Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[Phoenix87x]

What the hell reference is that?

-Everyone on this forum under 60.

Dallas

Guy dies. Show goes off the rails, but then it ends with it all being a dream and everything resets. At least that's how I think it works. I wasn't alive in 86.

[jingle.boy]

Pretty sure Chris is well aware of this... he's in that age bracket.  I'm mid 40s, and I knew exactly what that was.  I think he was making a joke that most of this forum would be all "da fuq?"

[Phoenix87x]

Oh, I know.  I just can't get enough Patrick Duffy. Couldn't resist a chance to bring him up 





Eat your heart out shirtless Kylo 

[ariich]

It wasn't poorly written? A quick google search will show all the poor decisions with the writing

Those kinds of article are hilarious to be honest. Always written by someone who simply didn't like something, who then takes a really pedantic and forensically critical approach which could equally be applied to most similar films.

TLJ was genuinely excellent, probably my second favourite SW film behind Empire.

[lordxizor]

I don't get the push to try and prove that it was objectively a bad move. You just didn't like it dude. That's OK. It's fine to not like a movie. I'm sorry if you didn't like it so much that it sours you on future Star Wars movies, but that's your problem, not Star Wars' problem. Star Wars, Marvel, DC, Harry Potter, etc will all make movies that individuals like and don't like. Only with Star Wars do fans have reactions like this.

[gmillerdrake]

TLJ was genuinely excellent, probably my second favourite SW film behind Empire.

Same here, followed by TFA.

I've said it before in here but, once I got over the fact Johnson didn't take Luke's character the way 'I' thought or wanted him too...or the way that had been speculated he 'should'......then went back and watched the film a second time to watch it without any expectations.....I really started to dig the movie. Subsequent viewings just make it better and better for me.



I still don't like force flying Leia at all.....but as far as Luke and his story and how he was handled, I think it was perfect.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

It wasn't poorly written? A quick google search will show all the poor decisions with the writing

Those kinds of article are hilarious to be honest. Always written by someone who simply didn't like something, who then takes a really pedantic and forensically critical approach which could equally be applied to most similar films.

TLJ was genuinely excellent, probably my second favourite SW film behind Empire.

A lot of them are hilarious and way too nit-picky. I'll grant you that. But others address serious issues with the film. And I agree with many of the points.

I don't get the push to try and prove that it was objectively a bad move. You just didn't like it dude. That's OK. It's fine to not like a movie. I'm sorry if you didn't like it so much that it sours you on future Star Wars movies, but that's your problem, not Star Wars' problem. Star Wars, Marvel, DC, Harry Potter, etc will all make movies that individuals like and don't like. Only with Star Wars do fans have reactions like this.

There are a lot of people that feel the same way that I do. Our opinions are just as valid as those who enjoyed the film. It's not like I'm trying to talk down a movie that is universally loved, such as Episode V.

I can't speak for Harry Potter, but there are plenty of people who react to Marvel films poorly, particularly when things deviate from the source material. But even then, Marvel has done nothing that can come close to being compared with Episode VIII.

Also want to note.... I'm not one of these clowns that are upset about the diversity in casting.. I'm actually all for that, and Rose was one of my favorite characters from VIII, and the trolling of the actual actors is something that I don't condone whatsoever.

[bosk1]

It wasn't poorly written? A quick google search will show all the poor decisions with the writing

Those kinds of article are hilarious to be honest. Always written by someone who simply didn't like something, who then takes a really pedantic and forensically critical approach which could equally be applied to most similar films.

TLJ was genuinely excellent, probably my second favourite SW film behind Empire.

A lot of them are hilarious and way too nit-picky. I'll grant you that. But others address serious issues with the film. And I agree with many of the points.

...

There are a lot of people that feel the same way that I do.

And that still amounts to little more than:

I don't get the push to try and prove that it was objectively a bad move. You just didn't like it dude. That's OK. It's fine to not like a movie. I'm sorry if you didn't like it so much that it sours you on future Star Wars movies, but that's your problem, not Star Wars' problem.

