Train of Thought vs. Your favorite from the Mangini era

[Peter Mc]

Very easy for me, not only would I take my favourite Mangini era album over Train Of Thought, I would take any Mangini era album over Train Of Thought. I don't dislike TOT, not at all, but it is one of my least favourite of DT's albums. Octavarium takes the bottom spot but TOT might just be 2nd from bottom although Black Clouds might just pip it to that spot.

[Northern Lion]

Very easy for me, not only would I take my favourite Mangini era album over Train Of Thought, I would take any Mangini era album over Train Of Thought. I don't dislike TOT, not at all, but it is one of my least favourite of DT's albums. Octavarium takes the bottom spot but TOT might just be 2nd from bottom although Black Clouds might just pip it to that spot.

I pretty much agree with you.  ToT is great, but largely not as good as the Mangini era.  My only exception is DT12, which I rank even with ToT.

[KevShmev]

It could have been, had I been a bigger fan of for instance Metallica and Megadeath.
It's cool enough music and works at certain times but it's not something I choose to listen to too often.

Anyway I'm glad they did record it and I like it. To be in the bottom third  of Dream Theaters discography is no mean feat as that means you are in the top third (at least) of all records I have.

Hmmm, I have never really thought of that way. I am not much of a fan of Megadeth (maybe a handful of songs), and would call myself a fan of Metallica, but not a big fan, and yet I would now call myself a pretty big fan of Train of Thought.  Heck, I am more of a prog guy than a metal guy, yet my favorite DT album is Awake, which I think most would agree is one of their three heaviest records to date.  You just never know what's going grab ya, is the moral of the story.

[wolfking]

TOT.

[ytserush]

Even my least favorite Mangini era album (and I'm not even sure which one that would be) I like better than Train Of Thought.

Endless Sacrifice, Stream Of Consciousness and In The Name Of God  are great songs though.

[nikatapi]

I consider ToT to be one of the best Dream Theater albums, so no comparison for me.
Might be also because it's my first DT album and holds a special place in my heart.

[nobloodyname]

Train of Thought had that edge that makes DT special. Octavarium had that edge that makes DT special. Nothing since has had it.

Yes.

Train of Thought has become my go-to DT album over the years. (I can even enjoy In the Name of God now. And it doesn't have an insufferable ballad, either.)

[Herrick]

Train of Thought is good but I think A Dramatic Turn of Events, the self-titled album, and maybe even Distance Over Time are better albums.

[Fritzinger]

I voted for Train Of Thought. I like all of the Mangini-era albums, but Train Of Thought was one of my very first albums by Dream Theater and getting to know it honestly changed my whole life.

[Blokhut]

DOT for me (with ToT a close 2nd)

[TAC]

I am not much of a fan of Megadeth (maybe a handful of songs), and would call myself a fan of Metallica, but not a big fan, and yet I would now call myself a pretty big fan of Train of Thought.  Heck, I am more of a prog guy than a metal guy, yet my favorite DT album is Awake, which I think most would agree is one of their three heaviest records to date.  You just never know what's going grab ya, is the moral of the story.

Kev, I totally get what you are saying, but for me, I'm just the opposite. I'm not a prog guy but I love when DT does it. I like how DT exposes me to prog in a comfortable hard rock setting, just as they dress up their metal side in a Prog framework for you. I'm sure you don't go to DT for your prog, just as I don't go to DT for my metal.

[Ben_Jamin]

Endless Sacrifice, Stream Of Consciousness and In The Name Of God  are great songs though.

Indeed, they're the only songs I really choose to listen to.

[KevShmev]

I am not much of a fan of Megadeth (maybe a handful of songs), and would call myself a fan of Metallica, but not a big fan, and yet I would now call myself a pretty big fan of Train of Thought.  Heck, I am more of a prog guy than a metal guy, yet my favorite DT album is Awake, which I think most would agree is one of their three heaviest records to date.  You just never know what's going grab ya, is the moral of the story.

Kev, I totally get what you are saying, but for me, I'm just the opposite. I'm not a prog guy but I love when DT does it. I like how DT exposes me to prog in a comfortable hard rock setting, just as they dress up their metal side in a Prog framework for you. I'm sure you don't go to DT for your prog, just as I don't go to DT for my metal.

