Van Halen studio albums countdown thread! (#01 featured!!)

[KevShmev]

Let's face it, their music is mostly party rock with lyrics that range from cheeky to silly to badly cliched

I don't agree with this. Roth era? Sure. Spot on. Van Hagar era? Not at all. They had a really good balance of more intelligent lyrical content. We just spent a bunch of time talking about Balance, and there are many great lyrics on that album. And there are on For Unlawful as well. Sammy had them trending in a more serious way, which is why I noticed VH back in the For Unlawful era. Right Now caught my ear...

Sammy had his lyrical moments, but had plenty of iffy ones as well ("Do it till we're black and blue!" sure is fine to sing along with, but it ain't Shakespeare), and some of his attempts at more serious lyrics sounded like a cliche-fest, IMO. 

Honest question: what lyrics on Balance would you classify as great?   

[TAC]

I had Van Halen II at #4. When I was younger, it spent quite a while as my favorite. So many great songs. I ranked Light Up The Sky as my #1 VH tune. DOA has always stood out.

12   Van Halen III
11   Balance
10   Diver Down
9
8     OU812
7     A Different Kind Of Truth
6     For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge
5
4     Van Halen II
3
2    Women And Children First
1

[Stadler]

Let's face it, their music is mostly party rock with lyrics that range from cheeky to silly to badly cliched

I don't agree with this. Roth era? Sure. Spot on. Van Hagar era? Not at all. They had a really good balance of more intelligent lyrical content. We just spent a bunch of time talking about Balance, and there are many great lyrics on that album. And there are on For Unlawful as well. Sammy had them trending in a more serious way, which is why I noticed VH back in the For Unlawful era. Right Now caught my ear...

More SERIOUS, I'll give you, but I don't agree with more intelligent.  I think the lyrics on ADKOT are as intelligent and smart and witty as they come (that album has the best lyrics in the Van Halen catalogue, bar none, in my humble opinion), but there's still not a lot of "save the world" seriousness. 

[Samsara]

Honest question: what lyrics on Balance would you classify as great?

It's almost a no-win for me to post that without an objective definition of "great." I could go on a detailed post and try and do that, but obviously, people will differ. So for me:

Feelin' is one of those tunes for me. Don't Tell Me is another.

And Stads - honestly man, I don't care if you agree with my use of "more intelligent" or not. DLR is an intelligent guy, and certainly witty, obviously, but he's not a very deep lyric writer.

[KevShmev]

Honest question: what lyrics on Balance would you classify as great?

It's almost a no-win for me to post that without an objective definition of "great." I could go on a detailed post and try and do that, but obviously, people will differ. So for me:

Feelin' is one of those tunes for me. Don't Tell Me is another.

And Stads - honestly man, I don't care if you agree with my use of "more intelligent" or not. DLR is an intelligent guy, and certainly witty, obviously, but he's not a very deep lyric writer.

Jeez, this is the second time recently you threw out the "I don't care if you agree with me or not" sentiment at someone (you threw it at me last month).  I guess, going forward, no one should disagree with anything you say, even in a friendly manner, because you don't care if anyone agrees with you or not?

Edit: feels like this is all friendly back and forth and whatnot, and of course there will be a difference of opinions, but "I don't care what you think" (or a similar sentiment) feels awfully dismissive in what has otherwise been a friendly discussion.  Just my two cents.  As you were. 

[Stadler]

Honest question: what lyrics on Balance would you classify as great?

It's almost a no-win for me to post that without an objective definition of "great." I could go on a detailed post and try and do that, but obviously, people will differ. So for me:

Feelin' is one of those tunes for me. Don't Tell Me is another.

And Stads - honestly man, I don't care if you agree with my use of "more intelligent" or not. DLR is an intelligent guy, and certainly witty, obviously, but he's not a very deep lyric writer.