[lordxizor]

I can't speak for Harry Potter, but there are plenty of people who react to Marvel films poorly, particularly when things deviate from the source material. But even then, Marvel has done nothing that can come close to being compared with Episode VIII.

I can completely understand being upset that a movie isn't true to the source material, whether its a novel or a comic or whatever. But Star Wars has no source material to be true to, so it's really not an apples to apples comparison to people who are angry at those other movies. Your opinion is certainly a valid one and I thought TLJ was far from perfect, though I enjoyed it. I just don't get the completely visceral responses people have had to TLJ. I've never seen that kind of a response to a movie before except when it deviated greatly from source material, and even then it's never seemed this bad.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I can't speak for Harry Potter, but there are plenty of people who react to Marvel films poorly, particularly when things deviate from the source material. But even then, Marvel has done nothing that can come close to being compared with Episode VIII.

I can completely understand being upset that a movie isn't true to the source material, whether its a novel or a comic or whatever. But Star Wars has no source material to be true to, so it's really not an apples to apples comparison to people who are angry at those other movies. Your opinion is certainly a valid one and I thought TLJ was far from perfect, though I enjoyed it. I just don't get the completely visceral responses people have had to TLJ. I've never seen that kind of a response to a movie before except when it deviated greatly from source material, and even then it's never seemed this bad.

Well I didn't mean for it to be an apples to apples comparison.

I wanted to love TLJ. I wanted to at least like it. And it was visually stunning. But The bombs dropping in space, Leia's Mary Poppins moment, The complete mishandling of Snoke, The whole Casino planet thing and Del Toro's character, Holdo,  the 1st Order being content to slowly follow the rebels and wait till they.....run out of fuel? A "Your Mamma" Joke in a Star Wars film? Lack of lightsabre battles......

The Snoke thing is probably the worst. but I'm sure some other fn cashgrab trilogy will come along to explain him.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything. Movie's been out for like 9 months. Everyone's where they're at with it and it is what it is.

[bosk1]

Not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Clearly.

This trilogy is a mess. JJ set things up nicely with TFA.... then TLJ happens..... I couldn't be any less excited for Episode 9.....the magic is gone. They're making movies for the sake of making movies now.

[pg1067]

I wanted to love TLJ. I wanted to at least like it. And it was visually stunning. But The bombs dropping in space, Leia's Mary Poppins moment, The complete mishandling of Snoke, The whole Casino planet thing and Del Toro's character, Holdo,  the 1st Order being content to slowly follow the rebels and wait till they.....run out of fuel? A "Your Mamma" Joke in a Star Wars film? Lack of lightsabre battles......

The Snoke thing is probably the worst. but I'm sure some other fn cashgrab trilogy will come along to explain him.

I assume the "bombs dropping in space" is a complaint about "space" being a "zero gravity" environment (which it isn't).  To the extent anyone needs their sci-fi/fantasy fiction to conform to "real world" rules of physics in order to be enjoyable, there are plausible explanations for the "bombs dropping in space."  Do people really need their fiction to explain the science?

The rest of this amounts to nothing more than "I don't like it," although I'm at a loss to understand how Snoke was "complete[ly] mishandl[ed]."  There's nothing objectively "bad" about any of it, and my biggest problem is with folks who, more than simply not liking it, feel the need to convince folks that the things they don't like are objective flaws.

As I wrote previously, IMO, TLJ is no worse than the third best of the ten Star Wars movies (or eleven if you count Clone Wars).  I would probably rank them as follows:

Empire
Star Wars
TLJ
Rogue One
RotJ
TFA
RotS
Solo
TPM
AooC

On the right day, I might put TLJ ahead of Star Wars.

[Grappler]

The rest of this amounts to nothing more than "I don't like it," although I'm at a loss to understand how Snoke was "complete[ly] mishandl[ed]."  There's nothing objectively "bad" about any of it, and my biggest problem is with folks who, more than simply not liking it, feel the need to convince folks that the things they don't like are objective flaws.