Very true.

[ytserush]

I am not much of a fan of Megadeth (maybe a handful of songs), and would call myself a fan of Metallica, but not a big fan, and yet I would now call myself a pretty big fan of Train of Thought.  Heck, I am more of a prog guy than a metal guy, yet my favorite DT album is Awake, which I think most would agree is one of their three heaviest records to date.  You just never know what's going grab ya, is the moral of the story.

Kev, I totally get what you are saying, but for me, I'm just the opposite. I'm not a prog guy but I love when DT does it. I like how DT exposes me to prog in a comfortable hard rock setting, just as they dress up their metal side in a Prog framework for you. I'm sure you don't go to DT for your prog, just as I don't go to DT for my metal.

Queensryche was another one of the few that did that for me too and then DeGarmo left.

[hunnus2000]

Train of Thought is the last of the classic era DT albums IMO.   Although it is not a personal favorite, I still consider it to be an album by a band firing on all cylinders in their prime.   I listened to it yesterday and really enjoyed it, I lean more prog but as a metal album it's inspired and kicks you in the nuts (in a good way).

Interesting, I didn't know there is a good way to be kicked in the nuts. 

[Northern Lion]

Train of Thought is the last of the classic era DT albums IMO.   Although it is not a personal favorite, I still consider it to be an album by a band firing on all cylinders in their prime.   I listened to it yesterday and really enjoyed it, I lean more prog but as a metal album it's inspired and kicks you in the nuts (in a good way).

Interesting, I didn't know there is a good way to be kicked in the nuts. 

I wish I would have known that when I was 10.  "Hey bullies, before you beat me up and kick me in the nuts, please play Train of Thought by Dream Theater first if you don't mind".

[Stadler]

See, I'm a prog guy, but there's a lot of prog I don't like.  I'm a metal guy, but there's a lot of metal I don't like (other than Metallica, I find a lot of thrash to be one-note and cartoony).  Like TAC, I seem to like it when DT does it; Train Of Thought took a long time to grow on me (I'm an Images and Words/Octavarium fan) but grow it has, and I like it today.   It's still in the bottom third of the catalog for me, but I like it.   It's hard for me to say that "I like this better than that", because it's all relative, but generally, if I'm going to put on a DT record, it's not going to be ToT, nor is it going to be any of the Mangini-era records.  They just haven't clicked with me much. 

I'd probably rate them like this:

1. Dream Theater
2a. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
2b. Train Of Thought
3. Distance Over Time
4. The Astonishing

But all of them are well below the crown jewels, which to me are Images And Words, SFAM, Octavarium, Awake, and Six Degrees. 

[gzarruk]

But all of them are well below the crown jewels, which to me are Images And Words, SFAM, Octavarium, Awake, and Six Degrees.

Take Octavarium out, and you have my top 4 MP era DT albums there. With the exception of FII, that was a flawless album run (from IAW to SDOIT). TOT was a step down in quality, imo.

[bosk1]

But all of them are well below the crown jewels, which to me are Images And Words, SFAM, Octavarium, Awake, and Six Degrees.

Take Octavarium out, and you have my top 4 MP era DT albums there. With the exception of FII, that was a flawless album run (from IAW to SDOIT). TOT was a step down in quality, imo.

Your last sentence really jumped out at me.  I don't like TOT nearly as much as either that early run of albums or the Mangini-era run of albums.  It ranks near the bottom of DT's discography to me.  But I don't feel there is any drop in quality.  I just didn't like the overall direction as much as I do most of their other albums.  It isn't an issue of quality at all for me.

[gzarruk]

But all of them are well below the crown jewels, which to me are Images And Words, SFAM, Octavarium, Awake, and Six Degrees.

Take Octavarium out, and you have my top 4 MP era DT albums there. With the exception of FII, that was a flawless album run (from IAW to SDOIT). TOT was a step down in quality, imo.

