Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea

[bosk1]

I think marriage is a great idea.  Thankfully, someone a whole lot wiser than me thought it up.

[cramx3]

Sure marriage can be great and often is great, but we as humans have our faults and sometimes marriage isn't best for everyone or specifically certain couples.  I seem to have not be able to make it work myself so I can't say any personal experience from marriage but right now my coworker is going through a nasty divorce (and has been out all week due to moving and lawyers and stuff) so I think Orbert's got it right.  Compromises, and not just in the relationship but in finding the right person.

Honestly, this specific scenario isn't something due to marriage either. I've experienced lots of similar just from having gf's or even roommates and it's these things that you adapt and just kind of accept for the relationship or friendship to work.

[The Walrus]

The only two upsides of being married for me personally would be splitting the bills/additional income as well as someone either calling 911 and potentially saving me if I had a heart attack or something as opposed to being found on the floor by police on Wednesday because I didn't show up to work Monday which with every passing day is how I fear I will leave this cold and heartless world, frightened and clutching my chest as gravity pulls me to my final resting place on the unmopped wooden dining room floor

yeah

[Phoenix87x]

I'd rather just not get married and enjoy a long term relationship with someone.

[cramx3]

The only two upsides of being married for me personally would be splitting the bills/additional income as well as someone either calling 911 and potentially saving me if I had a heart attack or something as opposed to being found on the floor by police on Wednesday because I didn't show up to work Monday which with every passing day is how I fear I will leave this cold and heartless world, frightened and clutching my chest as gravity pulls me to my final resting place on the unmopped wooden dining room floor

yeah

well until you meet the right woman, maybe you will change your mind.

I definitely had my doubts about ever being married after ending an engagement and still have those doubts but time heals all wounds.  Anything is possible.  But it still comes down to compromise and that's something I struggle with being a selfish prick most of the time.  Anyway... this is now the lonely hearts thread?

[The Walrus]

The only two upsides of being married for me personally would be splitting the bills/additional income as well as someone either calling 911 and potentially saving me if I had a heart attack or something as opposed to being found on the floor by police on Wednesday because I didn't show up to work Monday which with every passing day is how I fear I will leave this cold and heartless world, frightened and clutching my chest as gravity pulls me to my final resting place on the unmopped wooden dining room floor

yeah

well until you meet the right woman, maybe you will change your mind.

I definitely had my doubts about ever being married after ending an engagement and still have those doubts but time heals all wounds.  Anything is possible.  But it still comes down to compromise and that's something I struggle with being a selfish prick most of the time.  Anyway... this is now the lonely hearts thread?

I should probably head over to that thread yeah. But there's no way I can see myself ever getting married. Unless I find someone whose idea of a perfect relationship is living in the same place but spending like 90% of the day in separate rooms doing our own things. That would be cool

[cramx3]

You never know although that certainly doesn't sound like any female I know, but I'm sure one does exist with this belief

[The Walrus]

You know even thinking about that, that's still some level of commitment

I'll stick with the single life. I like having absolutely zero involvement with another person

[RoeDent]

Well, if there was ever proof of how predominantly masculine this place is, here it is...

[Stadler]

I hate to be that guy, but to some degree, age plays a part.  I was 32/33 when I got married the first time, and believe me, at 25, the idea of being tied down to the same woman, blah blah blah, was anathema.   I didn't see how that made any sense whatsoever.   

It is, though, very much a personal thing, and I admire those that avoid it as a conscious decision.   To me that's a sign of maturity and awareness. 

Although, Katt, there's something very Charles Bukowski about being found lying on your kitchen floor clutching your chest a week and a half later. 

[cramx3]

I will add that being single and living alone, the thought of something happening and being found dead a week later is kind of sick and sad and definitely drives me to not want that to be a reality.  Like with my body eaten by my cat who hasn't been fed in a week as well.

[The Walrus]

Good thing I don't have pets! Only people I'll disappointment are the landlord and my boss! 

[bosk1]

But the mice...

[The Walrus]

The mice were vanquished some time ago, thankfully. That, and I sealed up every hole in my apartment and body with Wacky Glue.

[bosk1]

They always find a way.  Always.

[The Walrus]

 

[Northern Lion]

I think marriage is an increasingly tough choice in this day and age.  A 50% success rate are not good odds.  And this comes from a man who is happily married.