I think the thing about Snoke is that they didn't reveal him to be some widely known, Expanded Universe sith lord.  Fanboys wanted to shoehorn Darth Plaegus into the story.  So by making him just this regular character (which Darth Vader and Palpatine were just regular characters in the OT until subsequent films gave them a backstory), they took away some kid's wet dream and subsequently ruined the story for them.

I like that - Vader was just the Lord of the Sith in A New Hope.  He went through two entire films and was accepted of just being a badass villain until it was revealed that he was Anakin Skywalker.  Why does everyone need Snoke to be someone else?

[bosk1]

The rest of this amounts to nothing more than "I don't like it," although I'm at a loss to understand how Snoke was "complete[ly] mishandl[ed]."  There's nothing objectively "bad" about any of it, and my biggest problem is with folks who, more than simply not liking it, feel the need to convince folks that the things they don't like are objective flaws.

Exactly. 

I'm still not sure how to rank it.  The casino planet storyline and how the casino "planet" was portrayed REALLY bother me.  But the rest of the movie (and even parts of that part) were close to 10/10 and right up there with or above my all-time favorites of the franchise.

[Cool Chris]

I like that - Vader was just the Lord of the Sith in A New Hope.  He went through two entire films and was accepted of just being a badass villain until it was revealed that he was Anakin Skywalker.  Why does everyone need Snoke to be someone else?

I personally didn't need Snoke to be someone else. I did however need him to be somewhat interesting or compelling. He certainly wasn't a "badass villain" like Darth Vader. That dude blew a hole in a ship, marched through after his troops blasted anyone standing in their way, and choked to death someone who didn't give him the answer he wanted, all within the first 5 minutes of the film. I have only seen TFA/and TLJ once each, and I cannot tell you one thing Snoke did other than sit in a chair. 

[ariich]

I assume the "bombs dropping in space" is a complaint about "space" being a "zero gravity" environment (which it isn't).  To the extent anyone needs their sci-fi/fantasy fiction to conform to "real world" rules of physics in order to be enjoyable, there are plausible explanations for the "bombs dropping in space."  Do people really need their fiction to explain the science?

I hadn't seen that one before, but it's probably the silliest of the lot. Star Wars and indeed most sci-fi is completely not based in science fact.

[jingle.boy]

I hadn't seen that one before, but it's probably the silliest of the lot. Star Wars and indeed most sci-fi is completely not based in science fact.

Fair, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far sometimes.  In films of the style that are grounded in similar real life 'rules (humans, air, gravity) there also has to be some continuation of reality.  Spaceships - fiction; hyperspace - fiction; the Force - fiction; light-sabres - fiction; interacting with aliens - fiction.  I'm ok with all of that.  Gravity in space?  Not sure I'm ok with that.  Why did Leia need to force pull herself to the ship if there's gravity?  Surviving in space for as long as she did - why are we to assume space operates differently in this galaxy?

If this was the only problem (or at least one of a few), I could overlook it.  But there were so many small and medium sized wtf/lolpalm moments, it was like death by a thousand paper-cuts for me.

[lordxizor]

Ships clearly have some sort of artificial gravity since the people in them don't float. Maybe it's strong enough to allow bombs to drop. Or maybe the bombs were propelled downwards out of the ship and not just let to free fall. Two very obvious solutions to the problem. I think people are overthinking that particular "issue".

Leia would have been propelled outward away from the artificial gravity of the ship. She would have needed to reverse that momentum, so using the Force makes sense there. And people don't die instantly in space, so the time it took may be reasonable, especially someone with at least a small amount of Force abilities. I do think it was a dumb scene though, but not because it somehow didn't fit into the laws of the Star Wars universe.

