Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

[Herrick]

Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.

The Astonishing

2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.

I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.

It's perfectly fine if you don't like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It's by far DT's less "technical" album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could've gone in such direction.

(I can smell the "that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best" comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).

I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.

[darkshade]

I'm not bitter about MP leaving the band. I just don't find what they've done since to be anywhere on the level of what came before. Members of bands leave, the sound changes. A drummer is really key when it comes to how a band sounds. The other instrumentalists may be the ones coming up with the notes, the changes, composing, whatever it may be, but the drummer is responsible for what the overall sound is, and I don't find much to enjoy in MM's kit, whether it is on the studio albums or live. Yes, he has all the technical chops for a band like Dream Theater, there is no doubt, I don't even resent Mangini, but his ability is too good, and he's the best technical player in the band now. To me, that means the soul is missing, when Mangini lays back, it's boring, he plays it almost too straight, he sounds like a drum machine. He doesn't throw in fills a whole lot or accent anything. Sometimes MP over did the whole big drum roll into the beginning of a verse thing, but he still kept the lighter music more interesting throughout. It is possible that another drummer may have been better for the band. However, I don't think the split should have happened in the first place. I wouldn't have been as upset at an announcement of a hiatus as I was when MP announced he was leaving DT. As much as I loved and still do like BC&SL, those last 2 MP albums were also seeing the band starting to slip.

As for the rest of the band, I've made this comment before, JP, JR, and JM needed someone like MP to help bring the music down from alien music and bring it down to the human level so us mere mortals could process the music. Without him, I get this sense of "we can whatever we want now" not that they couldn't before, but it's a feeling I can't shake since they seem to go a bit nuts on the technical stuff, or the odd time signatures that don't feel like they flow right. Instead of aging gracefully, I feel like the band has gradually become a quasi-mainstream rock/metal band that can also do all these musical acrobatic stunts. Most of their songs have started sounding the same 3 or 4 albums ago. With Dream Theater you used to be able to expect a wide variety or a focused them with many diverse and dynamic sounds. And it was always a great balance of prog rock and prog metal. Since ADTOE, and really since Systematic Chaos, they have been a heavy metal band first that also does some prog-metal stuff as well, did an album mixing in some Broadway inspired stuff, but very little prog/prog rock to my ears. Other than that, they've had the same sound for 4 albums in a row now. That's not Dream Theater to me.

I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.

The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.

[Herrick]

I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.

The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.

This would've made sense seeing as how the other members had next to nothing to do with the writing of the album which is non-standard operating procedure for Dream Theater. I'm not a big fan of The Astonishing. It was a great departure from what we're used to but it wasn't so alien that it sounded nothing like Dream Theater. Ultimately, any band can release whatever music they want under their band name.

[IDontNotDoThings]

+1 on TA being the antithesis of the "bruh DT has no feel" argument. If anything, people hate it for having too much feel & not enough technical stuff.

[Dedalus]

I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.

The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.

This would've made sense seeing as how the other members had next to nothing to do with the writing of the album which is non-standard operating procedure for Dream Theater. I'm not a big fan of The Astonishing. It was a great departure from what we're used to but it wasn't so alien that it sounded nothing like Dream Theater. Ultimately, any band can release whatever music they want under their band name.

Sounds like "Black Sabbath featuring Tony Iommi" to my ears.
It isn't a smart ideia IMO.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..

[Ben_Jamin]

I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..

I understand it would have been received better...But why should he have to present it that way?

No matter what it was released under, the fact is, it's still the same music, and band. And would be performed the same way it was presented live.

Do people care about Names so much that it distracts how they view the music being presented. I find that an odd way to think about music.

One reason I could see him not releasing it under that name is due to the logistical legalities involved in creating and releasing music. Releasing it under the DT name gives him more funding for the project than having to create an entirely new brand just for this concept. Releasing it under his John Petrucci solo brand wouldn't be given funds as he would have to look for a label, and all that fun legal stuff. Too much of a hassle, just to cater to the audience.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..

