Rank the Dream Theater mega-epics

[ReaPsTA]

Octavarium - Maybe DT's best song. Great lyrics and a ton of depth in the songwriting. All the sections go/flow together. All band members turn in great performances

IT - No idea where hate for this song comes from. Everyone hates the string section for some reason. It's epic/uplifting/philosophical and musically coherent. If people didn't love it then whatever but the fact it's at the bottom of the poll is baffling

ACOS - The classic. Probably the most authentically emotional. Great sections. Not quite the most coherent though. It's good but not great in that sense

6DOIT - Aged well for me. Not a huge fan of the third person lyrics in some sections but over time I've appreciated them more. Good musical sections/no junk in this song

Count/ITPOE - Both songs with great ideas but are ultimately deeply flawed. The long instrumental in ITPOE Pt. 2 after the huge build up (second servants of the fallen section) is so disappointed. Just a riff-o-rama after lyrically setting up the climactic battle of the story. As for Count I just can't get down for the lyrics. Too silly for the material.

[pg1067]

So , I never liked IR much

Illumination Reverie?

[The Letter M]

So , I never liked IR much

Illumination Reverie?

Illumination Rudess - it's just IT but Jordan plays every part with a dozen different instruments and devices.

-Marc.

[Dedalus]

01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).

02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)

03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).

04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).

05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).

06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).

[The Letter M]

01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).

02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)

03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).

04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).

05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).

06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).

I guess you really don't care enough for "The Count Of Tuscany" and "In The Presence Of Enemies" to get their titles right.

I will say their lyrics are a bit 🧀 and cringey at times, but for me that's part of the DT charm.

-Marc.

[darkshade]

The County of Tuscany is a great title if Weird Al did a DT parody.

[Dedalus]

01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).

02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)

03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).

04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).

05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).

06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).

I guess you really don't care enough for "The Count Of Tuscany" and "In The Presence Of Enemies" to get their titles right.

But yes, I don't listen to these songs anymore.

[nick_z]

1. A Change of Seasons is my favorite by some margin. An amazing song that, to this day, manages to grab me from beginning to end.

2. Octavarium is pretty great. However, while the clear homages and tips of the hat to the prog greats are a fun concept (as is the whole idea behind the song/album), they also prevent this song from reaching the pantheon of absolute DT greatness in my book 

3./4. Illumination Theory / Count of Tuscany: can't quite decide how to rank those, either could be third of fourth. Count of Tuscany has moments of musical bliss (that intro!), Illumination Theory doesn't quite reach those heights, but it has plenty of cool riffs and sections. I normally don't care about lyrics too much. If anything, I see them as potentially enhancing the experience if they are really good. Rarely do I consider them as actively detracting from the experience. I wouldn't say they actually do for Count of Tuscany, but they come close  I get that they are tongue-in-cheek. But they do bother me a bit, especially with how they clash with the mood of the music at times...and the ending is the worst offender ("Wait a minute man!"), as it verges on parody (which can be fun in certain contexts, but is not what I'm looking for in DT music...)

5. Six Degrees: I don't love this one...which is part of the reason I don't rank the album as high as most fans do. Some great parts (LOVE Solitary Shell), but I struggle to consider it a "single" epic.

6. In the Presence of Enemies: Part 1 is great - one of my favorite things on Systematic Chaos. Part 2 doesn't quite do it for me.

[DTwwbwMP]

A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

[Kotowboy]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

[Trav]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

For a lot of us, it was our "first love" for DT epics. And it's the only one that has the classic 90s DT sound. So if that's what you like best...ACOS is the winner.

[proggycat]

1.Octavarium
2.A Change of Seasons
3.Six degree of inner turbulence
4.Illumination theory
5.The Count of Tuscany
6.In the presence of enemies

I like all of these songs except for ITPOE 

[geeeemo]

1. Octavarium, IT, ITPOE, The Count Of Tuscany
2. 6 Degrees, ACOS

I can't do any better than that.

[pg1067]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

Putting aside that we all like what we like, here are my thoughts on ACOS v. SDOIT and 8VM:

SDOIT has the "is it a song or is it a suite of songs" thing.  Despite the band's statements, I have a hard time viewing it as a song.  I also find most of Goodnight Kiss to be a bit of a slog until it gets going toward the end.