Your last sentence really jumped out at me.  I don't like TOT nearly as much as either that early run of albums or the Mangini-era run of albums.  It ranks near the bottom of DT's discography to me.  But I don't feel there is any drop in quality.  I just didn't like the overall direction as much as I do most of their other albums.  It isn't an issue of quality at all for me.

Well, I'm not implying it's a bad album or anything like that, but I just think that, compared to the other 4 albums I just mentioned, TOT was a step down. Might be because of the direction they took, as you say, and one of my personal issues with the album is that I feel they under-utilized Jordan, and this was after releasing two mindblowing albums in the keyboard department. On most of the heavier tracks/sections he's just doubling the riff and, while he does some pretty amazing stuff anyway, he did SO MUCH MORE on SDOIT that TOT pales in comparison.

[Podaar]

ToT, on the whole, is a step back from the awesome of earlier releases, but it will always have a special place in my heart because of the completely awesome Vacant/Stream of Consciousnesses one-two punch. Jordan is fantastic in SoC and I'm a big fan of instrumentals that explore variations on a main theme.

[jjfumbly]

In the Name of God is a powerful song.

[Northern Lion]

In the Name of God is a powerful song.

Yes it is.  IMHO it is the best song on ToT and among my favorites in the greater DT discography.

[Dublagent66]

I like every song on ToT.  The only album in the MM era I can say that about is D/T and I prefer that slightly over ToT.

[RuRoRul]

Very easily Train Of Thought, but then I'd probably take Train of Thought vs. almost any other DT album.

[Volante99]

What's interesting to me is that I think ToT and D/T had a similar collaborative (and quick) writing process but suffer from almost opposite issues IMO.

Whereas ToT seems a bit over-arranged, songs drag a bit too long, too noodle-y, D/T is almost too straight forward, some of the songs seem like they need more time in the oven.

The fact  that ToT was written in 3 weeks is insane. As an intermediate guitar player it could easily take me 3 months to even learn the material, let alone write it. DT are not normal human beings, that much is clear.

[Max Kuehnau]

What’s interesting to me is that I think ToT and D/T had a similar collaborative (and quick) writing process but suffer from almost opposite issues IMO.

Whereas ToT seems a bit over-arranged, songs drag a bit too long, too noodle-y, D/T is almost too straight forward, some of the songs seem like they need more time in the oven.

The fact  that ToT was written in 3 weeks is insane. As an intermediate guitar player it could easily take me 3 months to even learn the material, let alone write it. DT are not normal human beings, that much is clear.

While I agree with you concerning D/T's pieces needing a bit (or a lot) more time to be fully finished as it were (possibly except PBD and maybe even Out Of Reach), I think TOT might have needed that too, but that's just my opinion (imagine MM playing on that album already, then these songs might have been even more fully worked out, I may be wrong about that as well though). Still, them finishing TOT in 3 weeks was (at the time) impressive, seeing as these songs were quite a bit more dense than quite a few other ones (if that's a fitting descriptive), particularly those pre-Met2.

[KidInTheDark666]

I would take Train of Thought over a compilation album of the best Mangini era songs. ToT is amazing.

[Revenge319]

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think Train of Thought might be my least favorite Dream Theater album. That's largely due to the song "Honor Thy Father", which while I can't say it's outright bad, it's easily my least favorite Dream Theater song. The rest of the album is really good, though. However, even though I do enjoy most of the album, something does feel slightly off for most songs. Maybe it's just the usage of swearing in some songs, but something doesn't feel right.
Having said that, TDS, SoC, and ITNoG are all amazing, and As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and Vacant aren't far behind.

[Herrick]

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think Train of Thought might be my least favorite Dream Theater album. That's largely due to the song "Honor Thy Father", which while I can't say it's outright bad, it's easily my least favorite Dream Theater song. The rest of the album is really good, though. However, even though I do enjoy most of the album, something does feel slightly off for most songs. Maybe it's just the usage of swearing in some songs, but something doesn't feel right.
Having said that, TDS, SoC, and ITNoG are all amazing, and As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and Vacant aren't far behind.

