DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Kotowboy]

Seeing that Mangini is so proficient and how he plays for the time signature and overthinks every measure etc etc...

And how people were saying his live outro to Finally Free was lacking...

I kinda wonder if Mangini even knows how to Improvise...

You hear that story often that the best orchestras in the world can only read music. If you ask them to make something up they're clueless.




Not saying he CANNOT improvise. But i wonder how much time he's spent over the years being as mathematical and ambidextrous and technical as he is..

versus just putting on a CD and jamming along..

[Max Kuehnau]

Seeing that Mangini is so proficient and how he plays for the time signature and overthinks every measure etc etc...

And how people were saying his live outro to Finally Free was lacking...

I kinda wonder if Mangini even knows how to Improvise...

You hear that story often that the best orchestras in the world can only read music. If you ask them to make something up they're clueless.




Not saying he CANNOT improvise. But i wonder how much time he's spent over the years being as mathematical and ambidextrous and technical as he is..

versus just putting on a CD and jamming along..

well, given that his instructional DVD (called The Grid, which I highly recommend btw) is mainly about the very subject of improvisation, I'd guess he is very much able to improvise

[Kotowboy]

Suuuuure you can prove anything with instructional DVDs..   

[Ben_Jamin]

Maybe that IS HOW Mangini improvises.

I believe I've said it before, but Mangini is not your average drummer.

[Kotowboy]

That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".


Like his version of just laying back and enjoying the groove *IS* to think of how many ways he can play the same time signature.

[goo-goo]

That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".

Not really. You still have to make the improvisation work (And feel). Saw the Mars Volta many moons ago and they were "improvising". Sounded like shit, no coherency, just a bunch of noise. King Crimson does a lot of improvs and they feel fine most of them anyway. I think Mangini would fit in a band like KC as well. All the players are very well versed in music theory and they make it work flawlessly most of the times.

I did watch The Grid DVD. I'm no drummer but it was fascinating how he improvises.

[Peace and Love]

Seeing that Mangini is so proficient and how he plays for the time signature and overthinks every measure etc etc...

And how people were saying his live outro to Finally Free was lacking...

I kinda wonder if Mangini even knows how to Improvise...

You hear that story often that the best orchestras in the world can only read music. If you ask them to make something up they're clueless.




Not saying he CANNOT improvise. But i wonder how much time he's spent over the years being as mathematical and ambidextrous and technical as he is..

versus just putting on a CD and jamming along..

I think watching Mike Mangini's jam during his DT audition alone is enough to completely disprove this argument. How can anybody watch that and think that he overthinks every measure  and "plays for the time signature"? What a completely ridiculous statement.

[bosk1]

The question of whether he can effectively improvise is valid and interesting.  But from what (relatively) little I've seen, I don't think Mangini is lacking in that department.  To give just one example, the band were VERY happy with his abilities during the improv/jam portion of the auditions.*  And given that that is how they "write" a lot of their material, and that they were specifically looking for someone who could fit that mold, I don't think that's an issue.


*Interesting that this would come up right now, given that I was just thinking about this in a completely different context recently.  I will be interested to see whether others eventually see the same tie-in that prompted my thinking.

[Kyo]

Seeing that Mangini is so proficient and how he plays for the time signature and overthinks every measure etc etc...

I kinda wonder if Mangini even knows how to Improvise...

As someone who has actually jammed with Mike Mangini, I find this idea completely silly.

[Peace and Love]

Seeing that Mangini is so proficient and how he plays for the time signature and overthinks every measure etc etc...

I kinda wonder if Mangini even knows how to Improvise...

As someone who has actually jammed with Mike Mangini, I find this idea completely silly.

Just the statement "plays for the time signature" is absurd. Let alone the rest of the post.

For some people John Petrucci himself saying MM is a feel monster and and has authentic feel in every style of music is not enough to overcome whatever silly prejudice they have. Given that DT writes all their music through improvisation, you'd think that JP knows what he is talking about.

[Lonk]

As someone who has actually jammed with Mike Mangini, I find this idea completely silly.

