DT16 Timeline Thread - Presumably somewhere in Post-Production

[Glasser]

What if it's all just Portnoy drumming away with a few musical notes sprinkled throughout.

I snuck in the studio and did this...

[Zydar]

I haven't listened to that covers CD since it came out. I have to re-visit it this weekend. I remember liking Stargazer and that Zebra song.

I'm listening now. I'd forgotten how much that Maiden cover rocks (and the original too, of course). And yeah the Queen cover is great. 

[Trav]

It came out in 2009 so I'm going to guess the last time I listened to it was probably 2009.

[Ayeegit]

i don't think that really was a creative decision as much as trying to keep everyone happy in the band. As in, Morse and Stolz clashed and MP suggested doing both views, hence all the versions of that album. And then TA stopped.

Did TA end on a bad note? I remember someone posting a while back about a "blow up" near the end of their last tour - but I hadn't heard about it at the time, and your comment just made me remember I never found out much about what was going on there at the end...

[KevShmev]

Did TA end on a bad note? I remember someone posting a while back about a "blow up" near the end of their last tour - but I hadn't heard about it at the time, and your comment just made me remember I never found out much about what was going on there at the end...

It's been implied by several people "in the know" that two of the members of Transatlantic weren't getting along at all at the end of their last run, but while there has been some speculation, much of it being that it was probably Neal and Roine, it has never been confirmed publicly as far as I know as who those two members were. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I always felt like the beginning of OTBOA kinda had a similar feel to the end of TCOT. Not sure if it was an intentional nugget, probably not but it reminded me of the way they used to have the albums segue into each other. If they were going to bring that back it would have to connect to the previous album, not the one they released 15 years ago (in general I think people are going to be surprised when it sounds more like a continuation of View, since that's where the majority of the band is at musically).

The secrecy around this album and the fact that it seems like they aren't even going to preview it on this upcoming tour really makes me think they went the concept album route. It's going to be pretty anticlimactic if the big reveal is a "normal" DT album with a bunch of unrelated songs. Feels like they're going bigger than that.

This has been my prediction too. However, my suspicions have been tempered by a couple of thoughts and I'd be curious how others think of this.

First, by JP's own admission he came into View (after already having written 2 albums) with a relatively blank slate. We don't know if that is the case here with DT16. His approach is going to affect the writing - does he come in with saved ideas or does he come in blank? Second, Mangini's contributions are an integral part of View. Now that there is a very different type of player in there it will logically impact the record. We all may come out on different sides of the questions but I think most agree drummers matter. The last thing is, we don't know what album they're *trying* to make. With ADTOE - regardless of what they've said officially - there was widespread belief for good reason that they channeled I&W. But ADTOE is not I&W. It has its own unique sound despite the song forms being eerily similar. So, did they come into DT16 with a pre-conceived idea or was it just a big jam session leading to songs or something else entirely?

There are so many variables we're in the dark about that I am starting to think this is impossible to predict but when we hear it we're all going to be like 'of course that's how they did it.'

I think that at minimum we are headed for a very solid release. The band knows there haven't been this many eyeballs on them since 2011. MP has compared this moment to the biggest inflection points in the band's history (not including the one that followed his departure of course). I just can't imagine they don't bring it on DT16...but will it sound like View? I am starting to have doubts.

[evilasiojr]

https://youtu.be/afbdGKJCR1M?si=StvBCH073dL5DRPE

I dont know if this has already been posted or not, but on this interview about his solo work Jordan talks about the new album and specially having MP back from 30:20 on, only for a few minutes.

But he does say something interesting about MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities, and how they are very present in this new album. He even mentions he is good at saying "this melody should also be present on this other song...", which makes me think DT16 might be somewhat a concept album.

[hunnus2000]

https://youtu.be/afbdGKJCR1M?si=StvBCH073dL5DRPE

I dont know if this has already been posted or not, but on this interview about his solo work Jordan talks about the new album and specially having MP back from 30:20 on, only for a few minutes.

But he does say something interesting about MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities, and how they are very present in this new album. He even mentions he is good at saying "this melody should also be present on this other song...", which makes me think DT16 might be somewhat a concept album.

I am surprised about 2 things:
1) JR has not scored a movie
2) MP hasn't directed a film, even a short

[illusionist]

https://youtu.be/afbdGKJCR1M?si=StvBCH073dL5DRPE

But he does say something interesting about MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities, and how they are very present in this new album. He even mentions he is good at saying "this melody should also be present on this other song...", which makes me think DT16 might be somewhat a concept album.

