Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

[MirrorMask]

Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing "you can eat ass and balls" in the chorus? That was....interesting.

There's a version of As I Am like that as well.

Happened at a show of mine once as well 

[bosk1]

I think saying "we couldn't afford someone of the calibre of the amazing Mike Portnoy" is perhaps them being kind and diplomatic rather than saying "we didn't want Mike Portnoy."

That was pretty much how I always took it.  I don't think they meant that they literally could not "afford" him.  But that being said, that doesn't mean that finances weren't a part of the decision.  There are a lot of things that could have weighed in on the financial side of things.  Yes, they were a bigger band than DT.  They sold more albums than DT were selling, could book more tour dates, and could play bigger venues.  That all means more money coming into the band than DT would gross during an album/tour cycle.  But I am careful to use the word gross.  We don't know what the net would be, per member.  Bigger label means bigger label cut.  Bigger stage production means a LOT more expense that comes off the top before members see a dime from touring (remember--when a band plays a tour date, it's not like they get "X dollars per ticket sold"--they get paid a negotiated flat fee that takes into account a LOT of money coming right off the top that the band never even sees).  And as far as just being "the drummer," I obviously don't know how A7X has structured its member contracts, but it would not surprise me if the drummer they brought in is a full member, but perhaps does not have a salary bonus schedule that is equal to the other members of the band.  In other words, the drummer probably gets paid less than M. Shadows, Synyster Gates, and Zacky Vengeance (who are all founding members).  And in terms of writing credits, a lot of drummers in a lot of bands typically aren't considered primary songwriters for most songs, and thus do not get songwriting royalties.  It would not surprise me that they were looking for someone who would not come in and take a cut of that, which likely would not have been the case with MP.  But in any case, even if I am off on some of the specifics, which I undoubtedly am, the general point is that I am pretty confident they could have found a way to make it work financially and still have everyone make a lot of money, but it wasn't really the financial model they were looking for to have a big name drummer/songwriter step in.

[darkshade]

I think MP was seeking that camaraderie that he was feeling with Transatlantic and Avenged Sevenfold at the time, that he wasn't feeling with DT at the time, but used to. I don't know how popular A7F was/is outside of the US, but DT are/were pretty popular outside the US when Portnoy was in the band so I can't imagine it was all about the money. Sure, A7F had a few hits on US radio, unlike DT, but radio was already on its way out as a place to hear the newest biggest rock hits in the late 2000s. The public image was that JP/JR/MP was the core and they had the camaraderie, but JM was the quiet guy, and there seemed to be some rift between MP and JLB, the lead singer. That's not a great situation to return to after recording and touring with TA and A7F, having a blast, everyone getting along, etc...

Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

[Kotowboy]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

Ah that'll be why they only have one song over 13 minutes since Portnoy left.

[darkshade]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

Ah that'll be why they only have one song over 13 minutes since Portnoy left.

I think some tracks on DoT could have benefited from being fleshed out more, particularly AWE and PBD.

[gzarruk]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah if anything Distance Over Time is their most straightforward album in a long time.

Also Octavarium was not very proggy and technical until maybe the last two songs ?

[darkshade]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.

The slower sections/songs seem disingenuous, and seem to rarely flow well from more complex sections. Songs like Illumination Theory are the biggest culprits, or shorter ones like Barstool Warrior. If it's a ballad type, that might be the one thing they seem to do well in the modern era. I like This Is The Life, and Out of Reach, but way too much of it on TA to the point of boredom.

[Dedalus]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.

Yeah... MP left and they are now a bunch of nerds with no soul. 

[hefdaddy42]

Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT. 

If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.

[gzarruk]

Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT. 

If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.

This. This. This.

[Revenge319]

Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT. 

If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.

The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions. But a song being very technical doesn't bother me in any way, especially because I love the songs that I just listed.

[Setlist Scotty]

The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.

I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.

[hefdaddy42]

The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.

I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.

I agree with this.

S2N has some hinky shit in it as well.  But the "Whoa" kind of disqualifies it.

[Peter Mc]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

No offence! 

[Revenge319]

The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.

I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.

I wouldn't say Illumination Theory. The instrumental section in The Pursuit of Truth is rather technical, sure, but I don't think I could say that about the rest of the song.

[nikatapi]

Well the absence of MP is felt from a producer standpoint, with the good and bad that comes with it.
I think sometimes MP would insist on revisiting riffs or sections in a song, ultimately making the songs longer (like ANTR), but also seemed to have a great sense of progginess and epicness in terms of making decisions like this cohesive, and using clever ways to utilize ideas in a song. This is still done, but to a lesser degree.

On the other hand, JP now steers the ship, and i think he has a soft spot for some cheesy elements, which i feel all over the last few albums (more than in the past). Also he tends to not reuse riffs and ideas a lot, so you get more condensed songs but packed with lots of different ideas.

What i think is a key element in the sound that has made some people dislike MM (apart from fanboyism) is his different sense of rhythm, tight hi-hat sounds and playing, and also his much more sparse usage of the crash cymbals compared to MP. That can be felt also in the live versions of older songs (if you listen to ITPOE on the new live album once it comes out you'll get what i'm saying).

Technicality is definitely there, might be more subdued or not as "in your face", but we've had some crazy stuff in the past albums. The funny thing is that MM's playing and interpretation of rhythm at points sounds simple, but is complex as hell to pull off. And that speaks volumes about his talent.

[Kotowboy]

The only thing missing without Portnoy is the clarity of the production.

It was very noticeable on A Dramatic Turn Of Events. You have to wonder - how did Petrucci not remember what he did the last 6 times ?!

Almost every album from Scenes until and including Octavarium sounded mostly great.