I would say that you can do a few things to increase your chances.  Marry someone you're compatable with.  Fire and Ice don't mix well.  But it also goes beyond that...

Look for someone who has the same politics as you.
Look for someone who has the same religion as you (or lack thereof).
Look for someone who has the same family outlook as you (agree on kids and parenting).
Look for someone with the same culture/growing up experience as you (not race, I don't think that matters).
Look for someone who has similar eating habbits as you.
Look for someone who's parents are still married.

No offence intended to any of you who have a successful marriage and some of these don't apply.  I just found this very helpful when I was looking for someone to marry.

But I will say that my wife and I check all these boxes.

This is what I think of when I think "compatable"

[cramx3]

I think two people both need to have their needs met in a relationship and there's no right or wrong way to make that happen but that's what makes people compatible.  I don't think today's modern society of constant satisfaction makes marriage easy.

[Orbert]

In 2005, I started what eventually became my current job, and I had two co-workers who were both lifelong bachelors.  Rick and Gene were both in their 40's, as was I at the time.  Gene had been with Nancy for 17 years, they lived together and were common-law spouses, but were not married and had no intention of ever getting married.  Gene retired a few years ago and rode off into the sunset with Nancy.  Rick and Julie had been together for a while, and three years later they were married.  Rick retired a while back, too, with Julie.  Their situations (the two couples, that is) were basically exactly the same.  They'd been together for years, lived together for years, will probably die together.  The only difference is that Rick and Julie finally decided "what the hell" and got married at 50something, and Gene and Nancy didn't.

Getting old sucks anyway, but I have to imagine that getting old alone has to suck more than getting old but having someone with you on the journey who can help you and who you can help.  I come on DTF and bitch sometimes about my wife or women or whatever, but it's all just philosophical, just discussion.

And does it really matter if you're married or just "with someone"?  No, not if it doesn't matter to you or her (or him).  But I'd still rather be with someone than alone as I get older.

[H2]

Dang, thanks for all the input, guys. Just to clarify, I think marriage and family are good things (and God-ordained). I venture to say that it's something almost all people should strive for if they want to live their fullest life (and something I do want to strive for). However, despite thinking that marriage is a good thing, I think it's equally true that some couples should never have gotten married. Now, given that they have made that commitment, I think they should honor that commitment now that it exists. But they shouldn't have signed on in the first place. And I am very leery of making the wrong decision, personally. I've seen some friends just deciding to tie the knot with *somebody*, and it really hamstrings their potential. I definitely fear being trapped, as I have felt trapped in an LTR and it was just the worst, most frustrating experience of my life. So that's why I asked, "When is marriage worth it?" And you all have been responding that question beautifully.

Also, happy birthday bosky

Look for someone who has the same politics as you.
Look for someone who has the same religion as you (or lack thereof).
Look for someone who has the same family outlook as you (agree on kids and parenting).
Look for someone with the same culture/growing up experience as you (not race, I don't think that matters).
Look for someone who has similar eating habbits as you.
Look for someone who's parents are still married.

I see the importance of compatibility re: same politics, religion, and family outlook. Those are tied to core values. Re: same culture/growing up experience--I don't know, but I would feel enthusiastic to end up with someone from a different culture, so long as we shared the same core values of course. Re: race, yeah I agree race doesn't matter; I even think it's a little icky when people say they don't date ___'s. People have a right to their preferences but I don't think all preferences are right. Re: eating habits, I kinda hope it's what both people are aiming for and not what is actual. I still eat too many Pringles and Oreos but am trying to eat healthier gradually. Re: parents who are still married--yeah, I agree that statistically this makes sense, but I wouldn't want to judge someone pre-emptively for family issues that were entirely outside of their control.

[Northern Lion]

In 2005, I started what eventually became my current job, and I had two co-workers who were both lifelong bachelors.  Rick and Gene were both in their 40's, as was I at the time.  Gene had been with Nancy for 17 years, they lived together and were common-law spouses, but were not married and had no intention of ever getting married.  Gene retired a few years ago and rode off into the sunset with Nancy.  Rick and Julie had been together for a while, and three years later they were married.  Rick retired a while back, too, with Julie.  Their situations (the two couples, that is) were basically exactly the same.  They'd been together for years, lived together for years, will probably die together.  The only difference is that Rick and Julie finally decided "what the hell" and got married at 50something, and Gene and Nancy didn't.

