about Dream Theater post-2010; it became fun to be a fan of the band again!  In the mid to late 00s, Portnoy's presence and personality became so overbearing, whether it was in interviews or a making of DVD, that it sucked a lot of the fun out of being a fan, at least for me.  Once he was gone, it was fun to be a fan again. 

I'll NEVER understand this, but it is YOUR opinion.

Actually, it is an opinion shared by MANY (including me).  So it might behoove you to try to understand it.  That isn't to say you should necessarily agree with it.  But understanding it has value.

...

I happen to agree that it behooves (great word, by the way) us all to understand others' positions.   But I don't at all think that the "number of people" that hold that opinion gives it any real substantive cred. 

Similar to my point above, the number of people that feel a certain way doesn't give the position itself "cred" or make the opinion "right."  But if a significant number of people in the fan base feel a certain way, the fact that that feeling exists is worthy of consideration because failing to give it consideration has great potential to damage Portnoy's relationship with this fans even further.

I'm pretty much the lone wolf here in terms of balancing the commentary against Mike, and that doesn't 'make my opinion any less valid. 

But the problem is that your commentary is anything but "balanced."  It is only "balanced" in terms of you taking the opposite extreme of those you criticize.

Anyhow, more ON TOPIC, I've had Signs of the Time stuck in my head for a couple of days.  Hope I don't get burned out on it by the time the album comes out.  That's the downside of listening too much to a lead single or teaser track--sometimes, it gets too much exposure in isolation so that fans quickly tire of it once the album is finally released.  Still looking forward to the album.  Again, funny how after almost a year of absolute musical drought, probably the only candidates for new album purchases for me this year all come on the same date.  Late October should be fun.

I'm really interested in hearing the album as a whole.   I think one of the things about prog metal (and prog in general) is that the sum is usually greater than the individual parts.  I think it is going to be an interesting listen.  I would venture that it's at least possible that songs like Signs of the Time and Coming Home are better in context. 

Quite possible.  That is often the case.  But even out of context, they're perfectly fine songs, even if not what the album was originally advertised as being. 

[Stadler]

- I'm deeply saddened by the close of the forum, but at the end of the day, it's HIS site.  Who cares "why"?   

Judging from a lot of the posts here and on social media, A LOT of people care about why.  It matters.

Doesn't make them all right.   Seems a lot of people care about the Kardashians.  Do they matter?  And more specific to this, he cited his reasons, and just as many people thing they have their own insight into why he closed it.  He's made comments that the forum was a burden for a long time now, and it was clearly not his priority.  He likes the Twitter. 

Since when is caring for why something happened being wrong? And who are you to judge wether people are right or wrong? If people care why then they have the right to ask the question and try to get an answer.

As for the Kardashians, yes, they matter wether you like it or not. They might not matter to you, but they certainly do to a lot of people. Is it ridiculuos? I would say it is but the fact that something doesn't matter to me doesn't mean it doesn't matter one way or another for someone else.

Respectfully, I'm not saying anyone is wrong.  Just the opposite.  I do, though, feel that this topic seems to engender people picking and choosing facts to suit the preconceived argument, rather than building the argument from scratch from all the facts.  That's not specifically against any one member, nor is it specific to any one argument.  It's a general observation and not a personal attack.   What I was really arguing against is the idea that it might be determinative that more people are taking one position over another.  It's like going to a pro-vegetarian forum and asking about the taste of veal and wondering why most of the people think it tastes horrible.

The Kardashian reference wasn't meant to diss them or anyone that follows them, but to provide an example where perhaps it might be debatable what that worth really is, and whether it's necessarily a good thing overall.   I could have used any of a number of more incendiary examples; prior to about five years ago, far more people were against gay marriage than before, for example. 

[gmillerdrake]

But even out of context, they're perfectly fine songs, even if not what the album was originally advertised as being.

That's the underlying 'issue' I have. When DS starting billing themselves as the new kings of prog and it was prog this and prog that....these two songs don't scream prog at all and I think that's where I personally started to become a bit skeptical about this project.

