Iron Maiden Discography Thread: Senjutsu

[cramx3]

Other than "Brave New World", I can't really imagine a poster on my wall of any of the post-No Prayer album covers like I can "Number..." or "Killers" or "Seventh Son...".   I REALLY was lost when Eddie started to look like Gollum, but I'm getting ahead....

I have three IM flag posters hanging in my basement.  They are these three album covers Brave New World, Powerslave, and.... En Vivo.  The En Vivo one I got last and I like it because it's a live shot.  But the other two, my college room mate (He's coming to IM with me on Saturday) and I bought and hung in our college apartment.  Essentially we both loved those two album covers and felt an old and a new was the way to go.  I really like FotD's album cover, but the other 90s covers are not so interesting IMO.

[Samsara]

Thank you Mosh! Great job!

No Prayer is the...forgotten album for me. As I have said, I'm newer to Maiden fandom, and this record is one of the last I acquired (not counting the Blaze era which I bought but just don't sit well with me). As a result, I can probably count on one hand the times I have listened to it. I am listening to it now to more appreciate the history Mosh gave us. It's OK, and not bad by any stretch. But it certainly does dip a bit below the 80s in quality, almost as if Bruce and the band didn't have much left to do that was "new" for them. Sorta Maiden's mid-life crisis record. Trying to recapture the past and being a bit lackluster...

[TAC]

A lot had changed since the last Maiden album. I had graduated college in the spring of 1990, and of course Adrian was no longer in the band. I vividly remember reading the news that Adrian left. I was still in school and it was in a blurb in the CMJ (College Music Journal), which I had, since I had a show on my college's radio station. I was gutted. I loved what Adrian was doing and how it affected Maiden. But the blurb also included the fact that Jannick Gers was the replacement, which actually made me feel good. At least I thought, well, he's in "the family", having just done Bruce's album and tour, and also having been part of the Gogmagog project with Paul Dianno and Clive Burr.

There is no waxing romantically about having to be there at the time. This was their weakest album then, and it's their weakest album now. After such a long layoff, I remember getting the Holy Smoke single ahead of the album. While I was so happy to have new Maiden, this track felt like a B side. Lyrically, it just didn't seem serious enough for a Maiden album.

It was clear from the outset that this was an extremely sub par album.

But first..what I like.

Love the album cover and color scheme.

I LOVE the title track. It's a TAC Top 15 Maiden track. It really is a mini masterpiece.

I like Public Enema Number One. The title is ridiculous, and again, I can't believe someone thought it was ok to have a title like that on an album proper. Maiden was all about class, and this undermined that. Still, there's nothing at all wrong with the song. It's actually pretty cool.

I have always loved Run Silent Run Deep. Might be Maiden's best chorus. Plus it has Maiden's first and only MOSH PART from 2:19-2:34. And the way the two guitars come out of the solo is wonderful.

While Fates Warning has one of my least favorite choruses, the intro is absolutely spectacular, as are the verses.

I think musically Bring Your Daughter is fantastic, expecially live, but my God, the lyrics and title just blow. What a joke.

I like The Assassin, though it's not Maiden's strongest, and I do like Mother Russia for what it is. Unfortunately, it's position on the album, and arrangement, gets it grouped with previous Maiden epics, which it is clearly not on par with.

The problems? Well, even though I like The Assassin and PE#1, they are below average Maiden songs. I truly love ONE song and merely like a few others.

The production is terrible. Tailgunner is fairly decent live, but on the album, there is zero life to it, especially the chorus, which lies so flat and lame.

How on earth does Hooks In You make it on to an album proper? Lyrically, it's embarrassing, and musically, it's barely a B side.

I realize Maiden may have blown their load with 7th Son, but after an extended layoff, I can't believe that this was the best they came up with.

[MirrorMask]

TAC, my ideas on the songs are so little different from yours, that I won't even bother with nitpicking with my opinions. Give or take a little detail here and there, I generally agree with you.

[TAC]

My biggest issue was the quality of tracks after the long layoff. And including a piece of shit like Hooks In You just proves they were not prepared to go in and record an album.

To me, the Holy Smoke lyrics are on par with Black Bart or Sherriff Of Huddersfield.

[Stadler]

I think what strikes me about TAC's post (which I largely agree with, by the way) is that this is the first Maiden album in a while that you can't say anything without some caveat.

"I like it, but..."
"It's good, but..."
"Strong song, but..."
"Good cover, but..."
"Great playing, but..."

Powerslave?  No buts. 

[TAC]

Hah!

I actually have plenty of "but"s with Powerslave.