I beg to differ here. How did it do any "harm"? To the band, it certainly didn't. We don't have any sales numbers per se, but the album did as well as it possibly could in its time with a tour that has been by far DT's most ambitious (and expensive) live adventure up to date. Most videos I've seen on YouTube of that tour have somewhat full venues, with an extremely cheerful and supporting audience. Also, they are all incredibly proud of the work, and as an artist that's basically the ultimate goal. That certainly doesn't sound too bad once you put it into words. Most people I know were incredibly satisfied with the Astonishing show, me included, so there's not much else to say in this regard.

Now, in what way could it "harm" the fanbase? That sounds like entitlement to me. As I stated before, it's perfectly fine if you don't like TA but the mere existence of that album contradicts the lingering argument of DT being a "soulless, technical band ever since MP left" because that album is absolutely everything but that. It's funny because I've been a member of this forum ever since 2004 (oh, that Octavarium forum) and in my 16 years of being here I've seen a myriad of comments along the lines of: "oh, I wish DT used more of Jordan's piano skills/oh, I wish DT stopped the wank in their instrumental sections and write melodically driven pieces of music/oh, I wish they wrote music that's more suited to JLB's strengths as a singer" and TA delivered absolutely all of that. Sure, maybe it's not what people expected out of such a project (I guess?) and that's OK, you just move on and stay with the DT music that resonates with you, but one thing is what you think about something and other thing is what that thing actually is.

And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.

Yeah, I sure love TA (it's a top 5 DT album for me) because I'm working nowadays as a media composer and this album is musically far closer to what I usually listen to in my every day (I've grown a little bit tired of the whole progressive metal world, but that's just me) but I admit it was not perfect. The visual delivery was very subpar (I hate the 3D models lol), and their whole visual design approach was mediocre at best (I still cringe when I see the font they used to write the names of the songs in their official YouTube videos) but the music is wonderful, and that to me is the most important thing.

Go on with your day, good folk. That was my possibly unpopular post on why TA was a good thing.

[Herrick]

I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..

And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.

I just want to clarify that I don't think The Astonishing should've been a side project. My point was that since the album was entirely written by Petrucci & Ruddess as opposed to all their other albums, it would've made sense if they decided to make it a side project. However, The Astonishing still sounds like Dream Theater to me so I don't have a problem with one way or the other.

[Nachtmerrie]

I'm not bitter about MP leaving the band. I just don't find what they've done since to be anywhere on the level of what came before. Members of bands leave, the sound changes. A drummer is really key when it comes to how a band sounds. The other instrumentalists may be the ones coming up with the notes, the changes, composing, whatever it may be, but the drummer is responsible for what the overall sound is, and I don't find much to enjoy in MM's kit, whether it is on the studio albums or live. Yes, he has all the technical chops for a band like Dream Theater, there is no doubt, I don't even resent Mangini, but his ability is too good, and he's the best technical player in the band now. To me, that means the soul is missing, when Mangini lays back, it's boring, he plays it almost too straight, he sounds like a drum machine. He doesn't throw in fills a whole lot or accent anything. Sometimes MP over did the whole big drum roll into the beginning of a verse thing, but he still kept the lighter music more interesting throughout. It is possible that another drummer may have been better for the band. However, I don't think the split should have happened in the first place. I wouldn't have been as upset at an announcement of a hiatus as I was when MP announced he was leaving DT. As much as I loved and still do like BC&SL, those last 2 MP albums were also seeing the band starting to slip.

As for the rest of the band, I've made this comment before, JP, JR, and JM needed someone like MP to help bring the music down from alien music and bring it down to the human level so us mere mortals could process the music. Without him, I get this sense of "we can whatever we want now" not that they couldn't before, but it's a feeling I can't shake since they seem to go a bit nuts on the technical stuff, or the odd time signatures that don't feel like they flow right. Instead of aging gracefully, I feel like the band has gradually become a quasi-mainstream rock/metal band that can also do all these musical acrobatic stunts. Most of their songs have started sounding the same 3 or 4 albums ago. With Dream Theater you used to be able to expect a wide variety or a focused them with many diverse and dynamic sounds. And it was always a great balance of prog rock and prog metal. Since ADTOE, and really since Systematic Chaos, they have been a heavy metal band first that also does some prog-metal stuff as well, did an album mixing in some Broadway inspired stuff, but very little prog/prog rock to my ears. Other than that, they've had the same sound for 4 albums in a row now. That's not Dream Theater to me.