Getting old sucks anyway, but I have to imagine that getting old alone has to suck more than getting old but having someone with you on the journey who can help you and who you can help.  I come on DTF and bitch sometimes about my wife or women or whatever, but it's all just philosophical, just discussion.

And does it really matter if you're married or just "with someone"?  No, not if it doesn't matter to you or her (or him).  But I'd still rather be with someone than alone as I get older.

I agree 100%.  I doubt many people would want to be alone when they die.  I love that I have someone I can grow old with.  And our marriage isn't perfect either, but it's pretty good.  I'm glad you shared your story because it did make for good discussion and it was really funny!

Dang, thanks for all the input, guys. Just to clarify, I think marriage and family are good things (and God-ordained). I venture to say that it's something almost all people should strive for if they want to live their fullest life (and something I do want to strive for). However, despite thinking that marriage is a good thing, I think it's equally true that some couples should never have gotten married. Now, given that they have made that commitment, I think they should honor that commitment now that it exists. But they shouldn't have signed on in the first place. And I am very leery of making the wrong decision, personally. I've seen some friends just deciding to tie the knot with *somebody*, and it really hamstrings their potential. I definitely fear being trapped, as I have felt trapped in an LTR and it was just the worst, most frustrating experience of my life. So that's why I asked, "When is marriage worth it?" And you all have been responding that question beautifully.

Also, happy birthday bosky

Look for someone who has the same politics as you.
Look for someone who has the same religion as you (or lack thereof).
Look for someone who has the same family outlook as you (agree on kids and parenting).
Look for someone with the same culture/growing up experience as you (not race, I don't think that matters).
Look for someone who has similar eating habbits as you.
Look for someone who's parents are still married.

I see the importance of compatibility re: same politics, religion, and family outlook. Those are tied to core values. Re: same culture/growing up experience--I don't know, but I would feel enthusiastic to end up with someone from a different culture, so long as we shared the same core values of course. Re: race, yeah I agree race doesn't matter; I even think it's a little icky when people say they don't date ___'s. People have a right to their preferences but I don't think all preferences are right. Re: eating habits, I kinda hope it's what both people are aiming for and not what is actual. I still eat too many Pringles and Oreos but am trying to eat healthier gradually. Re: parents who are still married--yeah, I agree that statistically this makes sense, but I wouldn't want to judge someone pre-emptively for family issues that were entirely outside of their control.

Just to clarify a little.  When I said eating habits I meant vegan vs carnivore - that sort of thing.  Also culture might be more important that you think.  I've seen a few guys who married beautiful women from other parts of the world, and even though their values were similar, because of the cultural divide, it became a HUGE strain on the relationship because of subtle things like manners, household/work expectations and so on.  A lot of stuff we take for granted because that's "just the way we grew up".  And yeah, I mentioned the "married parents" thing because of statistics, but you're right it is probably the least important item I put on my list.

But hey, happy hunting!  If you decide to go down the marriage road, I wish you all the best.  I certainly don't regret it.

[lordxizor]

Married for 13 years and honestly we're going through the roughest patch our marriage has ever seen. Yet I would still say without a doubt that marriage is worth it. I fully expect us to come.out the other side of this tough spot better than ever. I was always a marriage minded person though. I wasn't ever going to live with or have kids with someone I wasn't married to. I guess I'm old fashioned that way.

[Northern Lion]

Married for 13 years and honestly we're going through the roughest patch our marriage has ever seen. Yet I would still say without a doubt that marriage is worth it. I fully expect us to come.out the other side of this tough spot better than ever. I was always a marriage minded person though. I wasn't ever going to live with or have kids with someone I wasn't married to. I guess I'm old fashioned that way.

I hope things in your marriage get better for you soon.  It's nice to see optimism in the face of a rough time.  And I'm with you, I planned to wait to have children until after I was married as well.  I think there's something to be said about being old fashioned.

[Stadler]

The mice were vanquished some time ago, thankfully. That, and I sealed up every hole in my apartment and body with Wacky Glue.

!!
??
!!

[Stadler]

Look for someone who has the same politics as you.
Look for someone who has the same religion as you (or lack thereof).
Look for someone who has the same family outlook as you (agree on kids and parenting).
Look for someone with the same culture/growing up experience as you (not race, I don't think that matters).
Look for someone who has similar eating habbits as you.
Look for someone who's parents are still married.