To me, this is their worst album, in terms of actual songs. I still listen to it more than TXF and VXI, but that has more to do with Bruce continuity and the production/demo qualities of those albums. Musically, I think both of those albums are better than this.

[bosk1]

I actually have plenty of "but"s with Powerslave.

  Exactly.  Let's not pretend for even a moment that Powerslave is anything better than an "okay" album by a great band (or half of a great album, if you prefer to look at it that way). 

[Stadler]

So Powerslave is "just as good" as "No Prayer..."?   Even allowing for "personal taste", I don't think objectively you can say that the album that turned them into international superstars and which was played almost in it's entirety live, and spawned one of the greatest live albums of all time is "on par" with "No Prayer...".


And I was exaggerating a tad; I do have "buts" with Powerslave (not a fan of "Flash of the Blade") but my point was EVERYTHING about "No Prayer..." has a "but". 

[MirrorMask]

Well, only half of the album was regularly played live; when "lucky", a 5th song got in the set.

Seventh Son of a Seventh Son deserves more that claim, with always 6 songs out of 8 played at basically every show of the corresponding tour.

[cramx3]

Well, only half of the album was regularly played live; when "lucky", a 5th song got in the set.

Seventh Son of a Seventh Son deserves more that claim, with always 6 songs out of 8 played at basically every show of the corresponding tour.

I think AMoLaD has something to say about that.

However, I'm not entirely sure the live songs truly represent how good an album is.

Either way though, I agree, there's little to no comparison between NPftD and Powerslave.  One's at worst a solid album and the other's at best a solid album.

[bosk1]

So Powerslave is "just as good" as "No Prayer..."?   

I never said anything about comparing the two.  I don't even own No Prayer, so what does that tell you?    Just saying, Powerslave is just "good."  The two opening songs and two closing songs alone make the album more than worthwhile.  But despite that three of those are fantastic, the middle four songs are just there and drag it down to just "good" status as a whole piece of work.

[Stadler]

Either way though, I agree, there's little to no comparison between NPftD and Powerslave.  One's at worst a solid album and the other's at best a solid album.

I think that's where I was going.   I thought it was a great idea (the "buts") but I guess not.  I'll leave it at "No Prayer... is only a good album with a lot of missed opportunities for me."

[PowerSlave]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

[kaos2900]

As already stated this is a weaker album. Running Silent, The Assassin, and Tailgunner are the only songs I don't like.

[bosk1]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

Quest for Fire is awesome, and any of the other songs you listed are head and shoulders above the middle four songs on Powerslave.

[PowerSlave]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

Quest for Fire is awesome, and any of the other songs you listed are head and shoulders above the middle four songs on Powerslave.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm completely in Stad's corner on my feelings about it.

[Mladen]

The only Iron Maiden album without a single song I would call truly great.

That's saying something.

[bosk1]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

Quest for Fire is awesome, and any of the other songs you listed are head and shoulders above the middle four songs on Powerslave.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm completely in Stad's corner on my feelings about it.

That's fine.  I respect your right to be wrong. 

[Samsara]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

Quest for Fire is awesome, and any of the other songs you listed are head and shoulders above the middle four songs on Powerslave.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm completely in Stad's corner on my feelings about it.

That's fine.  I respect your right to be wrong. 

This coming from the man who thinks "All I Want" is a great Queensryche song. I side with the others, just to be contrary. 

[PowerSlave]

Powerslave suffers from having some really good songs surrounded by absolute brilliance. The songs that are merely "really good" take a hit in most fans' eyes because they are always going to be compared with the other songs on the album. Consider the fact that there are no songs on the album that dip in quality to the levels of Quest for Fire, Sun and Steel, Invaders or Gangland. When I look at the album in those terms it invariably raises it to another level.

Quest for Fire is awesome, and any of the other songs you listed are head and shoulders above the middle four songs on Powerslave.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm completely in Stad's corner on my feelings about it.

That's fine.  I respect your right to be wrong. 

This coming from the man who thinks "All I Want" is a great Queensryche song. I side with the others, just to be contrary. 

That's some pretty damning evidence 

[bosk1]

[Lowdz]

Don't think I've heard this one all the way through. I'd given up on Maiden by this point. My musical taste had moved on. Queensryche were kicking their arse and I was into the Shrapnel label shredders. I heard the singles and wasn't bothered to check the album out. Still don't own it.

[The Silent Cody]

Well I think that Holy Smoke and Bring Daughter To The Slaughter was first Maiden songs I've heard when I was a young boy. After that my dad showed my Maiden England on VHS I liked it very much. NPFTD is a good album, from Iron golden era. Brave New World was the last album that I have enjoyed with... 