Well only speaking for Herrick, LaBrie's voice just doesn't suit "The Heavy Badassery Vibe". But other than that, yeah there is something just a little bit awkward about the whole album. I cannot explain it. This awkwardery doesn't exist on their other heavier songs like A Nightmare to Remember or The Glass Prison. I really hate saying it feels forced, but it feels a bit forced.

[Revenge319]

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think Train of Thought might be my least favorite Dream Theater album. That's largely due to the song "Honor Thy Father", which while I can't say it's outright bad, it's easily my least favorite Dream Theater song. The rest of the album is really good, though. However, even though I do enjoy most of the album, something does feel slightly off for most songs. Maybe it's just the usage of swearing in some songs, but something doesn't feel right.
Having said that, TDS, SoC, and ITNoG are all amazing, and As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and Vacant aren't far behind.

Well only speaking for Herrick, LaBrie's voice just doesn't suit "The Heavy Badassery Vibe". But other than that, yeah there is something just a little bit awkward about the whole album. I cannot explain it. This awkwardery doesn't exist on their other heavier songs like A Nightmare to Remember or The Glass Prison. I really hate saying it feels forced, but it feels a bit forced.

For me, I don't think it's LaBrie's voice; it sounds perfectly fine. But yeah, with stuff like The Glass Prison, A Nightmare to Remember, and their various other really heavy songs, this awkward feeling isn't there at all.

[TAC]

I chalk it up to ToT's production, which is pretty sterile. These songs are amazing live.

[fatfabi]

Each Mangini-era record beats ToT in my book. I listen to ToT from time to time, but nothing on it is "perfect" in my opinion. Every one of the Mangini albums contains at least one track I condiser to be perfect. (Breaking All Illusions, Bridges in the Sky, Illumination Theory, Barstool Warrior, Lord Nafaryus among others)
ToT definitely has its moments, but I really don't care about some of its shreddy parts (ES, TDS) and I'm not into the production, which sounds way too sterile to me. I'm not into the drum sound of the recent albums (LIKE ADTOE and DoT, dislike the drum tone on the other two), but all other instruments/vox sound great on them. Can't say the same about ToT, especially the vocals.

[Max Kuehnau]

Each Mangini-era record beats ToT in my book. I listen to ToT from time to time, but nothing on it is "perfect" in my opinion. Every one of the Mangini albums contains at least one track I condiser to be perfect. (Breaking All Illusions, Bridges in the Sky, Illumination Theory, Barstool Warrior, Lord Nafaryus among others)
ToT definitely has its moments, but I really don't care about some of its shreddy parts (ES, TDS) and I'm not into the production, which sounds way too sterile to me. I'm not into the drum sound of the recent albums (LIKE ADTOE and DoT, dislike the drum tone on the other two), but all other instruments/vox sound great on them. Can't say the same about ToT, especially the vocals.

TOT does not sound sterile to me, rather dirty (similar to D/T and FII), I agree that all MM-era albums beat TOT. You want sterility? I give you DT12.

[fatfabi]

Each Mangini-era record beats ToT in my book. I listen to ToT from time to time, but nothing on it is "perfect" in my opinion. Every one of the Mangini albums contains at least one track I condiser to be perfect. (Breaking All Illusions, Bridges in the Sky, Illumination Theory, Barstool Warrior, Lord Nafaryus among others)
ToT definitely has its moments, but I really don't care about some of its shreddy parts (ES, TDS) and I'm not into the production, which sounds way too sterile to me. I'm not into the drum sound of the recent albums (LIKE ADTOE and DoT, dislike the drum tone on the other two), but all other instruments/vox sound great on them. Can't say the same about ToT, especially the vocals.

TOT does not sound sterile to me, rather dirty (similar to D/T and FII), I agree that all MM-era albums beat TOT. You want sterility? I give you DT12.

technically speaking none of them sound "dirty", (think Surfer Rosa, that is a "dirty" sound), they are all fairly polished
what I meant was the tones themselves, I'm not into JPs sound on DT12, but it's an identifiable and unique tone. ToT thounds so unintersting to my ears, like "metal mix by numbers"; DT12 has a bass tone that is present and interesting, ToT bass is "there" but sounds totally uninspired. Could go on..
I mean I do get your point, DT12 still sounds sterile