I listened to this specific part of the video and i did pay attention to this exact comment.
But apart this meaning they wrote a concept album, it can also mean that they just jammed together, gathered some ideas, melodies, odd meters, to have at hand so they could use them wherever they found fit.
And maybe Jordan's comment meant something like this, they wrote some spare melodies and MP knew exactly if they should use them, and what song for.

[The Letter M]

https://youtu.be/afbdGKJCR1M?si=StvBCH073dL5DRPE

I dont know if this has already been posted or not, but on this interview about his solo work Jordan talks about the new album and specially having MP back from 30:20 on, only for a few minutes.

But he does say something interesting about MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities, and how they are very present in this new album. He even mentions he is good at saying "this melody should also be present on this other song...", which makes me think DT16 might be somewhat a concept album.

They've used melodies across different songs in previous albums that weren't concept albums before, most famously with "Wait For Sleep" and "Learning To Live", so it wouldn't surprise me if they did something similar.

-Marc.

[Jamesman42]

Wait for Sleep / Learning to Live
Some Awake songs I believe
Vacant / Stream of Consciousness
Octavarium the album (but that's part of the theme)

[gzarruk]

Wait for Sleep / Learning to Live
Some Awake songs I believe
Vacant / Stream of Consciousness
Octavarium the album (but that's part of the theme)

The Mirror / Lie
The Mirror / Space-Dye Vest
Far From Heaven / Breaking All Illusions

[CraftyCaleb2483]

About to Crash/ About to Crash Reprise     

[Pettor]

One of the things I really hope they bring back is MP's "cinematic/movie director kind of abilities" for the album. He had this unique ability to inject fun details / nuggets and give each album a distinct identity, which I feel got partly lost after his departure.

When they released ADTOE, I was a bit surprised by some simple mistakes that really shouldn't have been there. Considering how crucial that album was in showing fans, and casual listeners, that the band was still worth following after MP's exit, it was disappointing to hear what I believe is some of the worst drum production in the band's history. They improved it later but it's still a bit too late and shouldn't have been like that to begin with. It's just confusing considering the album mainly had to showcase good drumming and this must have been well understood. At the same time maybe it was hard enough to just produce an album at that stage.

My point is that the band should treat this stage in their career with the same level of importance. There's no room for anything average or half-baked if they want to keep convincing a wider audience. I truly hope they bring their A-game and go all in

Maybe it's a lot to ask this late in their career, and maybe it will mostly benefit the core fans and that's okay as well. But seeing shows sold out like the one in Sweden indicates this is a special opportunity. The shows with Mangini in Sweden wasn't even close to being sold out.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

One of the things I really hope they bring back is MP's "cinematic/movie director kind of abilities" for the album. He had this unique ability to inject fun details / nuggets and give each album a distinct identity, which I feel got partly lost after his departure.

When they released ADTOE, I was a bit surprised by some simple mistakes that really shouldn't have been there. Considering how crucial that album was in showing fans, and casual listeners, that the band was still worth following after MP's exit, it was disappointing to hear what I believe is some of the worst drum production in the band's history. They improved it later but it's still a bit too late and shouldn't have been like that to begin with. It's just confusing considering the album mainly had to showcase good drumming and this must have been well understood. At the same time maybe it was hard enough to just produce an album at that stage.

My point is that the band should treat this stage in their career with the same level of importance. There's no room for anything average or half-baked if they want to keep convincing a wider audience. I truly hope they bring their A-game and go all in

Maybe it's a lot to ask this late in their career, and maybe it will mostly benefit the core fans and that's okay as well. But seeing shows sold out like the one in Sweden indicates this is a special opportunity. The shows with Mangini in Sweden wasn't even close to being sold out.

The ADTOE 'mistakes' you're talking about are just the drum production?

To the next sentence, I don't think they were trying to show that the 'band was worth following after MP's exit' - more like they were trying to show that DT is still here and fans can still expect great music from us. I don't have sales or box office statistics to back it up but I think when they released ADTOE they demonstrated that MP is not the Dream Theater-be-all-end-all. It appears to be a highly regarded album generally and when you put it in the context of its time (i.e., it was released after 3 consecutive MP albums that were/are not widely liked) I think the question in a lot of fans' minds back then might have been very different to what you posed: was MP leaving the best thing for DT?

[CraftyCaleb2483]

When they released ADTOE, I was a bit surprised by some simple mistakes that really shouldn't have been there.

Yeah, for example, the making of the album in the first place 

[WilliamMunny]

One of the things I really hope they bring back is MP's "cinematic/movie director kind of abilities" for the album. He had this unique ability to inject fun details / nuggets and give each album a distinct identity, which I feel got partly lost after his departure.