As for 8VM, I've written many times what I think of the first 3 minutes and however many seconds.  Once the band kicks in, it's good, but most of Medicate and Someone Like Him are a bit snoozy.  I always find myself waiting for the synth solo at the 12-something minute mark.  After that, it's as good as anything they've done, but 12 minutes is a long time to have to wait.

For me, ACOS has NO low points.  Its tone and tempo rise and fall perfectly over its 20+ minute length.  There are so many epic moments in the song.  JP's tasty guitar tone in the Darkest of Winters, the dueling solos.  The airhorn section.  The epic 3/4 conclusion.  AND...AND...JM's bass is mostly audible.

[Trav]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

Putting aside that we all like what we like, here are my thoughts on ACOS v. SDOIT and 8VM:

SDOIT has the "is it a song or is it a suite of songs" thing.  Despite the band's statements, I have a hard time viewing it as a song.  I also find most of Goodnight Kiss to be a bit of a slog until it gets going toward the end.

As for 8VM, I've written many times what I think of the first 3 minutes and however many seconds.  Once the band kicks in, it's good, but most of Medicate and Someone Like Him are a bit snoozy.  I always find myself waiting for the synth solo at the 12-something minute mark.  After that, it's as good as anything they've done, but 12 minutes is a long time to have to wait.

For me, ACOS has NO low points.  Its tone and tempo rise and fall perfectly over its 20+ minute length.  There are so many epic moments in the song.  JP's tasty guitar tone in the Darkest of Winters, the dueling solos.  The airhorn section.  The epic 3/4 conclusion.  AND...AND...JM's bass is mostly audible.

All of this.

[Dream Team]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

You're not factoring in the lyrics or subject matter at all, where ACOS destroys the others. AUTHENTIC emotion.

[geeeemo]

I really enjoy ACOS, but the ending feels anti-climatic. I am ready to be done when it gets there.

[CDrice]

I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.

It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.

You're not factoring in the lyrics or subject matter at all, where ACOS destroys the others. AUTHENTIC emotion.

I disagree. "Gabba gabba hey hey my my generation's home again" are by far the most emotional and poignant lyrics in the bands whole catalog.

[DTwwbwMP]

Taking everything into consideration (lyrics, meaning, time changes, emotion, music, etc) is why ACOS is probably my favorite DT song (epic or not) of all time!

[DanLore]

Let's see...

1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence - An epic ride, and one that I take a half dozen times a year.  As someone stated earlier, DT in a nutshell. Great from start to finish.  (This is Dream Theater's 'Supper's Ready'.)
2. Octavarium - It's like a great meal, but with FOUR salad courses.  The salad is good, but it takes a while to get through it all before the entree, which is killer!  One of the best finishes to any epic.  When the French horn comes in, it's just beautiful!
3. A Change Of Season - The LSFNY version specifically.  The studio version is just OK, but live, its next level stuff.  (I heard the live version first, which is probably why I'm partial to it.)
4. Illumination Theory - Unlike most, I like the classical interlude.  It could have been blended a little better with the surrounding sections, but its a great piece of music.  Like SDOIT, its sees regular play.
5. The Count of Tuscany - I just like this tune.  The guitar intro, the rocking section, the 'Close To The Edge' section, the closing, all of it!  It's all good, and makes a great epic.
6. In The Presence Of Enemies - I like this tune overall.  The first 8-9 minutes is great as a stand alone.  (Maybe it should have been.)  Part 2 has many great moments, especially when the 'Patrick Moraz' part kicks in at the 13:12 mark.  The very end is a bit anti-climatic for an epic.  It sounds a bit tacked on.

Any good epic requires a big finish, needs to make those neck hairs stand up, and get those goose bumps going.  The truly great ones can bring on the tears.  Most of these check all of those boxes, at least for me.

DanLore

[pg1067]

3. A Change Of Season - The LSFNY version specifically.  The studio version is just OK, but live, its next level stuff.  (I heard the live version first, which is probably why I'm partial to it.)

Interesting perspective.

I had actually heard the 3/4/93 live version first.  I acquired it from a tape trader via the *Prodigy service in late 1993 (I still have the original cassette).  It's probably 25% different than what was released on the EP, and I had actually kind of forgotten about the song when a friend got the EP and played the song for me.  I still view the studio version as the "definitive" version, but the LSFNY version kicks all kinds of ass.