Please tell us more! Interested to hear about big musician playing on a more casual setting.

Regarding Improvisation, I think it's just a matter of him being so technical that some of his improvisation might come off as...well, technical 

https://youtu.be/xxS_63IuK_E?t=101

[devieira73]

Well, about Mangini (and Dream Theater) improvising - from 07:45 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
Yes, I think he can do that!

[jayvee3]

The stuff in recent albums is lazy? No. They are just more ficused on writing a good song, instead of letting their musical virtuosity carry the song. At Wit's End's arrangement is lazy? S2N? Barstool Warrior? And don't even get me started on the highly complex The Astonishing album. To call the recent arrangements lazy is an insult to the band.

I didn't specify any songs, and you happened to list the better songs from the Mangini era.

The Enemy Inside is my go-to song for this argument. JP's riffing is elementary, and the main melody played by JP and JR, feels like an unfinished part, same with some of the diminished chord part with its changing time signatures, just feels like it was pasted together and not given time to marinate.

Nah - you could easily make this argument for many other songs such as "The Root of all Evil", which, while I understand was a part of the AA saga thing, was just basically a rehash of riffs we'd already heard in the Glass Prison and This Dying Soul, and is pretty second rate to either.

In fact, it got to the point by that stage where I felt the whole AA saga was getting a bit stale and wished it was just kind of done. And to this day, I have very little interest in listening to it as a whole suite. TDS, TROAE and Repentance could literally have their time cut in half (repentance could be cut to 2 minutes, it just doesn't interest me). And I think this is where I feel the writing was not so much lazy, but just stale. The Mangini-era has been a complete breath of fresh air to me in comparison to this time period...

I think that's a bad example, because as you stated, TROAE is part of the Twelve Step Saga, and reprises riffs and melodies from previous songs. You must hate long epics that do the same thing, too.

Another example of either laziness or lack of ideas, is on LTE3, if it isn't call backs to the first two LTE albums, many of the sounds seem to be ripped straight off the Systematic Chaos album. The last tune on LTE3 is a bit different sounding, but the main theme sounds unfinished.

To the bolded part: not at all. I love long epics if they are good. I love recurring themes. Scenes is my favorite album and is built off Metropolis part 1. I enjoy the Astonishing which has this in spades. And I love Awake with the recurring themes through a Mind Beside Itself, as well as the Mirror/Lie tie-ins to Space Dye Vest.

The truth is, I should enjoy TROAE and the 12-step suite. I should get excited to hear those riffs and themes return. But I just don't find it executed that well other than "The Glass Prison". It feels like so many sections in that suite of songs are overblown and overlong, with the recurring riffs being an afterthought. It's not done in inventive ways, such as some of the work on Scenes, or how the main riff in the mirror is a sped up version of the Space Dye Vest main theme. I truly got to the point where after a while I couldn't wait for Black Clouds to come out and for it to be wrapped up.

Another example from Octavarium is Never Enough - another one that just to me lacks any real oomph, and the Muse similarities aside, feels pasted together and pretty clunky to me. But its all good brother - liking different elements of DT is exactly what makes the band so great and diverse 

[jonny108]

This is what I've got for Sleeping Giant lyrics so far, quite a few gaps as it's much harder to read than the other two so probably not totally accurate either. SPOILERS

Some will be driven by conflict
Others will fight the good fight
Some will rely on the darkness
Some will rely on the light

____ with compassion
_____ for knowledge and peace
_______ through aggression
And ____ ____ ___ ___ _____

Shadows disappear at night
Buried out of sight
Driven underground

Hidden lies the rage inside
Like a ticking bomb
That doesn't make a sound

People will ______
____ suffering and ________
Questioning their own desires

______ _____ __________
Speaking as possessed
__ __ ____ ____ _______ ______

_____ ___ ___ ____ _______ _____
_____ of our lives
See through the cracks of time

But the raging _ below
Will never go away
If it is not ________

Shadows disappear at night
Buried out of sight
Driven underground

Hidden lies the rage inside
Like a ticking bomb
That doesn't make a sound

Shadows disappear at night
Harmless as a dove
Clever like a snake

Hidden lies the rage inside
Like a sleeping giant
One we must not wake

Standing under the ______
Are we ____ and ______
Or _______ in the glow?