When they released ADTOE, I was a bit surprised by some simple mistakes that really shouldn't have been there. Considering how crucial that album was in showing fans, and casual listeners, that the band was still worth following after MP's exit, it was disappointing to hear what I believe is some of the worst drum production in the band's history. They improved it later but it's still a bit too late and shouldn't have been like that to begin with. It's just confusing considering the album mainly had to showcase good drumming and this must have been well understood. At the same time maybe it was hard enough to just produce an album at that stage.

My point is that the band should treat this stage in their career with the same level of importance. There's no room for anything average or half-baked if they want to keep convincing a wider audience. I truly hope they bring their A-game and go all in

Maybe it's a lot to ask this late in their career, and maybe it will mostly benefit the core fans and that's okay as well. But seeing shows sold out like the one in Sweden indicates this is a special opportunity. The shows with Mangini in Sweden wasn't even close to being sold out.

It's your opinion and you are very much entitled to it, but I'm of the opinion that the production (including drums) was a step in the right direction on ADTOE.

I much prefer the drum sound on that album to the 4 that followed.

[Pettor]

The ADTOE 'mistakes' you're talking about are just the drum production?

To the next sentence, I don't think they were trying to show that the 'band was worth following after MP's exit' - more like they were trying to show that DT is still here and fans can still expect great music from us. I don't have sales or box office statistics to back it up but I think when they released ADTOE they demonstrated that MP is not the Dream Theater-be-all-end-all. It appears to be a highly regarded album generally and when you put it in the context of its time (i.e., it was released after 3 consecutive MP albums that were/are not widely liked) I think the question in a lot of fans' minds back then might have been very different to what you posed: was MP leaving the best thing for DT?

The drum production confuse me because there should have been people around that could have hinted at that? I know it's not Mangini's fault or anything just that it feels strange how that crucial aspect was underwhelming. Just like how there should have been people around hinting at the awful mix for the self titled album, an album I also would argue was important for the band showing just how good it could be without MP. It just confuses me. At least they got it right after that ... with the mix I mean 

ADTOE is great and that was never being questioned. The album was a pretty clear change into a more traditional prog metal sound and I remember how fans wanted just that, which I guess would beg the question if MP leaving was the right thing. For the time I am sure it was. I don't think anyone should regret what happened, it was most likely for the better. If we are lucky the tour and album will be amazing and inject new energy, which I sort of wanted after AVFTTOTW.

Right now I just want them to actually make the album sound a bit different and contain a new energy with MP being a part of that. Not utilizing "MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities" on this album would be a missed opportunity for me.

In regards to the box office Dream Theater-be-all-end-all I have been wondering if having MP back is also a good thing for the economy. Don't have anything to back this up with either but since the tours had less and less people for every show, in at least Sweden, it must at least been in their minds. I understand this tour is special and currently not a good measurement because just having MP back and 40 year anniversary will affect the sales.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The drum production confuse me because there should have been people around that could have hinted at that? I know it's not Mangini's fault or anything just that it feels strange how that crucial aspect was underwhelming. Just like how there should have been people around hinting at the awful mix for the self titled album, an album I also would argue was important for the band showing just how good it could be without MP. It just confuses me. At least they got it right after that ... with the mix I mean 

ADTOE is great and that was never being questioned. The album was a pretty clear change into a more traditional prog metal sound and I remember how fans wanted just that, which I guess would beg the question if MP leaving was the right thing. For the time I am sure it was. I don't think anyone should regret what happened, it was most likely for the better. If we are lucky the tour and album will be amazing and inject new energy, which I sort of wanted after AVFTTOTW.

Right now I just want them to actually make the album sound a bit different and contain a new energy with MP being a part of that. Not utilizing "MP's cinematic/movie director kind of abilities" on this album would be a missed opportunity for me.

In regards to the box office Dream Theater-be-all-end-all I have been wondering if having MP back is also a good thing for the economy. Don't have anything to back this up with either but since the tours had less and less people for every show, in at least Sweden, it must at least been in their minds. I understand this tour is special and currently not a good measurement because just having MP back and 40 year anniversary will affect the sales.

ok thank you for clarifying - I think I get your opinion now. For the record, I am not a huge fan of the mix on the first two MM albums either. I don't like how I had to struggle to hear the cymbals particularly on DT12. The problem was largely rectified on DoT.

Do you have an cinematic/directorial examples from any MP record - DT or other - from the last 20 years where we know  'MP was responsible for this part'? We've certainly talked about all of the poorly received musical choices he made leading up to his exit so it would be great instead to focus on the positive things that are going to prove to us why this drummer change was such a fantastic musical decision.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

One more thing..I don't want to ignore your last paragraph because you raised an important point.

I would say that having MP back is certainly good for the Dream Theater Economy and if I am right, they were counting on that. I don't fault them for their decision.