Signs of Times is a pretty cool song actually...at least musically. I'm still adjusting to the vocals in it and can at least tolerate them in it. And there's certainly prog elements. Coming Home on the other hand...well........

If the album populates in my Apple Music Service I'll give it a listen or two. I'm sure there will be some cool segments and maybe even better songs. But the entire 'publicity' aspect of this project is what has put a bad taste in my mouth about it. Not the actual music.

[The Walrus]

@Stadler - it's clear that unless we're balls deep in Mike's ass over everything he does like that Marc guy over on his Facebook and Twitter (Actual quotes: "Coming Home rules!! I'm going to have such a BONER when they play it live!!!" and "James LaBrie, most arrogant miserable bastard ever!!"), he doesn't want to hear any criticism, constructive or not. Hell even with Neal Morse in that clip, despite him taking responsibility later, it's clear he's visibly frustrated at being told what something should sound like even though it isn't his band to call the shots.

So I ask you, why can we not judge the behavior of a self-proclaimed 'control freak' who's admitted he can't handle the Internet, who's grown increasingly defensive and lashes out against all feedback that isn't showering him with praise, who calls this entire forum 'trolls and haters,' who tries to control conversations about his music but does nothing against insults towards bandmates he spent 20+ years with, and then shuts his own forum down because he's too insecure to just let fans - and this is important - do what fans do?

[Stadler]

Which, again, was unnecessary because nobody was even attempting to argue that he had NOT acted mature in that scenario.  Kev's point was simply that the two parts he cited seemed to be indicators of Mike's desire to always be in charge and may have been a realization by him that he needed a new project that really was HIS.  That is a completely neutral observation, whether or not it may be a correct one, and doesn't address any maturity or immaturity.  You are citing a problem that doesn't exist.

The overabundance of negative comments about Mike here may or may not be a "problem that doesn't exist", but I think it's fair to point out that when there is a CLEAR example of him acting in opposition to the general trend that we've seen over the past several pages here as well as elsewhere, no one bothered to note it.  It was an observation.

I didn't say it makes them "right."  I said it matters.  And it matters because a number of people in the relevant pool (i.e., the fan base) care about it.  An artist understanding and relating to how the fan base feels is important, and any artist that willfully ignores or fails to understand that is doing themselves a disservice.

Fair point; here's an honest question for you, though:  if it is necessary for an artist to understand and relate to how the fan base feels - notwithstanding that most artists make art independent of what the "fans" want; they follow their muse - is it equally necessary for that fanbase to understand and relate to how the artist feels?   There was a long string of posts here where it was hammered home that we can't worry about context, we can't worry about other things, only the exact words that the artist puts out there.   That seems to imply to me that there is no need to understand or relate or perhaps look at things from a different perspective.  Isn't it at least a two way street?  If it's not, should it be?

I'm pretty much the lone wolf here in terms of balancing the commentary against Mike, and that doesn't 'make my opinion any less valid. 

But the problem is that your commentary is anything but "balanced."  It is only "balanced" in terms of you taking the opposite extreme of those you criticize.

I disagree with that respectfully, but strenuously.  Being "balanced" isn't about where you fall on the spectrum, it's how you deal with those pieces of information that don't fit neatly in your model.   I don't ignore the bad, and I don't ignore the parts that don't fit my argument.  I'm not at all blind to Mike's behaviors, and I don't like nor condone all of them.   Where I am different - and therefore I feel balanced - is that I don't let my emotions guide what the response is.  Whether Derek is 'funny' or not, or 'pisses me off' or not (the words in quotes are not a direct quote, or implying that anyone specific said that; it's just a way of highlighting words that may mean different things to different people) is immaterial to me.   There was clear evidence there that he was joking, but that was summarily ignored by many people observing.  I opted to not insert my bias - that's not really my kind of humor - but rather take him at what seemed like his intent.   I have my feelings, my emotions, about the closing of the forum (and they are not positive, for the most part; there were a handful of people there that I consider friends; not "internet friends", but "friends", and I feel a loss at having lost the opportunity to have a collective conversation with some of them), but that doesn't change that anyone who was looking could have seen this coming for years.  Frankly, I think it only lasted this long because at first it would have engendered the same (dreaded) response that Mike feared in that video, and later simply because of apathy.  But those feelings don't and shouldn't enter into that equation one bit.     