Our desires and ______
And the need to believe there is good in this world
___ the common thread

[bosk1]

Can you NOT use the tiny font?  There's no reason for it in a thread that is obviously going to contain spoilers.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Well, about Mangini (and Dream Theater) improvising - from 07:45 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
Yes, I think he can do that!

I was just going to say...wasn't a group jam a key part of the audition process, which he aced? I don't think there's any real doubt about his ability to improvise with the band.

I think the key complaint (which admittedly I don't understand given the band is Dream Theater and their material  has been highly technical by nature) has been that his playing is a little too mechanical at times. I don't share that complaint at all and think he fits into the band like a glove. I guess some fans love highly technical guitar, bass and keys, but when it comes to drums they want less technicality and more simplicity 

[Enigmachine]

The notion of modern DT being "simpler and less inspired" feels a tad absurd to me. The arrangements of the last 10 years imo feel far more dense, deliberate and dynamic than most of the albums prior, to me. Is ADToE or DT12 simpler than Octavarium or Train of Thought? Despite an abundance of shredding in the latter, I don't really think so. Plus, it's not like every song was a blast of wild prog in the 90s either. You had ambitious stuff like Metropolis, The Killing Hand, A Change of Seasons etc. but also relatively "lazy" stuff like Pull Me Under, Afterlife, Caught in a Web and Burning My Soul. Not really any different to what we have today, with there being both stuff like Breaking All Illusions, Illumination Theory, At Wit's End and Pale Blue Dot alongside more straightforward songs like Paralyzed, The Enemy Inside (which I also think is more creative than it's been made out to be, I don't personally think "elementary" would describe it any more than it would for As I Am, The Mirror, Caught in a Web or Pull Me Under... which I also like) and Untethered Angel (which I'd say the same for).

It's not like TA is a simple song either. Three solo sections (counting the middle guitar + keys as one), a different final chorus, unusually angular melodies, an altered second verse, odd time signatures all over the place, MM going wild with all the syncopation and complementary rhythms, subtle usage of altered motifs... it's arguably as prog as it gets (and for me, in a tight and cohesive package that feels thematically appropriate to the lyrical content). Whether MP could do something similar is I guess beside the point, but I'd still go with a relatively confident no, despite my respect for him as a drummer. Even when MP did go technical, it seems (judging from what others have said, I'm no drummer) that he was locked in to a particular feel, while MM might have various layers of rhythmic activity. Not to say that MP hasn't done polyrhythms and stuff before, but on the level of something like Illumination Theory? I don't know.

As for "less inspired", that's one of those phrases that feels like it should be struck from discussions around art to me. I get "boring", because tastes will be tastes and what satisfies one person could leave the other thoroughly bored. The matter of assuming an artist is inspired is contextual guesswork. I feel like it's invalid because there are plenty of examples where a band has actually struggled with ideas and really forced their material out, but all for an album that ended up actually being pretty well received. The reverse has also frequently happened. Maybe it's just me, but I think the matter of inspiration should only matter to the person working on it. It's always felt like a rather brazen assumption to make that someone was uninspired imo, because it just feels like someone projecting their personal dislike of something as a character fault on the person who created it. Needless to say, I feel the same way about using "lazy" as a criticism.

The question of whether he can effectively improvise is valid and interesting.  But from what (relatively) little I've seen, I don't think Mangini is lacking in that department.  To give just one example, the band were VERY happy with his abilities during the improv/jam portion of the auditions.*  And given that that is how they "write" a lot of their material, and that they were specifically looking for someone who could fit that mold, I don't think that's an issue.