But you've answered that; it depends on the standard.   I thought - and still do think - that the lyrics to Tattoo have real insight. I quoted one before; it's a throw-away line of sorts, but I'm not a tattoo guy.  I don't want to insult anyone here - or anywhere for that matter - but the number of people I see "rebelling" with stock tats out of a book at the parlor is a baffling phenomenon to me.  I was at a bar once (this pre-COVID now) sitting next to an old guy I didn't know (about my age) and a cute girl of about 26, or so walks up.  She's rather plain, conservative hair style, blouse that didn't show much and pastel shorts that you'd wear to church... and a full sleeve of flowers down her arm.  She walks away and the guy next to me says "she teaches your kids".   I know a woman that was trapped - in a way - in a marriage, and kids and all that goes with it, so for her 40th birthday, her means of rebelling and escaping and feeling alive again was getting a lower back tattoo.  And so Dave's "from mousewife to momshell in the time it takes to get that new tattoo" is actually pretty deep to me. I KNOW that woman.  He's capturing a real social phenomenon, and one I don't understand all that well. 

And it's not just that one line.  That album is chock full of stuff like that. Blood and Fire; As Is; The Trouble With Never; even Stay Frosty (which touches on religion).  Compare that last one to Sammy, who has gone on record that "Mine All Mine" was one of his transcendent lyrics; they took the longest (for that album) and they were something he beat himself up over and rewrote them several times.   

All the words on the wall look the same in the mirror
Every riddle and every clue
Oh, you got Allah in the east, you got Jesus in the west
Christ, what's a man to do?

They'll find a cure for anything
Just kill the pain
Oh, numb my brain
We see a man speaking the word of God
Proven to be a fraud
His own church applauds
Stop lookin' out, start lookin' in
Be your own best friend
Stand up and say
Hey, this is mine, ooh

Uh....  his answer is to numb his brain?   And look, for a spell there, it was de rigeur to write songs bagging on preachers; Maiden, Sammy (more than once), Ozzy... there wasn't a rock band in existence in the late 80s early 90s that didn't have their "preacher" song.  I don't know; maybe it's a me problem, but even the Sam lyrics I connect with (in Van Halen) aren't that deep.  (To be fair, he's done a LOT better in his solo stuff). 

[TAC]

I look at DLR's as somewhat cringey, but they were at least meant to be cringey.  What's the Sammy Era's excuse?

[Samsara]

Jeez, this is the second time recently you threw out the "I don't care if you agree with me or not" sentiment at someone (you threw it at me last month).  I guess, going forward, no one should disagree with anything you say, even in a friendly manner, because you don't care if anyone agrees with you or not?

Edit: feels like this is all friendly back and forth and whatnot, and of course there will be a difference of opinions, but "I don't care what you think" (or a similar sentiment) feels awfully dismissive in what has otherwise been a friendly discussion.  Just my two cents.  As you were. 

Relax, Kev. It's not dismissive, and Stads knows that, since I was replying to him.

The discourse is fine, and generally always is. But I'm not going to sit there and defend my opinion on something as subjective as music. I'll discuss what I think, and discuss favorites and such in these threads, but I make it clear when the topic (such as what is "more intelligent" or not) is so subjective that I'm not going to debate it. After doing these online forums since the mid-1990s, I am not interested in "debating" about anything. I've done that. It's old. And while I enjoy reading peoples' opinions and giving my own, I'm less interested in going back and forth on a differing opinion. I'll do it face to face (one day, I am hoping to grab a beer with Stads, with TAC in the room, him giving us a topic, and saying "go" and Stads and I will go to town - lol), but sitting here typing out debates on message boards...after almost 30 years of it, nah, no interest.

[Samsara]

I look at DLR's as somewhat cringey, but they were at least meant to be cringey.  What's the Sammy Era's excuse?

I think Sammy's more throwaway lyrics with Van Halen were meant to keep the band's looser Dave era fan base happy. Just my thoughts.