I see the importance of compatibility re: same politics, religion, and family outlook. Those are tied to core values. Re: same culture/growing up experience--I don't know, but I would feel enthusiastic to end up with someone from a different culture, so long as we shared the same core values of course. Re: race, yeah I agree race doesn't matter; I even think it's a little icky when people say they don't date ___'s. People have a right to their preferences but I don't think all preferences are right. Re: eating habits, I kinda hope it's what both people are aiming for and not what is actual. I still eat too many Pringles and Oreos but am trying to eat healthier gradually. Re: parents who are still married--yeah, I agree that statistically this makes sense, but I wouldn't want to judge someone pre-emptively for family issues that were entirely outside of their control.

I politely disagree with a lot of this (both posts) and defer to something Cram said, which I read as "to each their own".  For me, it's far less about "what religion" or "what politics" than "how do you handle your religion" and "how do you handle your politics".  I don't want to marry a clone of me, no matter how good-looking, smart and erudite that might make them. .  I want a partner that will be their own person, that will have their point of view, that will respectfully and intelligently articulate it, and will likewise respect mine.   

[lordxizor]

Married for 13 years and honestly we're going through the roughest patch our marriage has ever seen. Yet I would still say without a doubt that marriage is worth it. I fully expect us to come.out the other side of this tough spot better than ever. I was always a marriage minded person though. I wasn't ever going to live with or have kids with someone I wasn't married to. I guess I'm old fashioned that way.

I hope things in your marriage get better for you soon.  It's nice to see optimism in the face of a rough time.

Thanks. I really hope it gets better soon too. I have no choice but to be optimistic. I signed up for better or for worse, so I'm not going to run when things get tough.

[Dublagent66]

Did you know that a long time ago, women used to get married in order to lose their virginity so they would be free to do as they please with other men?

I venture to say that it's something almost all people should strive for if they want to live their fullest life

Not necessarily.  It is possible to live a fullest life without being married and conversely, marriage doesn't guarantee a fullest life.

[H2]

I venture to say that it's something almost all people should strive for if they want to live their fullest life

Not necessarily.  It is possible to live a fullest life without being married and conversely, marriage doesn't guarantee a fullest life.

I accept both those premises and still maintain my position. 

Well, I guess it depends on how I interpret your first premise. I don't think that every person is such that they don't need to be married and have a family to live their fullest life. But  I venture to say that most people do need this.

[Stadler]

Don't married people, on average, live longer?

[The Walrus]

Don't married people, on average, live longer?

I refer you back to Exhibit A, my fear of collapsing at the tender age of 35 with nobody around to call the amberlamps

[H2]

I politely disagree with a lot of this (both posts) and defer to something Cram said, which I read as "to each their own".  For me, it's far less about "what religion" or "what politics" than "how do you handle your religion" and "how do you handle your politics".  I don't want to marry a clone of me, no matter how good-looking, smart and erudite that might make them. .  I want a partner that will be their own person, that will have their point of view, that will respectfully and intelligently articulate it, and will likewise respect mine.

Re: the last sentence, can't all of that be true at the same time that they share your politics and religion?

I see where you're coming from. I like people that (confidently) disagree with me, and encounters with people who disagree with you are a great opportunity for growth. However, in practice I'm not sure it makes sense to be with someone who has very different religious and political opinions from you. For instance, if you had a Protestant x Catholic couple: Catholics are required to raise their children Catholic, which is something the Protestant probably doesn't want to do. Another point, most Christians in general think that they are morally required to marry other Christians. So yeah, I do see religion as a point of conflict for most people. Now if you have two people who BOTH think it is not important to share core religious beliefs, then I think I agree that those two people might be religiously compatible. But the problem is that many people DO think it is important to share core religious beliefs with a spouse. And...they honestly SHOULD think that. Religious beliefs should inform every category of life and constitute your core values, so two people with different religions will necessarily differ in their core values and hence will be incompatible.

Re: political beliefs, I see that as a little more flexible. But still, political beliefs usually reflect core beliefs and a difference in particular political beliefs probably indicates a difference in core beliefs. For example, if I believe UBI is a bad idea and my spouse believes it's a good idea, that's not automatically a deal-breaker, but if I believe that a welfare state is a bad idea and my spouse doesn't, I think we've got a problem.

