MP on not releasing pro-filmed Shattered Fortress: "I don't wanna rock the boat"

[zappafrank2112]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-doesnt-want-to-upset-his-former-bandmates-in-dream-theater-by-releasing-shattered-fortress-project/

I don't think the DT guys would care either way, honestly.

[KISS 76]

That's a shame. I was at the Melbourne show and it was a gig to remember. I really wanted a document from that tour. Hopefully both parties can come to an understanding and see that it was nothing more than a celebration and that it's no way in competition with any official DT release.

[PetFish]

Nothing in the DT camp has ever indicated they would be upset about anything whereas MP is the one who routinely gets upset.

I see no reason why he doesn't put this out, especially since part of the legalities of the split was that DT never do the entire thing without him, even though they probably would have just said "no problem, Mike, we won't" out of respect but he had to get it in writing.

[Volante99]

Nothing in the DT camp has ever indicated they would be upset about anything whereas MP is the one who routinely gets upset.

I see no reason why he doesn't put this out, especially since part of the legalities of the split was that DT never do the entire thing without him, even though they probably would have just said "no problem, Mike, we won't" out of respect but he had to get it in writing.

To be fair, you and I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I think this shows (a rare) side of restraint from Portnoy. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. He probably feels that if he releases it he's going to get a million questions about DT and it's 2010 all over again, and with his lack of ability to filter himself it would be only a matter of time before he says something stupid. So he made the call that it's probably best for DT, his current projects, and himself to just leave well enough alone.

[gzarruk]

Nothing in the DT camp has ever indicated they would be upset about anything whereas MP is the one who routinely gets upset.

I see no reason why he doesn't put this out, especially since part of the legalities of the split was that DT never do the entire thing without him, even though they probably would have just said "no problem, Mike, we won't" out of respect but he had to get it in writing.

That's not correct. Mike said around that time that he wished he did that (IIRC, it was during an interview with Trunk, where they were discussing the QR/Tate split and this topic came up), but that never happened. DT could play the whole thing if they wanted to, no problem. It won't happen, though, but only because there's no reason for them to do it.

[PetFish]

I thought it was either SFaM or TSF that he had to negotiate for and since they played SFaM that means TSF was off-limits?  I'm sure he had to fight for something.  Hmmm.

[KevShmev]

That's a shame. I was at the Melbourne show and it was a gig to remember. I really wanted a document from that tour. Hopefully both parties can come to an understanding and see that it was nothing more than a celebration and that it's no way in competition with any official DT release.

I don't think it's a matter of competition so much that it would be a case of another band releasing an entire concert comprised entirely of their intellectual property, which is something DT management would have to get involved in to protect their brand.  Remember that all of those songs played on the Shattered Fortress tour are credited to the entire band (minus JLB on a few, I think), so it's not like they just played a bunch of Dream Theater songs solely credited to Mike Portnoy.  Ultimately, music is a business as well, which certainly gets in the way of cool stuff at times.

[zappafrank2112]

I don't think it's a matter of competition so much that it would be a case of another band releasing an entire concert comprised entirely of their intellectual property, which is something DT management would have to get involved in to protect their brand.  Remember that all of those songs played on the Shattered Fortress tour are credited to the entire band (minus JLB on a few, I think), so it's not like they just played a bunch of Dream Theater songs solely credited to Mike Portnoy.  Ultimately, music is a business as well, which certainly gets in the way of cool stuff at times.

Yeah, but Ozzy played plenty of Sabbath stuff right out of the gate, Jon Anderson and his collaborations have played plenty of Yes stuff, Fish has played plenty of Marillion stuff, Steve Hackett has done entire tours dedicated to nothing but his time in Genesis, etc. etc..  Hell, Mindcrime aside, Geoff Tate is about to tour playing nothing but Rage for Order and Empire, and that stuff was credited to others besides him, and no one in the QR camp is raising a fuss (or even cares, probably).

So it really isn't a case of appropriating the intellectual property of an entire group of people of which someone was a part.  As long as MP still has ownership in that stuff, DT really has no recourse in stopping him.  In fact, if they do share publishing rights, then they should welcome the extra money that would come.  I think MP really is talking more from an "ethical/etiquette" standpoint.

[Progmetty]

Why he film it just so he can say that?

[ytserush]

Realistically, How well would something like this sell anyway?

[zappafrank2112]

Realistically, How well would something like this sell anyway?

Depends on how it's put out.  If it's put out via Mike himself, in batches somewhat independently, there's really no risk of him losing money on it.  I don't think anyone would necessarily expect a huge InsideOut type/multiple variants release.  I'd imagine there's a market for sure, due to Mike himself being involved.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, but Ozzy played plenty of Sabbath stuff right out of the gate, Jon Anderson and his collaborations have played plenty of Yes stuff, Fish has played plenty of Marillion stuff, Steve Hackett has done entire tours dedicated to nothing but his time in Genesis, etc. etc..  Hell, Mindcrime aside, Geoff Tate is about to tour playing nothing but Rage for Order and Empire, and that stuff was credited to others besides him, and no one in the QR camp is raising a fuss (or even cares, probably).