Stads - good post. I guess in thinking about it more since I posted, Sammy is more apt for social commentary. Then again, MAS TEQUILA! LOL!!!! The ultimate cringe. 

Anyway, so subjective. But I'd never see DLR writing stuff like "Right Now." that's just not DLR.

[Samsara]

As an aside, I remember seeing DLR in September 1999 at CPI's, at home on Long Island. Dude was just about 45 at the time, jumping off that small stage, spread eagle with glittery silver pants. LOL! It was the DLR Band album, the one he did with John 5. I don't think John 5 was with him on that tour though. Anyway, this conversation reminded me of that show. I had no interest in DLR at the time. I just went with friends. No air conditioning, so after busting our way in the door to see the show, we hung out for a bit and then just stayed in the parking lot. I believe they left the doors open, so we just listened outside. 

[TAC]

I look at DLR's as somewhat cringey, but they were at least meant to be cringey.  What's the Sammy Era's excuse?

I think Sammy's more throwaway lyrics with Van Halen were meant to keep the band's looser Dave era fan base happy. Just my thoughts.

Maybe, I hadn't thought about it like that before. Interesting.

[King Postwhore]

I remember Eddie and Sammy having a battle over the lyrics to Amsterdam. I read about it. I just don't remember the reasons. Same thing with Humans Being.

[Stadler]

I remember Eddie and Sammy having a battle over the lyrics to Amsterdam. I read about it. I just don't remember the reasons. Same thing with Humans Being.

I think Amsterdam was just because they were stupid ("Wham, bam, Amsterdam!").  "Humans Being" was something else.  Sam and his wife were in Hawaii, and she was pregnant.  He didn't want to leave the island and wanted to be there for the birth, but the brothers wanted to do this soundtrack and (according to Sam) sort of bullied him into flying to California to record the vocals.  I think "Resect The Wind" was instrumental because Sammy finally said "no dice" and left the band (or at least that was the seeds of him leaving the band).

[The Realm]

Van Halen II - my rank 4. Great album, start to finish. Just a really enjoyable listen.

Current list:

12   Van Halen III
11   Diver Down
10   A Different Kind of Truth
9   Balance
8   OU812
7   For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge
6   
5   Women and Children First
4   Van Halen II
3   
2   
1   

[KevShmev]

Jeez, this is the second time recently you threw out the "I don't care if you agree with me or not" sentiment at someone (you threw it at me last month).  I guess, going forward, no one should disagree with anything you say, even in a friendly manner, because you don't care if anyone agrees with you or not?

Edit: feels like this is all friendly back and forth and whatnot, and of course there will be a difference of opinions, but "I don't care what you think" (or a similar sentiment) feels awfully dismissive in what has otherwise been a friendly discussion.  Just my two cents.  As you were. 

Relax, Kev. It's not dismissive, and Stads knows that, since I was replying to him.

The discourse is fine, and generally always is. But I'm not going to sit there and defend my opinion on something as subjective as music. I'll discuss what I think, and discuss favorites and such in these threads, but I make it clear when the topic (such as what is "more intelligent" or not) is so subjective that I'm not going to debate it. After doing these online forums since the mid-1990s, I am not interested in "debating" about anything. I've done that. It's old. And while I enjoy reading peoples' opinions and giving my own, I'm less interested in going back and forth on a differing opinion. I'll do it face to face (one day, I am hoping to grab a beer with Stads, with TAC in the room, him giving us a topic, and saying "go" and Stads and I will go to town - lol), but sitting here typing out debates on message boards...after almost 30 years of it, nah, no interest.

I get all that, but all I was saying is, resorting to "I don't care what you think"-type replies doesn't exactly stimulate good discussion, but if you want to give your opinions and not read ones that disagree with yours and discuss it on a discussion forum, alrighty then.

[Zoom E]

VH II is my ultimate summer album. It just has such a fun vibe. I had it at #2, though on a different day it might have been #3.

[Samsara]

Kev,

That's not what I said at all.