[Grappler]

Leia would have been propelled outward away from the artificial gravity of the ship. She would have needed to reverse that momentum, so using the Force makes sense there. And people don't die instantly in space, so the time it took may be reasonable, especially someone with at least a small amount of Force abilities. I do think it was a dumb scene though, but not because it somehow didn't fit into the laws of the Star Wars universe.

I just started watching the audio commentary from Rian Johnson, and he said that the flying Leia scene is a result of Kathleen Kennedy and a number of other people reminding him that Leia is a Skywalker.  Luke told her in ROTJ that someday she may learn to use the force, but we have yet to ever see her do anything.  So this is Leia instinctually reaching out to the force in a dire moment of need.  I don't think it had anything to do with reversing any law of physics as much as it did that she is a descendant of a family that is strong in the force and despite having zero training, it was there for her when she needed it the most.

Sure, it looks awfully silly on screen, but given that Carrie Fisher is now gone, it's nice that she got to have a moment in the film where Leia finally can use the force after being told about her lineage so long ago.

[pg1067]

Gravity in space?  Not sure I'm ok with that.  Why did Leia need to force pull herself to the ship if there's gravity?  Surviving in space for as long as she did - why are we to assume space operates differently in this galaxy?

Gravity exists everywhere (including "in space").  The extent of the gravitational pull between two bodies is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to their distance from each other.  There is a gravitational pull between a human standing on Earth and the planet.  However, there is also a gravitational pull between that same human and the moon and between that human and the sun.  Obviously, the pull between the human and the sun or between the human and the moon is relatively negligible to that between the human and the Earth.  Therefore, it's not noticeable.  But it's still there.  If you're "floating" "in space," the gravitational pull between you and the various celestial bodies is more balanced.  One of the more obvious results of that is that, if an object is propelled in a particular direction, it will continue to move in that direction in that direction unless it is acted on by some other force.

If I recall correctly, the battle involving the bombs was fought relatively close to a planet.  Therefore, that planet would have exerted a gravitational pull on the bombs (albeit perhaps not a strong one).  Regardless, it is certainly plausible that the bombs were ejected in a manner such that they would "fall" in the same way that bombs fall when dropped from a plane flying at a few thousand feet over the surface of a planet.  It is also plausible that each bomb has a small propulsion system that caused it to fall in that manner.  It's also plausible that gravity "in space" works differently in the Star Wars universe (the scene in ESB when Han landed the Falcon on a tiny asteroid demonstrates that).

The point is that there are plausible explanations for many of these perceived scientific inconsistencies that no good storyteller would waste time explaining.

As far as Leia Poppins, I agree that this was one of the hokier parts of the movie, but every Star Wars film has had some degree of hokiness, and Leia's Force sensitivity has been well-established for 35+ years.  It had nothing to do with gravity; it had to do with the Force.  Did the film makers take time to tell us what (if anything) Leia had done in the X years between RotJ and TFA to learn about and control her force-based powers?  No; nor should they have done so.  One doesn't need to suspend disbelief to assume that she did that or that what happened was merely instinctual.

[lordxizor]

To get off the topic of TLJ and it's issues, let's have some speculation for Ep. 9.

What does everyone think: Will Kylo Ren be redeemed and come back to the good side, or will he be defeated by Rey?

[gmillerdrake]

What does everyone think: Will Kylo Ren be redeemed and come back to the good side, or will he be defeated by Rey?

I guess it depends on what they've done with the character in the 'time jump' that is hinted at happening. Has he surpassed Vadar's ruthlessness? Is he just outright 'evil' to the point of you don't even want him to 'come back' to the light? IMO he kind of sealed his fate with Rey at the end of TLJ....I don't think she's going to have any interest in wanting to 'save' him....only to kill him.

Plus I'd think that despite them saying that Leia is going to be in the film I'd think that it'll be limited to a few scenes of which she dies....probably by a raid or strike led by Ren. That'll tick Rey off even more.....so, I think she'll be more interested in killing him than trying to get him to come back to the light again.