Dream Theater was a little better but was marred by that awful snare sound.

The Astonishing was a huge step up for me ** - and Distance Over Time could have been from the golden era ( Scenes - Octavarium ) sonically - just a little hotter is all.

Come to think of it - the only way i'd want Portnoy back in the DT camp is as co-producer - and that's it.






** The first time I heard The Gift Of Music - I remember thinking it sounded like it had come straight off Six Degrees - like About To Crash.

[nikatapi]

The only thing missing without Portnoy is the clarity of the production.

It was very noticeable on A Dramatic Turn Of Events. You have to wonder - how did Petrucci not remember what he did the last 6 times ?!

Almost every album from Scenes until and including Octavarium sounded mostly great.

Dream Theater was a little better but was marred by that awful snare sound.

The Astonishing was a huge step up for me ** - and Distance Over Time could have been from the golden era ( Scenes - Octavarium ) sonically - just a little hotter is all.

Come to think of it - the only way i'd want Portnoy back in the DT camp is as co-producer - and that's it.






** The first time I heard The Gift Of Music - I remember thinking it sounded like it had come straight off Six Degrees - like About To Crash.

Well, co-producer doesn't mean only sonic decisions. And we have to give credit to MP for having a consistently good drum and cymbal sound, on pretty much all the records he's been involved in. While MM i feel only after Breaking The 4th Wall has been sounding good, the only other album i find his sound good is Elements Of Persuasion. Distance over Time (and the new live album) seem to be moving in a good direction on that front.

[don_waka]

I totally get you, OP.
I grew apart from DT ever since TOT came out. Not that I didn't like it; who doesn't like good metal, right? But I just wasn't feeling the direction they were swerving in. I never felt LaBrie had the heavy metal type of voice, either. Probably my least go-to albums are SC and BCSL. I grew up listening to Images and Words, Awake, Falling into Infinity, SFAM, and Six Degrees. What came later didn't really fit my musical taste, except from some Octavarium songs. As you mentioned, the fire started to rekindle once DT14 came out. But then was disappointed again with TA.

[Ben_Jamin]

What i think is a key element in the sound that has made some people dislike MM (apart from fanboyism) is his different sense of rhythm, tight hi-hat sounds and playing, and also his much more sparse usage of the crash cymbals compared to MP. That can be felt also in the live versions of older songs (if you listen to ITPOE on the new live album once it comes out you'll get what i'm saying).

That's Mangini's drum style though, totally different than Portnoy.

The cymbals though, is what I noticed mainly in some songs like Scarred, and Hell's Kitchen. Those songs I wish he would stay to Portnoys Drums as composed on the album. Those songs call for Cymbals.

The Mangini Era songs, I appreciate the change in Drumming he brought. He is doing things that we would never hear from Portnoy, and make the songs have this distinct vibe, it's almost like the Drums get lost because they follow the music so well, they blend in with the sound and help emphasize that sound. It's why, whomever made the decison, chose to experiment with his snare and see if lowering it would actually work. It did in some songs (The Enemy Inside, The Bigger Picture) and didn't in others (Along For The Ride, The Looking Glass).

D/T has the best DT drum sound, since the Portnoy albums. And that could be because Mangini raised his cymbals. We can hear them better now.

Remember, Mangini already had a Drumkit built to his liking, one that he couldn't find a band to use it in, until he got the call. Now he is able to use it, and found out how it sounds recorded on ADTOE, and what he can change to make it sounds more clearer, The Cymbals were low in the mix and hard to hear, and could be because of the placement, and blend of the other drums sounds bleeding in.

[MoraWintersoul]

There are drummers far less studious about their kit and playing than Mangini who somehow end up sounding better. I'm aware that it's probably a matter of twiddling a few knobs and everyone making sure those knobs get twiddled (and probably sacrificing other things in the balance of the mix). MP always made sure of that and had that massive sound. Kind of unfair that everyone just prefers the guy who sounds like he hits harder, but that's just the way it is.

[Kotowboy]

As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.

[Max Kuehnau]

As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.

That is very true. I know from personal experience.

[Kotowboy]

As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.

That is very true. I know from personal experience.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

[MoraWintersoul]

As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.

That is very true. I know from personal experience.

Okay, hits better* 

[darkshade]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

[MirrorMask]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

You mean arguably the most, and almost only, true moment of "nerdy prog metal with no soul" on the entire album? 

[Lupton]

All I can say is that whenever I'm in the mood for "nerdy prog metal", Dream Theater is one of the 1st bands that comes to mind -- all their albums. And they do it so brilliantly and smoothly I don't see how this qualification could EVER be used as a slight against their music. And "soul" is pretty subjective judgement that can mean a number of different things musically.

[darkshade]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

You mean arguably the most, and almost only, true moment of "nerdy prog metal with no soul" on the entire album? 

The problem with Mangini DT is there are lots of good ideas everywhere. It's the construction and execution I'm mainly critiquing and how it comes off to my ears. Yes, that solo section is boring despite JP playing a nice solo, and then it's cut short, it should have gone on for a few more minutes at least.

[hunnus2000]

MM's drum tone is FAR superior to MP's tone. I think he's accomplished what he set out to do during the drum auditions. But I will say this, MP's drums on Terminal Velocity sounded fantastic!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

It's perfectly fine if you don't like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It's by far DT's less "technical" album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could've gone in such direction.

(I can smell the "that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best" comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).

[Ben_Jamin]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

It's perfectly fine if you don't like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It's by far DT's less "technical" album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could've gone in such direction.

(I can smell the "that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best" comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).

They're still Bitter. 

That's all on them...

[gzarruk]

They're still Bitter. 

They are

Meanwhile, DT are currently working on album 5 with MM