Touring and releasing a live album/DVD are two different things, if I am not mistaken, and I know that Tate negotiated the rights to Mindcrime as a whole when he departed Queensryche (I have no idea about those other scenarios above).

So it really isn't a case of appropriating the intellectual property of an entire group of people of which someone was a part.  As long as MP still has ownership in that stuff, DT really has no recourse in stopping him.  In fact, if they do share publishing rights, then they should welcome the extra money that would come.  I think MP really is talking more from an "ethical/etiquette" standpoint.

I doubt DT would mind the extra money that would roll in from a release like this, but on the flip side, I think it would piss Portnoy off to have to give them any money for playing what he feels are "his" songs, especially since a release like this is likely to not make a lot of money in the first place.

Realistically, How well would something like this sell anyway?

Depends on how it's put out.  If it's put out via Mike himself, in batches somewhat independently, there's really no risk of him losing money on it.  I don't think anyone would necessarily expect a huge InsideOut type/multiple variants release.  I'd imagine there's a market for sure, due to Mike himself being involved.

With all due respect, I think the lack of success of most of his projects post-DT demonstrates that Portnoy's draw/market has been oversold by many.  That said, a show of all Dream Theater might do a little better than his other projects sales-wise, but it's still not Dream Theater, and I don't think we can underestimate the draw of their brand name (relatively speaking).

[Madman Shepherd]

I doubt DT would mind the extra money that would roll in from a release like this, but on the flip side, I think it would piss Portnoy off to have to give them any money for playing what he feels are "his" songs, especially since a release like this is likely to not make a lot of money in the first place.

I think this is the real issue. Mike even joked in a tweet or something about fans doing a kickstarter for the release. That tells me that it's more of a money thing since it would be 100% cover songs.

Legally, anybody can cover and release a song by another artist BUT it is extremely beneficial to get permission so you can negotiate lower royalty or sync fees. Weird Al does this. If he didn't, he would make very little money off of his biggest songs and it would be nearly impossible to make a career off of it.

I doubt Dream Theater is very interested in negotiating a lower fee for Mike to release his pet project.

[Lonk]

Today, September 8th, marks the 9 year anniversary of MP's departure from DT. As much as I appreciate his talent and what he brought to DT, I'm kind of over the drama he still brings to DT. It's been 9 incredible years for DT, where they put out 2 great albums and 2 really good albums.

With that said, I really enjoyed the shattered fortress show, it was great, and I'm sure some people who didn't have a chance to see it would love to get it on DVD/BR. It's similar to Roger Waters playing The Wall without Pink Floyd.

[MoraWintersoul]

I just don't think they would care, but obviously he knows them better than I do. Maybe he's afraid of asking and maybe this is his way of kind of asking around it. I hope JP reads this interview and texts him about meeting up to sort out an agreement. Mike worked really hard to put that show together and he loves releasing DVDs as career milestones - I'd love it if he released it.

[DTA]

Does everything need a dvd nowadays? Just release live videos on youtube so everyone can see them and let that be it. I think MP is being smart about this...it would ultimately reconnect him to the DT camp and possibly taint his rekindled friendship with JP.   

[gmillerdrake]

Just release live videos on youtube so everyone can see them and let that be it.

Totally this. I mean, it's essentially already there anyway.....just not the 'produced' version he's speaking of. You can find every song of the Suite on Youtube anyway....so why not just 'leak' it and be done with it.


And...I still find it funny that the whole 'he approached the band to rejoin but was rebuffed' angle is still being promoted. Especially when it's presented as it was the guys in DT who kept him out or something like that. He went back to DT AFTER Avengeld Sevenfold told him they had no intentions of offering him a full time job....that after he completed his contract and obligation to them for the tour they hired him for they were parting ways. Only then did he try to get back in to DT.

[Stadler]

We talk about "Mike" and "John" and "DT"; bear in mind that there are often third parties involved for whom there is no (or little) emotion and just dollars and cents.  I'm not saying that's the case here, but these things than be complicated.  I also know, from professional experience, that there's a big - HUGE - difference between "I really don't want you to do that" and "I can legally stop you from doing it". 

Me? I was at the show in NY, and while it was a great event and I had a lot of fun (met up with some forum-ers to boot), but I'm not really sold on the Haken guys so for me it wasn't like seeing The Wall recreated or anything epic like that.   I'm not a guaranteed buyer on that, for sure.

[zappafrank2112]

Yeah, but Ozzy played plenty of Sabbath stuff right out of the gate, Jon Anderson and his collaborations have played plenty of Yes stuff, Fish has played plenty of Marillion stuff, Steve Hackett has done entire tours dedicated to nothing but his time in Genesis, etc. etc..  Hell, Mindcrime aside, Geoff Tate is about to tour playing nothing but Rage for Order and Empire, and that stuff was credited to others besides him, and no one in the QR camp is raising a fuss (or even cares, probably).

Touring and releasing a live album/DVD are two different things, if I am not mistaken, and I know that Tate negotiated the rights to Mindcrime as a whole when he departed Queensryche (I have no idea about those other scenarios above).