I completely agree.
The leave of MP might have been good for the rest of the band since they seem to be comfortable with where they are right now and I´m happy to see that there isn´t much (if any) bad blood between MP and the rest of the guys. In the end that's what matters most for them.

As a fan on the other hand it didn't do any good for me. The MM albums are all among my least favorite DT-albums. Too predictive (TA excluded) without any of the Wow factor they had in the nineties and early twenties. 
MP on the other hand contributed to a few great albums but the Neal Morse Band albums would probably have happend too if he was still in DT. Same maybe for the JP albums. I loved the TSF shows but that would also have happened with DT. The rest of his projects including TWD and SOA do basically nothing for me.

So yes, I can understand why they let MP go at that moment but for me it resulted in having less love and attention for the band in which I think MP was a key factor for all the reasons mentioned by others.

[gzarruk]

I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..

I beg to differ here. How did it do any "harm"? To the band, it certainly didn't. We don't have any sales numbers per se, but the album did as well as it possibly could in its time with a tour that has been by far DT's most ambitious (and expensive) live adventure up to date. Most videos I've seen on YouTube of that tour have somewhat full venues, with an extremely cheerful and supporting audience. Also, they are all incredibly proud of the work, and as an artist that's basically the ultimate goal. That certainly doesn't sound too bad once you put it into words. Most people I know were incredibly satisfied with the Astonishing show, me included, so there's not much else to say in this regard.

Now, in what way could it "harm" the fanbase? That sounds like entitlement to me. As I stated before, it's perfectly fine if you don't like TA but the mere existence of that album contradicts the lingering argument of DT being a "soulless, technical band ever since MP left" because that album is absolutely everything but that. It's funny because I've been a member of this forum ever since 2004 (oh, that Octavarium forum) and in my 16 years of being here I've seen a myriad of comments along the lines of: "oh, I wish DT used more of Jordan's piano skills/oh, I wish DT stopped the wank in their instrumental sections and write melodically driven pieces of music/oh, I wish they wrote music that's more suited to JLB's strengths as a singer" and TA delivered absolutely all of that. Sure, maybe it's not what people expected out of such a project (I guess?) and that's OK, you just move on and stay with the DT music that resonates with you, but one thing is what you think about something and other thing is what that thing actually is.

And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.

Yeah, I sure love TA (it's a top 5 DT album for me) because I'm working nowadays as a media composer and this album is musically far closer to what I usually listen to in my every day (I've grown a little bit tired of the whole progressive metal world, but that's just me) but I admit it was not perfect. The visual delivery was very subpar (I hate the 3D models lol), and their whole visual design approach was mediocre at best (I still cringe when I see the font they used to write the names of the songs in their official YouTube videos) but the music is wonderful, and that to me is the most important thing.

Go on with your day, good folk. That was my possibly unpopular post on why TA was a good thing.

Great post!

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...

The fact is that the TA has become the most controversial album in the band's catalog and it was the catalyst, not so the cause, of the way the band
reacted going in to write DoT..The way they wanted to make it a more collective experience, to make music and function again like a band,
to bond again and be 'brothers and musicians' as they said...that's what I meant about doing them harm..clearly for their sake they
seem be to a whole better place and personally I am very proud for them.

As for the music now, personally and I hate to repeat myself, I'm  not the type of fan that constantly request how they should or shouldn't write nor do I ever was in the camp that said they lost their soul after MP left..
But there is a clear distinction about taking risks and be self aware about what your style as a band is.. Honestly it would be more appropriate Nightwish to have made an album like that than DT..
A good example of making a good story/concept with great music is Tyranny and V from Shadow Gallery. Great band by the way!