[bosk1]

Re: political beliefs, I see that as a little more flexible. But still, political beliefs usually reflect core beliefs and a difference in particular political beliefs probably indicates a difference in core beliefs. For example, if I believe UBI is a bad idea and my spouse believes it's a good idea, that's not automatically a deal-breaker, but if I believe that a welfare state is a bad idea and my spouse doesn't, I think we've got a problem.

I think your distinction between political beliefs and core beliefs, and the relationship between those, is a great point.  I think what it boils down to is just making sure core beliefs are in line.  Really, making sure you are "compatible" with a potential mate should stem from just having open, honest discussions about those core beliefs.  They may or may not be political, religious, etc.  It just depends on what is truly important to each person.  There are plenty of couples out that there, for example, are diametrically opposed to one another on a variety of political issues, and yet have spectacularly successful marriages because those issues are not really "core beliefs" for them.  Sometimes, in having those open, honest conversations, and the (hopefully) give-and-take that should naturally ensue, each person also unintentionally embarks on some self-discovery and learns that things he or she initially thought to be "core beliefs" aren't really deal breakers either, or that there are acceptable compromises.

[Stadler]

I politely disagree with a lot of this (both posts) and defer to something Cram said, which I read as "to each their own".  For me, it's far less about "what religion" or "what politics" than "how do you handle your religion" and "how do you handle your politics".  I don't want to marry a clone of me, no matter how good-looking, smart and erudite that might make them. .  I want a partner that will be their own person, that will have their point of view, that will respectfully and intelligently articulate it, and will likewise respect mine.

Re: the last sentence, can't all of that be true at the same time that they share your politics and religion?

I see where you're coming from. I like people that (confidently) disagree with me, and encounters with people who disagree with you are a great opportunity for growth. However, in practice I'm not sure it makes sense to be with someone who has very different religious and political opinions from you. For instance, if you had a Protestant x Catholic couple: Catholics are required to raise their children Catholic, which is something the Protestant probably doesn't want to do. Another point, most Christians in general think that they are morally required to marry other Christians. So yeah, I do see religion as a point of conflict for most people. Now if you have two people who BOTH think it is not important to share core religious beliefs, then I think I agree that those two people might be religiously compatible. But the problem is that many people DO think it is important to share core religious beliefs with a spouse. And...they honestly SHOULD think that. Religious beliefs should inform every category of life and constitute your core values, so two people with different religions will necessarily differ in their core values and hence will be incompatible.

Re: political beliefs, I see that as a little more flexible. But still, political beliefs usually reflect core beliefs and a difference in particular political beliefs probably indicates a difference in core beliefs. For example, if I believe UBI is a bad idea and my spouse believes it's a good idea, that's not automatically a deal-breaker, but if I believe that a welfare state is a bad idea and my spouse doesn't, I think we've got a problem.

But it goes back to what Cram said: what works for you?   I'm nominally Catholic, but I do not have even one evangelical (that is, a desire to convert others); if that's your thing, so be it, pick your mate accordingly.   There's a show on Lifetime where the Pastor from Married At First Sight has 90 days to get two people who have an issue like this to reconcile (so far, what little I've seen, it's dealing with a racist in-law: "I want my grandkids to look like ME!").

I guess I'm different here.  I'm not - insert your word: offended, scared, challenged, whatever - about opinions that are different than me, even ones that seem "core".   I say this a lot in P/R and I don't get the sense that people really believe me, but I do value and respect opinions that are different than mine.  I don't agree with Obamacare, but I don't think people that do are "lesser", or "stupid" or "morally bankrupt".  I have plenty of friends that I like, trust, and value that do not share my political or religious beliefs.   

[bosk1]

I guess I'm different here.  I'm not - insert your word: offended, scared, challenged, whatever - about opinions that are different than me, even ones that seem "core".   

And mature people shouldn't be.  Reasonable people should be willing and able to civilly discuss those areas where we disagree, and possibly even grow closer together from those discussions, even if by the end, there is NO common ground to be found.  And I know you are of the sort that agrees with that sentiment. 

But that said, as relevant to this particular discussion, that doesn't mean it is wise or beneficial to choose a mate that you fundamentally disagree with on whatever those "core" issues are.  It is a different type of relationship, and while there are always things that will come up that will put strain on the relationship, I think it is very unwise to needlessly go into a relationship like that with something built-in that is going to perpetually cause strain.

[hefdaddy42]

I would tend to agree.