[Lethean]

But even out of context, they're perfectly fine songs, even if not what the album was originally advertised as being.

That's the underlying 'issue' I have. When DS starting billing themselves as the new kings of prog and it was prog this and prog that....these two songs don't scream prog at all and I think that's where I personally started to become a bit skeptical about this project.

Signs of Times is a pretty cool song actually...at least musically. I'm still adjusting to the vocals in it and can at least tolerate them in it. And there's certainly prog elements. Coming Home on the other hand...well........

If the album populates in my Apple Music Service I'll give it a listen or two. I'm sure there will be some cool segments and maybe even better songs. But the entire 'publicity' aspect of this project is what has put a bad taste in my mouth about it. Not the actual music.

For me it's both.  The publicity aspect has put a bad taste in my mouth for sure. But I also really dislike Coming Home, and Signs of the Time feels like watered down Symphony X to me. I haven't been that excited about SX lately in general. I'm also not sold on the vocals, so with all that combined, I'm just not optimistic about the rest. Nonetheless, there's always the chance that one of the other songs will resonate.

[Skeever]

I am sure he thinks this is just rock and roll swagger, which is not surprising given that he is a huge fan of Kiss (assholes) and Van Halen (Roth and EVH are two of the biggest douchebags in rock history), but it just comes off as condescending and will just piss off his target audience (which isn't that big in the first place).  I mean, a 50-year old man is that really worried about swagger and acting tough.

Can someone please knock some sense into Portnoy and tell him to focus mainly on Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors?

A prog keyboardist acting all macho and calling out another keyboardist on being too lame or cheesy or whatever is sort of like WWE wrestlers calling eachother out on cheating 

[bosk1]

There was a long string of posts here where it was hammered home that we can't worry about context, we can't worry about other things, only the exact words that the artist puts out there.   

That GROSSLY misstates what was said to the point where it's not remotely accurate.  But it is also irrelevant to what we are discussing now, so...

Fair point; here's an honest question for you, though:  if it is necessary for an artist to understand and relate to how the fan base feels - notwithstanding that most artists make art independent of what the "fans" want; they follow their muse - is it equally necessary for that fanbase to understand and relate to how the artist feels?     

No.  And I mean that strictly from a practical standpoint.  It behooves the artist to understand and acknowledge the fan base because failure to do so can alienate the fan base, which results in fewer album and concert ticket sales, which results in the artist not having the success he wants to have.  The practical effect on the fan of a fan not understanding and acknowledging the artist's feelings is practically nil.  If I misunderstand the fact that Gene Simmons is an altruist and humanitarian of the highest order and don't buy his albums as a result, the net loss for me is that my CD collection has room for artists who are not Gene Simmons.  If he publicly portrays himself in a way that a large segment of his fan base finds distasteful, and he ignores that, he hurts himself and there is a very tangible impact to him.  So, yeah, it behooves him to acknowledge the fan base's feelings and their perception of him.  But there really isn't any reciprocal obligation (for lack of a better word).

[emtee]

@Stadler - it's clear that unless we're balls deep in Mike's ass over everything he does like that Marc guy over on his Facebook and Twitter (Actual quotes: "Coming Home rules!! I'm going to have such a BONER when they play it live!!!" and "James LaBrie, most arrogant miserable bastard ever!!"), he doesn't want to hear any criticism, constructive or not. Hell even with Neal Morse in that clip, despite him taking responsibility later, it's clear he's visibly frustrated at being told what something should sound like even though it isn't his band to call the shots.

So I ask you, why can we not judge the behavior of a self-proclaimed 'control freak' who's admitted he can't handle the Internet, who's grown increasingly defensive and lashes out against all feedback that isn't showering him with praise, who calls this entire forum 'trolls and haters,' who tries to control conversations about his music but does nothing against insults towards bandmates he spent 20+ years with, and then shuts his own forum down because he's too insecure to just let fans - and this is important - do what fans do?