[Mosh]

I have a soft spot for No Prayer. When I first discovered Maiden, there wasn't really any historical context to the albums I was listening to. I knew Dance of Death and BNW were the most recent albums, but beyond that I wasn't concerned with which albums came out when and why they sounded the way they did. So in that sense, everything was on equal ground. No Prayer was one of my favorites. I loved the raw energy and aggression as well as the graveyard vibe of the artwork and photos. Bruce's growl sounded pure evil to me, which I liked. Everything embodied what I liked about Maiden and, again no context, I felt it was closer to NOTB than anything else. On the other hand, I disliked Fear Of the Dark even back then.

Fast forward to today and while I definitely see its flaws and why many dislike it, I have to admit I'm still surprised at just how much hate it gets. I put it on about the same level as Tattooed Millionaire: decent albums for what they are but definitely a departure from what made Maiden and Bruce great. If I want to hear classic Maiden, there's plenty of that out there. If I want something different, No Prayer can sometimes be a fun departure from what I'm used to (I also feel this way about other "controversial" albums, such as Kiss Unmasked).

I hinted at it in my original post, but the MVP for me is without a doubt Dave Murray. The two best tracks are easily Public Enema and Fates Warning. If more of the album was in that vein, it'd be much more of a success IMO. Not only that, but I feel Dave really held down the fort on this album. Steve and Bruce seemed creatively lost, Janick was barely in the band at this point, and Nicko is consistently Nicko. Dave's guitar playing fits the material and his songwriting contributions make for some of the album's most memorable moments. You could definitely make the argument for him being the heart of the band, just by virtue of being there through all the ups and downs since the beginning.

Ironically, and this may be controversial, some of the weaker moments on the album are actually the title track and Mother Russia. They both seem like contrived rehashes to me. If they wanted to make something heavy and aggressive, they should've gone all out. Ditch the keyboards completely (they don't sound good on these songs) and don't worry about writing the obligatory "epic". Bruce's vocals on No Prayer just sound ridiculous to me too. I don't mind the raspy approach on the bulk of this album, but on that song in particular it just doesn't work.

Other controversial opinions: I actually like Hooks In You. I kinda agree with TAC that it seems like an obvious b-side, but I don't mind too much. The Assassin is another one that gets a lot of hate and while I don't dislike it, I'm pretty meh on it. Tailgunner is decent but another rehash. I go back and forth on Holy Smoke. It has some cool parts but is also fairly generic. The lyrics are well written but I feel Maiden were late to the subject by a couple years. Ozzy Osbourne already did a song about televangelists in 88 and Zappa had a routine about it around the same time. Of course at this point it doesn't really matter.

I used to dislike Bring Your Daughter, but I've come to appreciate it more for what it is. Run Silent Run Deep is awesome, I've heard Bruce dislikes it which seemed bizarre to me.

I'm surprised that Mosh didn't comment on them, but I gotta give it to the band for the 2 covers they chose for the Holy Smoke single; the A-side may have been pure unadulterated crap, but the 2 B-sides are among the best: All in Your Mind and Kill Me Ce Soir. I had gotten the CD single when it first came out and I remember listening to those 2 songs repeatedly. I wish more of their B-sides were of the same quality as these and the ones they did for SiT.

I've purposely avoided talking about most of the B-Sides since we will eventually get to Eddie's Archive which contains most of them. Feel free to discuss them though of course.

The only song I truly dislike and I don't care for is Hooks in You... kinda a bad last memory for Adrian to leave.

I totally agree with this.  So out of left field for H in regards to Maiden it just seems a bit weird all round.

I think the riffs are pretty typical Adrian, my best guess is that Bruce twisted the song into something else once Adrian was no longer there to collaborate. I don't think Bruce totally recovered from the SIT burnout until the late 90s, a lot of what he did in between then was often just weird and aimless. When grounded by Adrian, Steve, or (later on) Roy Z, he can do some really cool stuff. But left to his own devices you got things like Hooks In You, Dive Dive Dive, and the Adventures of Lord Iffy Boatrace. He just wasn't really taking it seriously as much as before.

[TAC]

Mosh, there's much to chew on in that post. I'll totally ass it up if I try to quote each passage and respond but...

* Sometimes I am actually envious of people that didn't experience these albums in "real time". I appreciate the opinions of those that did not. To them, it's all "back catalog". Every album is measured on its own merits. For one day, I would love to suspend my memory and experience their discography all at once. I would love that.

* I disagree on the title track. To me, it's really the standout track. And musically Bring Your Daughter is amazing. After that, it's pretty garbled.

* I'm surprised to hear Bruce doesn't like RSRD. He puts forth a great performance (for this album, anyway) on it.