This for sure. I think some of the later LTE improvs are pretty solid, but Take This for the Pain is probably the most interesting sounding piece of wholly improvised material I've ever heard. I also vastly prefer his interpretation of Finally Free's outro over MP's, which in comparison just sorta feels like a wall of percussive sound (not that there isn't value to that), rather than the interesting ways that MM plays with the beat for dramatic effect. It's maybe less that he "plays for the time signature" and that he's just naturally drawn towards angular, technical beats when coming up with stuff on the spot, which I think is perfectly fine and certainly befitting of the kind of band that DT are.

[Mr.Mister]

I think MM feels and understands music differently given how good he is - I felt the passion and intent in every beat he did on the "Take This For The Pain" jam (one of my all time DT pieces btw). Same with the last section of FF in the last tour. Watching the live album you can see the guy is playing from the heart - and yes, it can still be highly calculated and from the heart IMO. I mean that's basically JP's entire career if you think about it. 

I think some people in general confuse MM passion for contextualizing and explaining drumming for inability to improvise or "lack of feel". Make no mistake, if you play this type of music you are going through a similar thought process of complex time signatures, etc.

You also have to take into account MM is a professor, and a good one from what I hear. That mindset doesn't go away. I imagine he can listen to Ringo Starr and still find a way to contextualize each beat.

[ZirconBlue]

All this "thinks too much, doesn't play with feel" stuff sounds like some weird anti-intellectual BS to me.    As does the focus on improvisation.  Have you ever been really moved by a piece of symphonic music?  There's little to no improvisation there. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Improvisation is fun, as it's playing music with no real structure, or idea of where it's going to go.

Improvisation doesn't mean much to me in terms of skill, although having that technical knowledge does improve the skill to be able to pick a tool and idea to shift the improv into an entirely unexpected area.

I do not enjoy most improvisation music though. I'd rather have it be structured, and leave the improv/jams for the live show, I also don't mind live jams either as it showcases those skills they have.

Which is why I enjoy Manginis drums at the end of Finally Free on Distant Memories, which is in good fun for the band and for fun for him to seriously mess with the guys and throw them off, yet is still in time. He showcases how he can utilize that polyrhythm and instantly shift the song in a way that's more fun for him and for the band.

[Peter Mc]

Curiously, I don't know what I even want from a new DT album. My fave period was Scenes - Octavarium.

But A Dramatic Turn onwards were just...The Latest Dream Theater album to me...

What actually is it about the 1999-2005 period I love so much ?

it's an interesting question.


...I guess I just put "great songs" over anything else. I'm the weirdo that loves I Walk Beside You and This Is The Life. I haven't really enjoyed a mega-song since The Count.

But i'm optimistic about A View...

Probably because the 1999-2006 period was when DT were at the top of their game, physically, mentally, musically. They had grown to be arguably the biggest underground band in the world. They peaked during Octavarium and Score and they knew it. Overall, it's really 92-06 that is the golden era of DT, they just didn't have any real disruptions from 99-06, and really until 2010. The last couple of albums with Portnoy are definitely a band unsure of where to go next, despite increasing the metal element in their music being the dominant element in their music, which is ongoing, the albums started to sound a bit formulaic. Then after MP's departure it seems the band has been content with just rehashing old material and rearranging things, and I even think some stuff on recent albums is just lazy (by DT standards) especially in song construction. Say what you want about Portnoy, while his drums in many ways defined the classic DT sound, he is also a master arranger, especially when surrounded by talented musicians like DT, Transatlantic or NMB. It's an issue I have with modern DT, because that element is missing, and when taking JP's solo albums into account, JP is not the best composer out there. He comes up with many great ideas, but putting them together without MP it is obvious why DT cannot sound like they did in the 90s or 2000s. MP had the vision that only the best bands have.

A master arranger?  Have you actually been in the studio to see what it is that he actually contributes?

Seems to me that, by your logic, all the great songs by DT/TA/NM are due to Portnoy's masterful arrangements but the lacklustre material he's put out in other bands is not his fault as the talent is not there.  You give him so much of the credit for the good stuff but none of the bad stuff is his fault?  You can't have it both ways. 

The simple fact is that MP is a drummer and his stuff with talented players sounds good because he's playing with talented players and writers.  His stuff with less talented players sounds bad because they're not great songwriters.  He is not the reason the good bands sound good or the lesser bands don't, he's just the drummer in good and not so good projects.