[Ben_Jamin]

Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...

The fact is that the TA has become the most controversial album in the band's catalog and it was the catalyst, not so the cause, of the way the band
reacted going in to write DoT..The way they wanted to make it a more collective experience, to make music and function again like a band,
to bond again and be 'brothers and musicians' as they said...that's what I meant about doing them harm..clearly for their sake they
seem be to a whole better place and personally I am very proud for them.

As for the music now, personally and I hate to repeat myself, I'm  not the type of fan that constantly request how they should or shouldn't write nor do I ever was in the camp that said they lost their soul after MP left..
But there is a clear distinction about taking risks and be self aware about what your style as a band is.. Honestly it would be more appropriate Nightwish to have made an album like that than DT..
A good example of making a good story/concept with great music is Tyranny and V from Shadow Gallery. Great band by the way!

A Band can do whatever the hell they want. It's the notion that a band HAS TO sound a certain way that makes it harder for Bands to write songs they might really want to make, but know the fans will never appreciate it. A certain sound and style can sell and make good money, It's what the Major Labels do all the time.

The band reacted to the FANS perception of The Astonishing. JP really pays attention to what the fans want, and gives in to demands. So, the next logical decision would be to have done exactly what they did with D/T, Prove to the fans they are still a group entity, MM even decided to write lyrics, and it developed into Room 137, even the Tempo is integral to the meaning of the song being in 137. I don't know if that was a demo MM brought it or not.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...

Agreed on this, and thus the first point of my post. As far as we can know and see, the tour did as fine as it could possibly do and the band is as happy as they possibly could be with the result of the album and the whole concept. If we like it or not, that's an entirely different story.

But the thing is, with art, is that it can be very divisive when it's being ambitious and bold. I do think TA has been the most ambitious and divisive album of their careers, but I'm happy it exists because it shows that DT is not always in a "we want to deliver the perfect DT album, with the right amount of heavy, progressive and melodic elements people love from Dream Theater" state of mind that they've basically done three times in the MM era (ADTOE/DT/DOT). I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).

Of course it's fine if you don't like TA or any other album, opinions are opinions and music is usually a very personal experience; as each one of us know what exactly is what we value the most on it; but fans can be so intense and vocal about their innermost thoughts that they usually spend quite an amount of energy criticizing what they hate and that's usually something that feels off and disengaging of any true and intelligent debate. I often times dream of a world where people don't need to be so expressively vocal and angry about the music they don't like, but that seems like a long shot lol.

[Peter Mc]

As far as The Astonishing goes. I was a big fan when it came out and have cooled a little on it over time although it's been a long time since I listened to it. I knew the second I heard it though that it would be hugely divisive.  My argument has always been that they should have prepared fans for what it was. If it was more "hey everyone, we've done a thing" and they then went on to say they'd written a musical theatre show. I don't think it would have been received as harshly as it was as people would have known what was coming.  However, because it was marketed as the new DT album (and a double disc concept album at that), it raised expectations to a ridiculously high level. People then threw the album on expecting an epic prog metal concept piece and instead got a Broadway/Disney style musical with some metal elements which sounded like nothing they'd ever done before.

I totally applaud JP for trying something completely different instead of just putting out a standard DT album and contend that there is some absolutely inspired stuff on there but he should have warned people what it was.

I disagree by the way that DOT was a reaction to the reception of The Astonishing. I think that was always intended to be something out of left field that JP largely did on his own. The album after was always going to be back to a normal DT record and I said that at the time. Maybe the whole, let's all live and record together may have been throwing the other guys a bone a bit after he had total control on TA but don't think it was due to fan's reactions.

[Setlist Scotty]

I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).