You can. But IMO when you are in someone else's house you should exercise common decency and respect. It's like being invited
into a guests home for dinner and then feeling the need to proclaim the beef stew sucked balls. It may have sucked balls
but there is a time and place for that discussion and in front of the guests, who invited you there, is not the place.

It just seems like such an en vogue thing to continue to jump all over the man, when in fact he is just a musician who has never
(as far as I know) personally done anything to anyone here except maybe Bosk. He's a human being with strengths and
faults like all of us...just trying to make his way through life. And while I can't dismiss some of his actions in the past, I also
remember that I have not been perfect in my life either. Who am I to judge? I guess if it makes you or anyone else feel
somehow better than go ahead and continue to trash him but in the end what does anyone gain?

[Stadler]

@Stadler - it's clear that unless we're balls deep in Mike's ass over everything he does like that Marc guy over on his Facebook and Twitter (Actual quotes: "Coming Home rules!! I'm going to have such a BONER when they play it live!!!" and "James LaBrie, most arrogant miserable bastard ever!!"), he doesn't want to hear any criticism, constructive or not. Hell even with Neal Morse in that clip, despite him taking responsibility later, it's clear he's visibly frustrated at being told what something should sound like even though it isn't his band to call the shots.

So I ask you, why can we not judge the behavior of a self-proclaimed 'control freak' who's admitted he can't handle the Internet, who's grown increasingly defensive and lashes out against all feedback that isn't showering him with praise, who calls this entire forum 'trolls and haters,' who tries to control conversations about his music but does nothing against insults towards bandmates he spent 20+ years with, and then shuts his own forum down because he's too insecure to just let fans - and this is important - do what fans do?

You can judge whatever you want.  Not telling anyone what to do.  But it's not unfair for someone to point out the flaws in those judgments.   Case in point:  "shuts his own forum down because he's too insecure to just let fans - and this is important - do what fans do"?  What exactly is it that "fans" do?   Call their favorite artist "insecure" and ridicule his choices of marketing?  Tell him how to run his band (a band he may or may not be the leader of, though I understand that he did at least once say he would be leading this band)?    He's not the first artist to take this kind of position.  Kiss does it, Paul Stanley in particular.    Phil Collins makes Mike Portnoy look like an alligator (thick skin reference, there).    Both Genesis and Phil shut down the forums at their sites for similar reason.    Most artists forsake the whole forum thing altogether simply to avoid the confrontation. 

[The Walrus]

Good points emtee. Don't have much of an argument to the first paragraph - need to chew on that for a while. I think I agree and disagree at the same time. I think I fundamentally have a problem with, "Come here, feel free to discuss - but don't discuss (this) or (that), and keep your thoughts on (this) positive, because negative feedback isn't accepted."

As to why discuss it? I dunno. Why discuss anything? Fans talk about the most minute things, not usually because they're trying to trash anyone, but because they're passionate about the given subject and want to communicate how they see things. It is totally understandable how some aren't about that, though.

[bosk1]

Great post, emtee.  And that has pretty much what has been behind my philosophy in running this site from day 1, which is why this place is run the way it is.  It's too bad Mike never got that.  But the rest of the band pretty much does. 

Anyhow, we're getting pretty far afield again.  Let's bring it back to topic.  I know the actual topic isn't as much fun, and there isn't as much to discuss right now while we're in waiting mode.  But we're just going round and round on tangents now.

[The Walrus]

Noted. Apologies, bosk man. 

[Herrick]

I'm really interested in hearing the album as a whole.   I think one of the things about prog metal (and prog in general) is that the sum is usually greater than the individual parts.  I think it is going to be an interesting listen.  I would venture that it's at least possible that songs like Signs of the Time and Coming Home are better in context.

I didn't think about that. It's a good point. Coming Home is quite unremarkable but it might sound better depending on what comes before and after it on the album. I just hope the rest of the album isn't so radio friendly.

[noxon]

Coming home is the 2nd track, signs of the time is the 3rd. The first is a longer prog metal track with strong middle eastern influence...