DT have not fallen apart without his masterful arranging skills, they've moved on and barely missed a beat (pardon the pun, if that is a pun) putting out high quality album after high quality album.  Are they the absolute pinnacle albums of their career? I'd say no but none of the MP albums after SFAM are either imo.  That stretch from SDOIT to BC&SL are my least favourite DT albums and things picked up when Mangini joined.  Likewise, if Neal Morse switched drummers tomorrow, it would likely have very little impact on how his albums will sound.  The Spock's Beard albums sound just fine with a different drummer.

What's abundantly clear to me on these BTS making of album videos is just how little he contributes to the writing of those records.  The others all turn up with loads of demos and ideas and he turns up with zero.

[Dedalus]

Well, about Mangini (and Dream Theater) improvising - from 07:45 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
Yes, I think he can do that!

I was just going to say...wasn't a group jam a key part of the audition process, which he aced? I don't think there's any real doubt about his ability to improvise with the band.

I think the key complaint (which admittedly I don't understand given the band is Dream Theater and their material  has been highly technical by nature) has been that his playing is a little too mechanical at times. I don't share that complaint at all and think he fits into the band like a glove. I guess some fans love highly technical guitar, bass and keys, but when it comes to drums they want less technicality and more simplicity 

The reason is that MP is less technical than MM. So this is used as an argument.

It's okay that JR is ultra-technical, after all he didn't replace MP. 

[Dedalus]

Curiously, I don't know what I even want from a new DT album. My fave period was Scenes - Octavarium.

But A Dramatic Turn onwards were just...The Latest Dream Theater album to me...

What actually is it about the 1999-2005 period I love so much ?

it's an interesting question.


...I guess I just put "great songs" over anything else. I'm the weirdo that loves I Walk Beside You and This Is The Life. I haven't really enjoyed a mega-song since The Count.

But i'm optimistic about A View...

Probably because the 1999-2006 period was when DT were at the top of their game, physically, mentally, musically. They had grown to be arguably the biggest underground band in the world. They peaked during Octavarium and Score and they knew it. Overall, it's really 92-06 that is the golden era of DT, they just didn't have any real disruptions from 99-06, and really until 2010. The last couple of albums with Portnoy are definitely a band unsure of where to go next, despite increasing the metal element in their music being the dominant element in their music, which is ongoing, the albums started to sound a bit formulaic. Then after MP's departure it seems the band has been content with just rehashing old material and rearranging things, and I even think some stuff on recent albums is just lazy (by DT standards) especially in song construction. Say what you want about Portnoy, while his drums in many ways defined the classic DT sound, he is also a master arranger, especially when surrounded by talented musicians like DT, Transatlantic or NMB. It's an issue I have with modern DT, because that element is missing, and when taking JP's solo albums into account, JP is not the best composer out there. He comes up with many great ideas, but putting them together without MP it is obvious why DT cannot sound like they did in the 90s or 2000s. MP had the vision that only the best bands have.

A master arranger?  Have you actually been in the studio to see what it is that he actually contributes?

Seems to me that, by your logic, all the great songs by DT/TA/NM are due to Portnoy's masterful arrangements but the lacklustre material he's put out in other bands is not his fault as the talent is not there.  You give him so much of the credit for the good stuff but none of the bad stuff is his fault?  You can't have it both ways. 

The simple fact is that MP is a drummer and his stuff with talented players sounds good because he's playing with talented players and writers.  His stuff with less talented players sounds bad because they're not great songwriters.  He is not the reason the good bands sound good or the lesser bands don't, he's just the drummer in good and not so good projects.

DT have not fallen apart without his masterful arranging skills, they've moved on and barely missed a beat (pardon the pun, if that is a pun) putting out high quality album after high quality album.  Are they the absolute pinnacle albums of their career? I'd say no but none of the MP albums after SFAM are either imo.  That stretch from SDOIT to BC&SL are my least favourite DT albums and things picked up when Mangini joined.  Likewise, if Neal Morse switched drummers tomorrow, it would likely have very little impact on how his albums will sound.  The Spock's Beard albums sound just fine with a different drummer.