[WardySI]

Had VHII at #7 although had we done this a few years back it probably would've been a couple places higher because even at #7 think it's a cracking record \m/

[KevShmev]

04 Fair Warning

Highest finish: 1 (jjrock88, TAC, Stadler, Mosh, Kingly Gizz & Liz Wiz Bizzy)
Lowest finish: 10 (bosk1, MusicMaker)

I was surprised to see this finish 4th, although it was pretty close to finishing 2nd, so the margins were thin.  I ranked this 2nd, off the strength alone of the first five songs, all of which are freaking awesome.  The rest of the album is good as well.  And I love the step back up in sound on this one.  Not that II and WC&F didn't sound good, because they did, but this one has that little extra warmth in the mix, similar to the debut, that makes listening to it that much better.  Great record.

Favorite songs: Mean Street, Sinners Swing!, Unchained, Dirty Movies and Hear About It Later

[Mladen]

I am also surprised to see this one at #4. I had it at #2 and was confident it will end up in the top three. Those first five songs truly are fantastic, top tier Van Halen material. The album does kind of meander towards the end, but still, that's like five or six minutes of an otherwise great half an hour record.

[jingle.boy]

I'm surprised it's 4th as well, but for different reasons!  It ended up being 9th for me, and only because I'd only listened to ADKOT once - over time, FW will fall to 10th I'm certain.  FW and WACF were the last two (disregarding ADKOT for obvious reasons) VH albums that I got in to.  I just don't get this one.  Unchained I knew as the "hit" from the record, but other than that and So This is Love, there isn't much about this album that appeals to me.  Re-listening to it now, and it's still not clicking with me.  I try not to gripe about the VH's album lengths, but it's another one with only 31 minutes of music - and the final four minutes being filler.    I just can't wrap my head around rating an album that's shorter than my average morning movement.

[devieira73]

FW is also my #4. Amazing album, VH really opened more its sound and it's their grooviest album. Michael Anthony reallly shines here!

[Stadler]

I'm surprised it's 4th as well, but for different reasons!  It ended up being 9th for me, and only because I'd only listened to ADKOT once - over time, FW will fall to 10th I'm certain.  FW and WACF were the last two (disregarding ADKOT for obvious reasons) VH albums that I got in to.  I just don't get this one.  Unchained I knew as the "hit" from the record, but other than that and So This is Love, there isn't much about this album that appeals to me.  Re-listening to it now, and it's still not clicking with me.  I try not to gripe about the VH's album lengths, but it's another one with only 31 minutes of music - and the final four minutes being filler.    I just can't wrap my head around rating an album that's shorter than my average morning movement.

To each their own, but I don't get the "length" criticisms.   

VH: 35:33
VHII: 31:36
WACF: 33:35
FW: 31:11
DD: 31:04
84: 33:22

It's not like every other album were hour-length double albums.  Even WACF has Tora! Tora! and Growth, which aren't even "solo pieces", just snippets.   And this wasn't terribly unusual for the time; Kiss' Dressed To Kill was something like 30:05. 

[Stadler]

12   Van Halen III
11   Women And Children First
10   For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge
9   Balance
8   
7   OU812
6   
5   Van Halen II
4   Diver Down
3   A Different Kind Of Truth
2   
1   Fair Warning


Fair Warning is the one for me.  Coupled with the last song from WACF ("In A Simple Rhyme") that's the Van Halen I go to most.  That first album side is just killer from top to bottom.   The intro to "Hear About It Later" is my ring tone for my ex-wife. 

[WilliamMunny]

12   Van Halen III
11   Women And Children First
10   For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge
9   Balance
8   
7   OU812
6   
5   Van Halen II
4   Diver Down
3   A Different Kind Of Truth
2   
1   Fair Warning


Fair Warning is the one for me.  Coupled with the last song from WACF ("In A Simple Rhyme") that's the Van Halen I go to most.  That first album side is just killer from top to bottom.   The intro to "Hear About It Later" is my ring tone for my ex-wife. 