I think it can to some degree. A significant enough misstep (which some attribute to TA) can be enough to lose a part of the fanbase that are not diehards. While you say that from all outward appearances the tour went great, I question that. I don't have time right now to compare the types of venues that DT was playing before, during and after the TA tour, but I think it's pretty telling that the band opted to drop 5 songs from TA so that they could shoe-horn in a 3 song encore of classics towards the end of the tour, and that the following 2 world tours both featured them playing "classic" albums from beginning to end as the second set - in particular during the last tour which should have been focused just on promoting their new album. That they felt the need to do these tours was probably at least in part to feeling backlash from the concert promoters.

I couldn't tell you what festival it was, nor what year, but within the last 6 years I remember hearing about how Steven Wilson was headlining a European festival over Dream Theater! While SW's profile might be growing to a degree, what does that tell you about DT's popularity even in the metal stronghold of Europe? Perhaps this happened before TA - like I said, I don't recall what year - but if it happened in 2017, then TA could have been a factor in that happening.

[Ben_Jamin]

As far as The Astonishing goes. I was a big fan when it came out and have cooled a little on it over time although it's been a long time since I listened to it. I knew the second I heard it though that it would be hugely divisive.  My argument has always been that they should have prepared fans for what it was. If it was more "hey everyone, we've done a thing" and they then went on to say they'd written a musical theatre show. I don't think it would have been received as harshly as it was as people would have known what was coming.  However, because it was marketed as the new DT album (and a double disc concept album at that), it raised expectations to a ridiculously high level. People then threw the album on expecting an epic prog metal concept piece and instead got a Broadway/Disney style musical with some metal elements which sounded like nothing they'd ever done before.

I totally applaud JP for trying something completely different instead of just putting out a standard DT album and contend that there is some absolutely inspired stuff on there but he should have warned people what it was.

I disagree by the way that DOT was a reaction to the reception of The Astonishing. I think that was always intended to be something out of left field that JP largely did on his own. The album after was always going to be back to a normal DT record and I said that at the time. Maybe the whole, let's all live and record together may have been throwing the other guys a bone a bit after he had total control on TA but don't think it was due to fan's reactions.

You mean to tell me, fans of music are so afraid of the unknown they need the band to comfort them first, before they release something unexpected?

Listen, I'm a music fan as well. But, I don't understand that kind of thinking.

The disappointment is entirely on the fans. Expectations, Assumptions, Reflecting on past concept albums, are all things that affected peoples responses to the actual music on the album. People expected another SFAM and automatically make connections to SFAM and the new concept, they create in their mind an assumption to how the album will sound. In turn, when it's not to that assumption, disappointment occurs.

It's exactly what JP describes it as...A Rock Opera, not a Concept Album. A Rock Opera usually has a cast of characters, that can be voiced by different singers, or the main singer, and the characters have a dialogue that tells the story. Concept Albums, usually don't have that character dialogue. Ayreon and Avantasia, brought that Rock Opera format to life and more into the mainstream of an album and brought Broadway to live shows. What Ayreon did with The Theater Equation, did just that, that is the closest you can get to a true Broadway style production of a Rock Opera. The Who did this in a way, but did it in the Movie style with Tommy.

I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).

I think it can to some degree. A significant enough misstep (which some attribute to TA) can be enough to lose a part of the fanbase that are not diehards. While you say that from all outward appearances the tour went great, I question that. I don't have time right now to compare the types of venues that DT was playing before, during and after the TA tour, but I think it's pretty telling that the band opted to drop 5 songs from TA so that they could shoe-horn in a 3 song encore of classics towards the end of the tour, and that the following 2 world tours both featured them playing "classic" albums from beginning to end as the second set - in particular during the last tour which should have been focused just on promoting their new album. That they felt the need to do these tours was probably at least in part to feeling backlash from the concert promoters.

I couldn't tell you what festival it was, nor what year, but within the last 6 years I remember hearing about how Steven Wilson was headlining a European festival over Dream Theater! While SW's profile might be growing to a degree, what does that tell you about DT's popularity even in the metal stronghold of Europe? Perhaps this happened before TA - like I said, I don't recall what year - but if it happened in 2017, then TA could have been a factor in that happening.