What's abundantly clear to me on these BTS making of album videos is just how little he contributes to the writing of those records.  The others all turn up with loads of demos and ideas and he turns up with zero.

Judging by the making of (DT, NM, NMB etc), he contributes in the same way as Lars Ulrich contributes to Metallica.

In my book this is not composing and it is not arranging. He acts as a producer (and Lars too). It's certainly a very valuable contribution, but Martin Birch doesn't have writing credits with Iron Maiden, even though he helped in the production of the records.

Obviously I'm not talking about contributing as a lyricist.

[Ben_Jamin]

Curiously, I don't know what I even want from a new DT album. My fave period was Scenes - Octavarium.

But A Dramatic Turn onwards were just...The Latest Dream Theater album to me...

What actually is it about the 1999-2005 period I love so much ?

it's an interesting question.


...I guess I just put "great songs" over anything else. I'm the weirdo that loves I Walk Beside You and This Is The Life. I haven't really enjoyed a mega-song since The Count.

But i'm optimistic about A View...

Probably because the 1999-2006 period was when DT were at the top of their game, physically, mentally, musically. They had grown to be arguably the biggest underground band in the world. They peaked during Octavarium and Score and they knew it. Overall, it's really 92-06 that is the golden era of DT, they just didn't have any real disruptions from 99-06, and really until 2010. The last couple of albums with Portnoy are definitely a band unsure of where to go next, despite increasing the metal element in their music being the dominant element in their music, which is ongoing, the albums started to sound a bit formulaic. Then after MP's departure it seems the band has been content with just rehashing old material and rearranging things, and I even think some stuff on recent albums is just lazy (by DT standards) especially in song construction. Say what you want about Portnoy, while his drums in many ways defined the classic DT sound, he is also a master arranger, especially when surrounded by talented musicians like DT, Transatlantic or NMB. It's an issue I have with modern DT, because that element is missing, and when taking JP's solo albums into account, JP is not the best composer out there. He comes up with many great ideas, but putting them together without MP it is obvious why DT cannot sound like they did in the 90s or 2000s. MP had the vision that only the best bands have.

A master arranger?  Have you actually been in the studio to see what it is that he actually contributes?

Seems to me that, by your logic, all the great songs by DT/TA/NM are due to Portnoy's masterful arrangements but the lacklustre material he's put out in other bands is not his fault as the talent is not there.  You give him so much of the credit for the good stuff but none of the bad stuff is his fault?  You can't have it both ways. 

The simple fact is that MP is a drummer and his stuff with talented players sounds good because he's playing with talented players and writers.  His stuff with less talented players sounds bad because they're not great songwriters.  He is not the reason the good bands sound good or the lesser bands don't, he's just the drummer in good and not so good projects.

DT have not fallen apart without his masterful arranging skills, they've moved on and barely missed a beat (pardon the pun, if that is a pun) putting out high quality album after high quality album.  Are they the absolute pinnacle albums of their career? I'd say no but none of the MP albums after SFAM are either imo.  That stretch from SDOIT to BC&SL are my least favourite DT albums and things picked up when Mangini joined.  Likewise, if Neal Morse switched drummers tomorrow, it would likely have very little impact on how his albums will sound.  The Spock's Beard albums sound just fine with a different drummer.

What's abundantly clear to me on these BTS making of album videos is just how little he contributes to the writing of those records.  The others all turn up with loads of demos and ideas and he turns up with zero.

Judging by the making of (DT, NM, NMB etc), he contributes in the same way as Lars Ulrich contributes to Metallica.

In my book this is not composing and it is not arranging. He acts as a producer (and Lars too). It's certainly a very valuable contribution, but Martin Birch doesn't have writing credits with Iron Maiden, even though he helped in the production of the records.

Obviously I'm not talking about contributing as a lyricist.

Being a producer also means discussing and considering arrangements of the songs to make them sound better. The record label brought in Desmond Child as producer to arrange You or Me, into the more accessible You Not Me.