Well, Ozzy did release an album of nothing but Sabbath covers (Speak of the Devil) and Hackett has released multiple "Genesis Revisited" albums.

[cramx3]

I'm not sure the guys in DT would care, maybe "DT the brand" as a whole cares as in the label/management.  Not sure.  Either way, I think it would be cool and I kind of expect it to see the light of day, just might not be for awhile until "rocking the boat" is fairly meaningless.  I'll buy it when it comes out though, that show was really fun and I'd love to have a professional video of it.

[gzarruk]

Does everything need a dvd nowadays? Just release live videos on youtube so everyone can see them and let that be it.

Totally, but I think MP expects to earn some money with it, if it ever gets released. He's not really one of those "here it is for free for all of you" artists.

And...I still find it funny that the whole 'he approached the band to rejoin but was rebuffed' angle is still being promoted. Especially when it's presented as it was the guys in DT who kept him out or something like that. He went back to DT AFTER Avengeld Sevenfold told him they had no intentions of offering him a full time job....that after he completed his contract and obligation to them for the tour they hired him for they were parting ways. Only then did he try to get back in to DT.

"But I already put out my press release"

To be fair though, it's Blabbermouth, they use every bit of drama they can on their posts, no matter if it's something from 9 years ago. But, yea, Mike totally wanted it to work a certain way, and when A7X were like "no, man, too much drama with you", he realized what he had done and tried a last minute save. When that didn't work either, he vented the situation online trying to make the band look bad, because he does everything "for the fans".

[MinistroRaven]

Does everything need a dvd nowadays? Just release live videos on youtube so everyone can see them and let that be it. I think MP is being smart about this...it would ultimately reconnect him to the DT camp and possibly taint his rekindled friendship with JP.

Well that may be the route:

[Zook]

He loves dangling string in front of cats.

[Anxiety35]

I think it's a class move by MP. Not wanting to stir the pot for the sake of maintaining his friendships with JP and JR.

So why did he bother having it professionally videoed? Maybe at the time he had future plans to release it, but afterwards thought twice about it and decided to shelve it.

[Chino]

I'll be the outlier here. Mike choosing not to release this has almost nothing to do with the DT band members themselves and everything to do with the shitstorm it would create on the internet and in comment sections.

[goo-goo]

Mike usually records everything, whether he is releasing it or not. If it's a special show (like TSF shows) he will go the extra mile and get it edited and mixed properly. IIRC, he even said it very early on that he was going to record it but wasn't sure on how to handle it if he released it (he did mention a "red tape" comment referring to the legalities involved if he released it).

[JayOctavarium]

I'll be the outlier here. Mike choosing not to release this has almost nothing to do with the DT band members themselves and everything to do with the shitstorm it would create on the internet and in comment sections.

That's what I am thinking.

I'm sure DT wouldn't give a damn.

It's not like releasing this video from this One-Off tour is going to hurt DT's ticket / album sales... even if DT decided that they wanted to tour and play the 12 Steps Suite live, which they would probably have no interest in. I'd buy The Shattered Fortress DVD as well as a ticket to see DT

[bosk1]

I'm sure DT wouldn't give a damn.

I wouldn't make that assumption.  I mean, I'm not saying it isn't correct.  But I know I wouldn't make that assumption. 

[JayOctavarium]

Be careful Bosk,

Blabbermouth is going to misquote you, misrepresenting you as a lawyer representing the band

[bosk1]

 

[EPIC Outro]

I've heard multiple people say DT will never play the 12 Step Suite all the way through live.

I personally believe, and hope, they will.

[Nachtmerrie]

Realistically, How well would something like this sell anyway?

It would be an instant buy for me. I went to two of TSF shows and those are two of best shows I've seen over the last few years.

On the other hand I totally understand MP doesn't want to upset DT or JP/JR in any way. Let's hope him 'not rocking the boat' gives us LTE3 and who knows what more they come up with.

[bosk1]

Realistically, How well would something like this sell anyway?

It would be an instant buy for me.

I think it would be an instant buy for a lot of hardcore fans.  But the bigger question is whether it would be an instant buy for the casual fans out there.  I'm not so sure it would.

I know for me, I would definitely buy it, even notwithstanding the vocals (and I think he did a MUCH better job with these songs than with the Haken material). 

[gzarruk]

This is a bit out of the discussion topic, but I always thought Mike's lineup for the Shattered Fortress shows was overkill. Bringing 3 (or even 2) guitarists was unnecessary, and it felt like MP just wanted to take all of Haken (sans Ray) with him for the sake of bringing all of Haken. Tejeida, Gillette, Jennings, Green and Portnoy would've been enough. But that's just me nitpicking

On the other hand I totally understand MP doesn't want to upset DT or JP/JR in any way. Let's hope him 'not rocking the boat' gives us LTE3 and who knows what more they come up with.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the need for LTE 3 at all. I'd rather have MP back at DT than them making another LTE album.




... and I really don't want MP back at DT.

[TAC]

I've heard multiple people say DT will never play the 12 Step Suite all the way through live.

I personally believe, and hope, they will.

I don't. It's 5 extremely average songs.

Though I do love TDS.