You're forgetting the fact that the Booking Agent fudged up majorly by booking venues in places they have already played. That also, plays a major factor in their decisions. Because they already saw it, why would a casual music fan want to see the show again, in the same town? If it was in a different city, those people will then go, oh cool, I can see it now since it's closer to me and I don't have to travel Far this time...Those kinds of things are affected by where you book shows.

[Peter Mc]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

I don't recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album's release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record.  Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.

I'm not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that.  Just say "I've always loved musicals and it's been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It's still Dream Theater but it's something really different for us as it's not a traditional rock album, it's like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it.  It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we're really proud of what we've done.  James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can't wait to get out there and play it for people.

If I read that, before the album came out, I'd still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought "now I get what he meant".  Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.

Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.

[pg1067]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?

[Ben_Jamin]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

I don't recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album's release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record.  Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.

I'm not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that.  Just say "I've always loved musicals and it's been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It's still Dream Theater but it's something really different for us as it's not a traditional rock album, it's like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it.  It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we're really proud of what we've done.  James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can't wait to get out there and play it for people.

If I read that, before the album came out, I'd still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought "now I get what he meant".  Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.

Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.

He did do just that...

https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/

Asked what prompted the idea to make "The Astonishing" a rock-opera concept album so elaborate, with a full, detailed storyline, DREAM THEATER guitarist John Petrucci told RollingStone.com: "The idea to do a concept album as a band felt right. The last one we did [1999's 'Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory'] was about 15 years ago, and it really felt like we were in a good place to do this. I knew that what needed to happen, first and foremost, is that we had to have a story to base this on, because the idea of basing an album off of a loose concept or something that was sort of arbitrary, that didn't interest me at all. I wanted this not only to be a concept album, but really to write a full show. And to have all the elements in place, the story needs to drive that. We needed to have the storyline, a plot, places, characters, maps — you name it. So that started about two and a half years ago; it took about a year for me to get that story done and ready to present to the guys. And I wanted to write from a place that was familiar to me, so I knew that music had to play a role in the story somehow. I'm a huge fan of the sci-fi and fantasy genres, so I had a pretty good idea of where I wanted to go. But it was a matter of really diving into it and working on it, revising and revising again, and working on it every day until I had something solid."

Petrucci also talked in more detail about the songwriting process for "The Atonishing". He said: "Because of the sheer volume of music — you're talking, when all's said and done, probably two hours, 10 minutes' worth of music — every step of this has been a huge process. I don't think I've had time to do anything else over the last year or so [laughs]! In order to do this right, I had to be really, really organized about it. Jordan [Rudess, keyboards] and I wrote the music as really a prog-metal score to the story. We didn't sit down and say, 'Let's write a song, here's the first chorus, whatever.' We would go through the story and say, "What's happening here, where is it taking place?" We had to make sure the mythology was right, the timeline was right. And that carried through on every level. When it came to presenting the orchestration to [veteran conductor and orchestrator] David Campbell and getting him involved; when it came to writing the lyrics, and then me having to go through it song by song, character by character; even things like the artwork, creating the map and all those different towns and cities and roads — every sort of level and layer took a lot of organization and focus."

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?

Oh yes.

[Herrick]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

I don't recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album's release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record.  Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.

I'm not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that.  Just say "I've always loved musicals and it's been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It's still Dream Theater but it's something really different for us as it's not a traditional rock album, it's like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it.  It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we're really proud of what we've done.  James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can't wait to get out there and play it for people.

If I read that, before the album came out, I'd still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought "now I get what he meant".  Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.

Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.

He did do just that...

https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/

Not nearly to the extent Peter MC was talking about though.

[pg1067]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?

Oh yes.

Really?

ANGRY?

That's just sad.

[Ben_Jamin]

Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I'm just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got.  Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn't have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.

I don't recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album's release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record.  Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.

I'm not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that.  Just say "I've always loved musicals and it's been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It's still Dream Theater but it's something really different for us as it's not a traditional rock album, it's like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it.  It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we're really proud of what we've done.  James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can't wait to get out there and play it for people.