[ariich]

Gravity in space?  Not sure I'm ok with that.

Then why are you ok with the ludicrously unrealistic artificial gravity in the spaceships?

[jingle.boy]

Gravity in space?  Not sure I'm ok with that.

Then why are you ok with the ludicrously unrealistic artificial gravity in the spaceships?

Perhaps because we don't have a realistic point of comparison in real life.  I dunno... I've always wondered how artificial gravity would work, but not too much.  Because we know there is no gravity in space, I have a realistic point of comparison as to why the bombs shouldn't just "drop" on their own.  Maybe I'm nitpicking, but as I said, if it was just a few issues, I'd probably get over it pretty quick.  But (for me), the movie had a lot of issues I couldn't get over.

[ronnibran]

The one part from the whole series that bugs me, but not enough to not enjoy the movie, is when they get off the Milennium Falcon in Empire, looking for Minochs.  I always assume the pressure and/or temperature would be an issue.

[ariich]

The one part from the whole series that bugs me, but not enough to not enjoy the movie, is when they get off the Milennium Falcon in Empire, looking for Minochs.  I always assume the pressure and/or temperature would be an issue.

It would. There'd be no meaningful atmosphere on an asteroid, and certainly not enough gravity for them to just walk around like that.

Not that it matters at all, but if people are going to nitpick over the falling bombs (which could actually easily be explained by the ship pushing them downwards, meaning no need for gravity) then they should certainly nitpick over this where there is no plausible scientific explanation.

[pg1067]

The one part from the whole series that bugs me, but not enough to not enjoy the movie, is when they get off the Milennium Falcon in Empire, looking for Minochs.  I always assume the pressure and/or temperature would be an issue.

It would. There'd be no meaningful atmosphere on an asteroid, and certainly not enough gravity for them to just walk around like that.

Not that it matters at all, but if people are going to nitpick over the falling bombs (which could actually easily be explained by the ship pushing them downwards, meaning no need for gravity) then they should certainly nitpick over this where there is no plausible scientific explanation.

Yup.

Also, "there is no gravity in space" is a demonstrably incorrect statement.

[Adami]

I would say that, if there are times when people aren't nitpicking, and times when they are, I would look at maybe why.

For instance, I can only speak for myself as a casual SW fan. I didn't care in the slightest bit about the gravity in the worm monster thing because I was so engaged with the plot, the characters, etc, that it just didn't matter. However, I did actually notice and think about the gravity of the bomb dropping moment in TLJ as well as how Rose' sister was able to so freely breathe in such an environment. At the time, I wasn't even a little engaged with the plot, the characters, etc. So the flaws stuck out to me more.

I think that's a big issue. I don't think it's fair to assume or imply some ulterior motives for people who notice and complain at times but not others. Sometimes the movies are good enough that we don't care, and sometimes they're not.

[Grappler]

So we're now debating if one's enjoyment of a story involving characters (and aliens, talking humanoid animals, and robots), that can use some magical power called 'The Force,' wield laser swords and ray-guns and participate in large space battles and interstellar travel at the speed of light, are completely and utterly hung up on whether or not the film appropriately shows how gravity might work in space?

You can suspend your belief for a bunch of crazy made up shit, but can't suspend your belief of something like bombs dropping in space? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUL7q8eyig8

[ariich]

I would say that, if there are times when people aren't nitpicking, and times when they are, I would look at maybe why.

For instance, I can only speak for myself as a casual SW fan. I didn't care in the slightest bit about the gravity in the worm monster thing because I was so engaged with the plot, the characters, etc, that it just didn't matter. However, I did actually notice and think about the gravity of the bomb dropping moment in TLJ as well as how Rose' sister was able to so freely breathe in such an environment. At the time, I wasn't even a little engaged with the plot, the characters, etc. So the flaws stuck out to me more.

I think that's a big issue. I don't think it's fair to assume or imply some ulterior motives for people who notice and complain at times but not others. Sometimes the movies are good enough that we don't care, and sometimes they're not.