Based off the Behind The Scenes we got, Mike Portnoy was in charge of arranging, vocal production, and direction. And MP is good these things. As his other projects indicate. 

[Dedalus]

Being a producer also means discussing and considering arrangements of the songs to make them sound better. The record label brought in Desmond Child as producer to arrange You or Me, into the more accessible You Not Me.

Based off the Behind The Scenes we got, Mike Portnoy was in charge of arranging, vocal production, and direction. And MP is good these things. As his other projects indicate.

Totally agree. But "discussing and considering arrangements of the songs to make them sound better" is not the same thing as arranging.

[Dedalus]

And just to be clear, let's use Empire of the Clouds as an example.

Songwriter: Bruce Dickinson
Producers: Kevin Shirley / Steve Harris
Orchestration (or orchestral arrangements): Jeff Bova

These are different things.

[bosk1]

Based off the Behind The Scenes we got, Mike Portnoy was in charge of arranging, vocal production, and direction.

Wait, WHAT?  That is absolutely false.  He was very active in those areas.  But he was not, by any stretch, "in charge" of them.

[Ben_Jamin]

Based off the Behind The Scenes we got, Mike Portnoy was in charge of arranging, vocal production, and direction.

Wait, WHAT?  That is absolutely false.  He was very active in those areas.  But he was not, by any stretch, "in charge" of them.

"in charge" apparently is the wrong choice of words to have used.

I would say then...."more vocal" about how he wanted things to be.

[Kilgore Trout]

The notion of modern DT being "simpler and less inspired" feels a tad absurd to me. The arrangements of the last 10 years imo feel far more dense, deliberate and dynamic than most of the albums prior, to me. Is ADToE or DT12 simpler than Octavarium or Train of Thought? Despite an abundance of shredding in the latter, I don't really think so.

You know what? You're right: DT have been producing mediocre and uninspired music for 20 years now. The discussion is closed.

[Dedalus]

The notion of modern DT being "simpler and less inspired" feels a tad absurd to me. The arrangements of the last 10 years imo feel far more dense, deliberate and dynamic than most of the albums prior, to me. Is ADToE or DT12 simpler than Octavarium or Train of Thought? Despite an abundance of shredding in the latter, I don't really think so.

You know what? You're right: DT have been producing mediocre and uninspired music for 20 years now. The discussion is closed.

Yeah, DT sucks

[Enigmachine]

The notion of modern DT being "simpler and less inspired" feels a tad absurd to me. The arrangements of the last 10 years imo feel far more dense, deliberate and dynamic than most of the albums prior, to me. Is ADToE or DT12 simpler than Octavarium or Train of Thought? Despite an abundance of shredding in the latter, I don't really think so.

You know what? You're right: DT have been producing mediocre and uninspired music for 20 years now. The discussion is closed.

Well for one, I think you might be in the wrong place with that kind of rhetoric. Also, that wasn't really what I was talking about there. If we're just talking matters of complexity, that can be measured to some degree and I'd say that TA or ADToE are, on balance, more intricately composed than anything from the 90s as well. Inspiration is a different question, merely because that's just so volatile to subjective judgement, even beyond the unnecessary projection. If the band suddenly came out saying "yeah, we were really scraping the bottom of the barrel" for Images, Awake and Scenes, would that make them worse albums? It would technically make them "uninspired", but that wouldn't change the effect that they've had on people. Likewise, I don't care if something like DT12 gets called uninspired, because there's nothing tangible in that criticism and it takes nothing away from the many things I enjoy about it.

[jonny108]

Can you NOT use the tiny font?  There's no reason for it in a thread that is obviously going to contain spoilers.

Yeah no worries, didn't know this was a spoiler thread.  Presumed people might be coming here just for news. In any case how accurate is it? 

[Kotowboy]

« Last Edit: 07-09-2021, 23:46:25 by Kotowboy »

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Is anyone able to share if there will be another single this month?

[jonny108]

Is anyone able to share if there will be another single this month?

Next Friday hopefully, likely Invisible Monster.