If I read that, before the album came out, I'd still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought "now I get what he meant".  Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.

Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.

He did do just that...

https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/

Not nearly to the extent Peter MC was talking about though.

I don't think JP expected this reaction from fans, and likely figured the fans would understand it's a Rock Opera, due to him saying " I wanted this not only to be a concept album, but really to write a full show"

I got that they were doing a Rock Opera, from the way he was describing the story, characters, plot, maps, etc. You must not have been paying much attention to not expect this.

How would JP have known the fans wouldn't be happy with the way these songs are arranged, soft opener and climatic outro to transition the story and plot?

JP gave his reasons to why the songs are arranged the way they are. Which is to showcase the story like an Opera, I've been to Operas and these songs are structured in the same way, where the song is the Scene of the play. The Liner Notes showcases this to the bone with telling where the Scene takes place, it reads like a play script. All these are even before you can hear the album.

AS I SAID. I have no idea what fans Expectations were for this album. JP explained what this album was going to be, the band even had a dedicated site to the album, All revealing the album is not your usual concept album. JP even explained the writing process they took to create the songs, and it isn't how they usually write songs. They actually composed with the story, in his own words...

"Jordan [Rudess, keyboards] and I wrote the music as really a prog-metal score to the story. We didn't sit down and say, 'Let's write a song, here's the first chorus, whatever.' We would go through the story and say, "What's happening here, where is it taking place?" We had to make sure the mythology was right, the timeline was right. And that carried through on every level."

From that, you can gather, the songs are not going to be in the usual Dream Theater structures. The way they were structured is what JP feels should be the score music behind the characters dialogue. Maybe showing their sadness, their contempt, using the music to show the characters emotion. All things like that he explained.

[lovethedrake]

As a fan of The Astonishing, as well as the direction of the band since MP was no longer part of the writing process I wanted to make a few comments.     

First, It's funny to me to hear people say that the band lost its soul or its way AFTER MP left.   I love Portnoy but IMO the band clearly lost it's way after SDOIT.    They wanted to make a balls to the wall metal album and they did just that with TOT... it was not my taste but it was exciting and fresh.   After that album they were never the same... the Magic they had up until SDOIT had evaporated as they tried to become more of a modern metal band and have JL sing like Hetfield.   They have since re-captured some of that magic with the last 3 albums IMO.  I consider ADTOE to be a Portnoy album as you can tell he was part of the writing process and the vocal melodies/production/sound of JL still sounds like the SC/BC&SL years.  It's also not surprisingly my least favorite DT album.   

I would rank the era's:      1.  WDADU through SDOIT      2. DT through DOT     3.  TOT through ADTOE


Second, I love MP and I like his drumming better than MM(MM did Kill on DOT though)  However, whether or not it was Portnoy's fault or not, the band had gotten stale and the change in the band dynamic seems to have given the band a burst of energy needed and seemed to allow them to go back to their natural sound.   

Third, when MP left,  JL got a million times better IMO.    Listen to how great James sounds on the Cover disk of BC&SL VS the album, and also the way he sings on SC and even ADTOE.    Clearly James was "finally free" to get back to soaring over the top Progressive Vocals once MP left the bend.  I know there was a lot of talk about JL's voice going into TOT and how MP wanted him to sing more like a metal singer.  James is finally done doing that and his vocals sound fantastic again.

Fourth, I think a HUGE problem with the Astonishing was the marketing for it.   It was a great idea... have fans pick the good side or the evil side of a war.  This made people think of epic wars and progressive metal glory. The problem is that instead of intense Iron Maiden like songs of war,  they got a rock opera with several hints at Disney.   

Anyways, IMO  DoT is the best DT album since SDOIT by far and I have liked every album more and more since the Self Titled.   Portnoy is one of my favorite drummers of all time and I love him all the way through SDOIT and a lot of what he has done on flying colors etc....   However, although I was upset at the time, I think him leaving ended up being great for DT as a band.

This is all my opinion of course... I'm sure others will disagree and think I'm crazy.