But this is exactly my point.

I get that some people didn't enjoy the film as much. They can just say that. There's nothing wrong with just saying "I didn't like" it and explaining what you felt was lacking, whether that's in story terms or character or whatever.

What I find absurd is the way people also nitpick in this way to try and prove that a film is objectively inferior.

[Adami]

Oh I get you, but then you'd have all the fans discussing all the things they loved, in detail, while everyone else would be relegated to "I didn't personally care for it". Seems a bit boring. There's reasons they didn't care for it.

And I don't know why they'd have to point out first that they didn't care for it. That's obvious. It's like demanding you put "In my opinion" after every statement. Obviously it's your opinion, and obviously they didn't care for it.

[lordxizor]

I think there's a big difference between saying "I didn't care for the portrayal of Luke Skywalker and it ruined the movie for me" and "it was so unrealistic that the bombs would drop in space and it ruined the movie for me". The first is a major part of the film and to me an extremely valid reason to not care for it, the second is a tiny passing moment and really shouldn't be listed high up on a list of why someone didn't like a movie. There really isn't an equivalent for the opposite opinion of liking the movie. People don't usually pick out inconsequential moments as reasons they love a movie. I can see a combination of several inconsequential moments bringing a movie down a notch or two, but not listed as a primary reason many don't like a film like it seems to be with the stupid bombs dropping.

[ariich]

Oh I get you, but then you'd have all the fans discussing all the things they loved, in detail, while everyone else would be relegated to "I didn't personally care for it". Seems a bit boring. There's reasons they didn't care for it.

And I don't know why they'd have to point out first that they didn't care for it. That's obvious. It's like demanding you put "In my opinion" after every statement. Obviously it's your opinion, and obviously they didn't care for it.

I'm not sure you properly read my post (which is unusual for you, to be honest).

Of course people can talk about what they didn't like. Normally it will be down to pacing, or character, or plot, or all sorts of  things like that. People can talk about why they didn't enjoy those things. There are lots of ways that people can discuss their dislike of something (or why they like something less than another thing) that don't involve double standards.

[Adami]

Oh I get you, but then you'd have all the fans discussing all the things they loved, in detail, while everyone else would be relegated to "I didn't personally care for it". Seems a bit boring. There's reasons they didn't care for it.

And I don't know why they'd have to point out first that they didn't care for it. That's obvious. It's like demanding you put "In my opinion" after every statement. Obviously it's your opinion, and obviously they didn't care for it.

I'm not sure you properly read my post (which is unusual for you, to be honest).

Of course people can talk about what they didn't like. Normally it will be down to pacing, or character, or plot, or all sorts of  things like that. People can talk about why they didn't enjoy those things. There are lots of ways that people can discuss their dislike of something (or why they like something less than another thing) that don't involve double standards.

Nope! Totally misread your post. hah. I guess it's what happens when I try to read this between therapy sessions. My bad dawg!

But I think my overall point about double standards stands. For instance, I can complain all day long how horrible the CGI was in Wonder Woman, but not complain much about it in Infinity War because the movie didn't give me a reason to care. When the end of Wonder Woman came, I was so disengaged with everything that I focused on that nonsense and then that REALLY took me out of the movie. I would be lying if I didn't include the CGI at the end as a reason I didn't like it. That doesn't mean that every instance of sub-par CGi bothers me to the same degree or that it should. Or else I'm not allowed to complain about the poor writing of Jar Jar Binks while not batting an eye at (insert whomever from the original trilogy).

[Cool Chris]

For instance, I can only speak for myself as a casual SW fan. I didn't care in the slightest bit about the gravity in the worm monster thing because I was so engaged with the plot, the characters, etc, that it just didn't matter.

Would have typed this if I could have articulated it this concisely.

Incidentally, I have been very critical of TLJ, but it never occurred to me that it could have anything to do with Space Bombs or other weird Sci-Fi movie junk. I ju