My man, I wondered where you'd fall on this.

I LOVE Hagar...hell, I even dig the VHIII album, but for my money, Fair Warning is this band at their apex.

I often go through periods where I get the itch to listen to a certain VH record, but rarely does listening to Balance lead me to listening to VHI, simply bc they are different albums offering me different things.

That said, Fair Warning is an album that I am ALWAYS in the mood to listen to.

[Mladen]

Unchained I knew as the "hit" from the record, but other than that and So This is Love, there isn't much about this album that appeals to me.

You don't care about Sinners Swing! and Hear about it later? I'd understand people disliking the first two songs, as they are kind of slow and dark sounding, but the next two are the real deal. Sinners is ferocious, Hear is catchy, they get me going every time and are classic Van Halen in the vein of the first two albums. 

The early Van Halen albums are kind of short even compared to the standard album lenghts of the time. Sure, Dressed to kill is short, but most of the early Kiss albums are longer than VHII, Fair warning and Diver down. Even the shorter Aerosmith, AC/DC and Boston albums are longer in comparison.

[HOF]

I have Fair Warning 8th, but it's another one that grew on me during the last VH countdown and could have probably been a couple spots higher. Mean Street is great and a really fun opener. And I have always been a big fan of Unchained (a top DLR song IMO).

But it's actually the second half that I like best here. Those last 4 songs are so unusual and experimental for VH. Love Eddie's guitar solos on Push Comes to Shove and So This Is Love? And then Sunday Afternoon in the Park/One Foot Out The Door is a really cool pair of tracks. Seems like Eddie was channeling Robert Fripp a bit there.

[Samsara]

I had Fair Warning at #9. Not sure I understand the love for this record. I know there are a variety of circumstances that lead to an album connecting with folks, but for me, I find the seven actual songs to just be okay. "Unchained" is a favorite, and is pretty popular and was a single. "Mean Street" is good too. But the rest, while they aren't bad, just don't hit me as hard as other Roth era tracks.

[Grappler]

I look at DLR's as somewhat cringey, but they were at least meant to be cringey.  What's the Sammy Era's excuse?

I think Sammy's more throwaway lyrics with Van Halen were meant to keep the band's looser Dave era fan base happy. Just my thoughts.

Maybe, I hadn't thought about it like that before. Interesting.

I can see that - but Sammy also has his own party-vibe, which is more evident in his solo material, like Mas Tequila and Serious Ju Ju.  Hell, he owns a nightclub and basically wrote an entire record about beach life in Mexico. 

I do agree that Sammy's serious lyrics are better than DLR's, and maybe he had a better balance between the lighter and serious topics.  Right Now is very poignant and hasn't ever gone out of date.  Some of the DLR lyrics to me are 100% stuck in the 1980's sunset strip vibe.

[jingle.boy]

I'm surprised it's 4th as well, but for different reasons!  It ended up being 9th for me, and only because I'd only listened to ADKOT once - over time, FW will fall to 10th I'm certain.  FW and WACF were the last two (disregarding ADKOT for obvious reasons) VH albums that I got in to.  I just don't get this one.  Unchained I knew as the "hit" from the record, but other than that and So This is Love, there isn't much about this album that appeals to me.  Re-listening to it now, and it's still not clicking with me.  I try not to gripe about the VH's album lengths, but it's another one with only 31 minutes of music - and the final four minutes being filler.    I just can't wrap my head around rating an album that's shorter than my average morning movement.

To each their own, but I don't get the "length" criticisms.   

VH: 35:33
VHII: 31:36
WACF: 33:35
FW: 31:11
DD: 31:04
84: 33:22

It's not like every other album were hour-length double albums.  Even WACF has Tora! Tora! and Growth, which aren't even "solo pieces", just snippets.   And this wasn't terribly unusual for the time; Kiss' Dressed To Kill was something like 30:05.