If you were a fan of the more metal side of DT and the albums from Octavarium through ADTOE I can understand why you would feel that the newer stuff is a little watered down.  I actually don't entirely disagree but the sound is WAY more in line with their 90's vibe IMO.   Plus, they are older, in their 50's and 60's now... can we really expect another I&W or SFAM from when they were just bursting onto the music scene?

[gzarruk]

First, I say not part of the writing process because you can feel his presence all over ADTOE and it's easily my least favorite DT album.   I hardly ever listen to it.

What does this even mean, though?

How someone can find Octavarium to be a proggier sounding album than the self titled, astonishing, or DOT is crazy to me outside of the Title track.   

This. I still don't know why Octavarium (the album) gets that much love by some people. It's really good, but definitely not one of their best albums. It's a middle/bottom of the ranking album for me.

[pg1067]

First, I say not part of the writing process because you can feel his presence all over ADTOE and it's easily my least favorite DT album.   I hardly ever listen to it.

Are you saying that "you can feel [MP's] presence all over ADTOE"?  I sure as heck can't (although I'm not really sure what that means).

How someone can find Octavarium to be a proggier sounding album than the self titled, astonishing, or DOT is crazy to me outside of the Title track.

I'll go with you on most of this, although I've never really felt the inclination we analyze and compare the prog levels of two different albums.  I think the "proggier sounding" comments about 8VM stem primarily from (1) the title track, and (2) the diversity of the songs.  All that said, I don't think DOT is a particularly "proggy" album (outside of the requisite odd times and complex rhythms).

[lovethedrake]

ha I didnt realize I had actually posted something already... I made a bunch of changes so re-read the new post. 

[lovethedrake]

Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE?   I could be wrong on that.

I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.

If that's incorrect, then my apologies.   

[Kotowboy]

Really?

ANGRY?

That's just sad.

Agreed.

[Kotowboy]

Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE?   I could be wrong on that.

I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.

If that's incorrect, then my apologies.

No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copied his parts and fleshed them out or wrote

totally new ones based on what sounded best.

I am 100% sure I *read* Petrucci say he only wrote bass drum and snare for every song - but the common belief is that he wrote for the entire drumkit.

[gzarruk]

Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE?   I could be wrong on that.

I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.

If that's incorrect, then my apologies.

Yeah, that's all wrong

All the material was written without MM being in there, but he was already a member of the band. No music from ADTOE was written with MP still in the band. IIRC, the band meeting where MP quit was initially going to be the meeting where they would discuss the direction of their next (11th) album, and that's when he told them he needed/wanted a break.

[lovethedrake]

Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE?   I could be wrong on that.

I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.

If that's incorrect, then my apologies.

No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copid his parts and fleshed them out or wrote totally new ones based on what sounded best.

Interesting, kind of puts a dent in my theory... I'll see myself out haha

Maybe its just the production of that album... I can't put my finger on it but that album just never excites me to listen to it.

Also, I want to be clear on my original post that I still really enjoy a lot of Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL now.  At the time I was very disappointed because they felt like major departures of what I loved about DT.  However, I have since come to enjoy them a great deal, just nowhere near as much as the 90's stuff and SDOIT.

[Kotowboy]

Well - A Dramatic Turn Of Events was written to a drum machine. Mangini wasn't even in the studio with them until he had to record his drum parts.

They recorded TO a drum machine - which MIGHT explain why it sounds a bit lifeless ??


* EDIT - actually i'm not 100% sure if Mangini was there when they were tracking - so I don't know if they RECORDED to the Superior Drummer skeleton drums or Mangini. **

Perhaps Bosky or someone can shed some light x





** I mean obviously Mike Mangini recorded drums on ADTOE - But did he put his live drums down FIRST or at THE END ?

[Setlist Scotty]

Purely speculation on my part, but seeing as the drums are usually the foundation for DT's recording, I would imagine that MM created his drum parts according to the demos that were created, and then he recorded them first for the rest of the band to build off of for the proper recording sessions.