* Fear Of The Dark (the album) is 10X better. Should be a good week discussing that!

* You talk about the MVP being Dave Murray. We'll talk about this more during the tour portion of the thread, but Jannick brought Davey out of his shell. If anyone wants to know why Jannick is still in the band, they should ask Dave Murray.

*  I kind of think Mother Russia is fine for what it is. As a stand alone track, I think it's fine. Unfortunately any song about Russia was at least a year or two too late at this point, and as I said before, it's position and arrangement unfortunately pit it against the other Maiden epics.

* Other than Bruce literally trying to grind my eardrums out, Kill ME Ce Sior is awesome!

[RodrigoAltaf]

I found this really cool interview with Bruce where he talks about No Prayer, FOTD and Dream Theater:
https://brucedickinsonforeverofficialblog.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/archives-bruce-dickinson-interviewed-on-a-tourbus-in-1996/

[TAC]

Wow, Rodrigo, that's quite a find and quite a read.

[RodrigoAltaf]

And such a coincidence too, that we're addressing No Prayer this week and I come across this article today!!!

[Mosh]

Really cool read. I have to say though, Bruce talked a lot of BS in the 90s and even the early 00's. I don't trust a lot of what he says to be completely truthful. He talks about No Prayer as if everyone else wanted to go in that direction and he was the only one who knew any better. I have to wonder, if No Prayer was a #1 album, outsold Seventh Son, and was released to universal acclaim, would Bruce still be writing it off? The tone I get from a lot of those Skunkworks interviews (and Bruce pretty much says as much) is that he's trying to separate himself from Maiden and maybe in some ways wash his hands of some of their less successful moments.

There are some interesting nuggets in there though. I wonder if bringing in Kevin Shirley as a producer was one of Bruce's demands for returning?

@TAC

1: Janick's importance in the band becomes clear on Fear Of the Dark and remains to this day IMO. He brings a lot to the table as a songwriter and has come into his own as a soloist (at least in studio, live he is seriously inconsistent). I remember reading that if the three guitar thing didn't work out, Steve was going to keep Janick and not Adrian. That might say more about the importance of loyalty to Steve, but it also speaks to Janick's worth in the band for him to be chosen over the guy who was there through the band's classic period.

2: It really struck me yesterday how well written Bring Your Daughter is. It's got a great hook, a really cool bridge, and a nice singalong section. The goofy lyrics really undersell the song. It also came a little too late maybe. I wonder if, given the proper promotion, it'd be a huge hit in 1988 America.

3: Ce Soir is possibly the last great Maiden b-side. Not a big fan of the ones on Fear (Space Station No. 5 is OK) and after that they became more focused on releasing live tracks and alternate versions as b-sides. The selection of live tracks was also very questionable toward the end.

[PowerSlave]

I found this really cool interview with Bruce where he talks about No Prayer, FOTD and Dream Theater:
https://brucedickinsonforeverofficialblog.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/archives-bruce-dickinson-interviewed-on-a-tourbus-in-1996/

Did any of you guys catch the reference to the R101? Twenty years later he'd be writing a song about it.

And then the reference to Gangland. Even the guy that helped write the song thought that it sucks 

And you could tell that he wasn't on very good terms with Steve at this point in time.

[MirrorMask]

Always nice to see people appreciate for personal reasons albums many other despise 

That interview with Bruce made me remember about that b-side of Skunworks, R101... does the name sound familiar in light of recent events?  I love how he brushes it away with "yeah, that's a song about a Zeppelin that crushed", just a single line, while later he would write the longest Iron Maiden song ever about it.

[Mladen]

Whoa, what a read! That interview is fantastic, I really enjoy the way he talks about the Dream Theater sound and his love of Van der Graaf Generator. I've always known Peter influenced Bruce, but I never knew to which extent.

Also, it's odd that Bruce had problems with the way No prayer sounded. I never had an issue with the sound and production, I was always more put off by the music itself.

[soupytwist]

No Prayer for me is Maidens fun throw away album.  I can chuck this album up and enjoy it all the way though.  Nothing boring or bland (sadly this cannot be said for the other 90's albums).   While none of the songs are classics, they do play surprisingly well together as an cohesive album.   I much prefer this over Fear of the Dark, which may have better high points - but Christ on a bike the bad songs on that album are utterly shite (and there are quite a few of them).

I'll also side with Mosh.  'Hooks in you' is perfectly decent (if you don't concentrate on the lyrics too much )

[wolfking]

* I disagree on the title track. To me, it's really the standout track.

Totally agree. 

As I mentioned earlier too in regards to Dave, it's clear his stage presence and performances did lift when Janick jonied, I never really knew why but would definitely like to know.