You're kinda making my point for me  .  All of those DLR albums are brutally short, and (for me), the quality doesn't make up for the lack of quantity.  I'd sooner listen to 51 minutes of OU812 over any of the 31-ish minute DLR albums - even without a credible WOW/5* song on OU812, the consistent 'very good' quality overshadows the lack of quantity on the DLR albums that have a handful of songs that are better (along with a handful that are worse). 

TASTES^TM!!!

[Samsara]

Not sure of the ages of everyone here, but it should be mentioned that the length of the Roth era records was absolutely on par with the time. That era of the band was in the LP and 8 track era. You should also note that unlike the mid-80s output, VH (like most bands) put out an album PER YEAR for their first five records. Then they skipped two years before doing 1984. Once Sammy got on board, sure, the albums were longer, but it took a minimum of two years for new material.

If you think about it, the Roth era produced more minutes of music per two year cycle than the Sammy era did. It was just a different time and different media made a big impact on the length of the recordings.

[WilliamMunny]

Not sure of the ages of everyone here, but it should be mentioned that the length of the Roth era records was absolutely on par with the time. That era of the band was in the LP and 8 track era. You should also note that unlike the mid-80s output, VH (like most bands) put out an album PER YEAR for their first five records. Then they skipped two years before doing 1984. Once Sammy got on board, sure, the albums were longer, but it took a minimum of two years for new material.

If you think about it, the Roth era produced more minutes of music per two year cycle than the Sammy era did. It was just a different time and different media made a big impact on the length of the recordings.

Nearing the big four-five, so mid-late '80s and cassettes were my era, but I have long felt that 30-35 minutes is a good length for an LP. Someone mentioned KISS, and I think those first three albums are all perfect in terms of length.

Obviously, there's no rules to any of this, but I personally would always prefer 30 minutes of 'all killer' (i.e., Fair Warning) than 45 minutes with a load of bloat (see nearly every '90s band that I listened to).

Of course, genre also plays into this, but when it comes to straight-ahead R&R, gimme a solid 32 minutes and I'm good.

[Stadler]

I'm surprised it's 4th as well, but for different reasons!  It ended up being 9th for me, and only because I'd only listened to ADKOT once - over time, FW will fall to 10th I'm certain.  FW and WACF were the last two (disregarding ADKOT for obvious reasons) VH albums that I got in to.  I just don't get this one.  Unchained I knew as the "hit" from the record, but other than that and So This is Love, there isn't much about this album that appeals to me.  Re-listening to it now, and it's still not clicking with me.  I try not to gripe about the VH's album lengths, but it's another one with only 31 minutes of music - and the final four minutes being filler.    I just can't wrap my head around rating an album that's shorter than my average morning movement.

To each their own, but I don't get the "length" criticisms.   

VH: 35:33
VHII: 31:36
WACF: 33:35
FW: 31:11
DD: 31:04
84: 33:22

It's not like every other album were hour-length double albums.  Even WACF has Tora! Tora! and Growth, which aren't even "solo pieces", just snippets.   And this wasn't terribly unusual for the time; Kiss' Dressed To Kill was something like 30:05.

You're kinda making my point for me  .  All of those DLR albums are brutally short, and (for me), the quality doesn't make up for the lack of quantity.  I'd sooner listen to 51 minutes of OU812 over any of the 31-ish minute DLR albums - even without a credible WOW/5* song on OU812, the consistent 'very good' quality overshadows the lack of quantity on the DLR albums that have a handful of songs that are better (along with a handful that are worse). 

TASTES^TM!!!

No that's fair; I thought you were singling out FW (and DD got the same treatment - not from you - when it came up.  I was just saying it's indicative of the band in that era, not any one (or two) albums. 

I agree - TASTES - but for me, it's a non-issue.

[TAC]

To each their own, but I don't get the "length" criticisms.   

[HOF]

I think the shorter VH albums was more feature than bug. But yeah, that's how most albums were back then anyway.