[Stadler]

@Stadler - it's clear that unless we're balls deep in Mike's ass over everything he does like that Marc guy over on his Facebook and Twitter (Actual quotes: "Coming Home rules!! I'm going to have such a BONER when they play it live!!!" and "James LaBrie, most arrogant miserable bastard ever!!"), he doesn't want to hear any criticism, constructive or not. Hell even with Neal Morse in that clip, despite him taking responsibility later, it's clear he's visibly frustrated at being told what something should sound like even though it isn't his band to call the shots.

So I ask you, why can we not judge the behavior of a self-proclaimed 'control freak' who's admitted he can't handle the Internet, who's grown increasingly defensive and lashes out against all feedback that isn't showering him with praise, who calls this entire forum 'trolls and haters,' who tries to control conversations about his music but does nothing against insults towards bandmates he spent 20+ years with, and then shuts his own forum down because he's too insecure to just let fans - and this is important - do what fans do?

You can. But IMO when you are in someone else's house you should exercise common decency and respect. It's like being invited
into a guests home for dinner and then feeling the need to proclaim the beef stew sucked balls. It may have sucked balls
but there is a time and place for that discussion and in front of the guests, who invited you there, is not the place.

It just seems like such an en vogue thing to continue to jump all over the man, when in fact he is just a musician who has never
(as far as I know) personally done anything to anyone here except maybe Bosk. He's a human being with strengths and
faults like all of us...just trying to make his way through life. And while I can't dismiss some of his actions in the past, I also
remember that I have not been perfect in my life either. Who am I to judge? I guess if it makes you or anyone else feel
somehow better than go ahead and continue to trash him but in the end what does anyone gain?

Can I use this as my signature?  This is the essence of what I'm saying, though I'm not saying it in anywhere near as eloquent a way. 

[Bertielee]

I don't buy JSS singing in the band. I simply don't like his singing on the 2 tracks released and I used to be a huge fan of him. As for the tracks themselves, it's simply not the music I want to listen to- it's not bad at all- but it's simply not my cup of tea.

B.Lee

[MirrorMask]

The first is a longer prog metal track with strong middle eastern influence...

Sounds interesting!

[Samsara]

Here's a question that has been nagging me.

If Sons of Apollo isn't received as well as perhaps MP and DS want it to, or, if for some reason the chemistry breaks down with JSS (the points people made pages ago regarding the recording of the vocals is what I am referring to), do you think they pull a Dream Theater and replace JSS with someone else?

I mean no disrespect to JSS, but I'm just saying that if it doesn't work out (either with JSS, or the band as a whole), would MP get another guy, or simply fold the band?

I think the question is valid, since so many of these new bands really only get a record to prove themselves. I think with MP's history, he'd probably get a couple...

[Bertielee]

Here's a question that has been nagging me.

If Sons of Apollo isn't received as well as perhaps MP and DS want it to, or, if for some reason the chemistry breaks down with JSS (the points people made pages ago regarding the recording of the vocals is what I am referring to), do you think they pull a Dream Theater and replace JSS with someone else?

I mean no respect to JSS, but I'm just saying that if it doesn't work out (either with JSS, or the band as a whole), would MP get another guy, or simply fold the band?

I think the question is valid, since so many of these new bands really only get a record to prove themselves. I think with MP's history, he'd probably get a couple...

You have no respect for JSS?!? 

B.Lee

[Samsara]

FIXED!

Boy, that was embarrassing. 

[antigoon]

From the looks of it the singing is gonna be the least of their problems.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Found a link to this review on Facebook: https://progreport.com/sons-of-apollo-psychotic-symphony-album-review/

[Samsara]

Found a link to this review on Facebook: https://progreport.com/sons-of-apollo-psychotic-symphony-album-review/

Interesting review and well written. I do, however, always hold these at arms length when a reviewer does not point out anything that he or she doesn't like. NOTHING is perfect. Having done a ton of album and concert reviews for a variety of online and print publications myself, I love the enthusiasm in this. But there has to be something to balance out all the praise.