[KevShmev]

Unless you're Taylor Swift these days, sellouts at your shows are not a guarantee.  Even Billie Eilish is having trouble selling out a bunch of her shows on her upcoming tour, and she is in that secone tier of most popular artists in the world right now.  Of course, a prog metal band like Dream Theater is a whole different world, but just illustrating that it's tough sledding for most these days when it comes to ticket sales. Many older classic rock bands are doing in the smart way, by touring with other older ones.  I saw Doobie Brothers and Steve Winwood the other day, and I never would have gone to see Winwood on his own, but I enjoyed the hell out of his set.  I obviously don't expect DT to do a double bill like that on a "comeback" tour like this, and we all saw how well that didn't go with Dreamsonic, but it will be interesting to see what sizes the venues are they are playing on this tour and how packed they all are.

[ReaperKK]

Personally I do think that some touring acts (other than TS) are doing really well. I've been going to about 20 shows a year and I'm shocked at how well they sell. Limp Bizkit nearly sold out a 19k venue in Charlotte, Train and REO Speedwagon did the same numbers a week after that. I've seen Incubus over a dozen times and next week I'm seeing them in Amalie Arena, I've never seen them in a venue that big and looking at their show now it seems like they are doing really well too.

I think this might be DT's biggest tour in terms of sales personally. I obviously have no data to back this up but a 40th anniversary coupled with the return of their founding drummer has built a lot of hype for the band.

[Stadler]

The ADTOE 'mistakes' you're talking about are just the drum production?

To the next sentence, I don't think they were trying to show that the 'band was worth following after MP's exit' - more like they were trying to show that DT is still here and fans can still expect great music from us. I don't have sales or box office statistics to back it up but I think when they released ADTOE they demonstrated that MP is not the Dream Theater-be-all-end-all. It appears to be a highly regarded album generally and when you put it in the context of its time (i.e., it was released after 3 consecutive MP albums that were/are not widely liked) I think the question in a lot of fans' minds back then might have been very different to what you posed: was MP leaving the best thing for DT?

No argument, just seeking to understand... what's the difference?

[brakkum]

I saw the

Personally I do think that some touring acts (other than TS) are doing really well.

I saw the other end of this spectrum last night. Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper, Ministry, and Filter. It was very undersold, and Zombie even said so during his set that we were likely the least sold show. It was also very weird how many people just straight up left after Cooper.

[Stadler]

Unless you're Taylor Swift these days, sellouts at your shows are not a guarantee.  Even Billie Eilish is having trouble selling out a bunch of her shows on her upcoming tour, and she is in that secone tier of most popular artists in the world right now.  Of course, a prog metal band like Dream Theater is a whole different world, but just illustrating that it's tough sledding for most these days when it comes to ticket sales. Many older classic rock bands are doing in the smart way, by touring with other older ones.  I saw Doobie Brothers and Steve Winwood the other day, and I never would have gone to see Winwood on his own, but I enjoyed the hell out of his set.  I obviously don't expect DT to do a double bill like that on a "comeback" tour like this, and we all saw how well that didn't go with Dreamsonic, but it will be interesting to see what sizes the venues are they are playing on this tour and how packed they all are.

I think those packages only really work for certain bands.  I can see people going to the Winwood show because they know they'll know ten songs between them and have a great time.   Even the Yes Deep Purple show isn't really that.  Both of those bands have legacy fans that WANT to see an 18 minute song from Tales, or the deeper cut from Fireball. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

No argument, just seeking to understand... what's the difference?

I think what they aimed for was more like a general reassurance to all of us who had questions- reassurance that DT is more than the drummer, that the RemainCo has 4 prolific musicians who are themselves great songwriters, etc.

Trying to convince people we're still worth it' is like saying the fanbase might bounce - and no doubt some of MP's most loyal supporters did, as JP alluded would happen - and please stick around. That is not how I would describe the context in which ADTOE was made. 

That's how I understand it at least.

[DT05]

it's in the air. one month from now, I bet we'll know the title and the cover. very exciting!

[Progmaniac1988]

Maybe they are letting JR's solo album come out first before releasing album info and single? so it dont take momentum away from his solo release?

[ReaperKK]

I don't think it matters. They've had solo and band releases close to each in the past, Elements Of Persuasion came out in March of 2005 and 8V came out in June of 2005.

[DT05]

Maybe they are letting JR's solo album come out first before releasing album info and single? so it dont take momentum away from his solo release?

I don't think it matters. They've had solo and band releases close to each in the past, Elements Of Persuasion came out in March of 2005 and 8V came out in June of 2005.

I was thinking this too. When did Octavarium get announced? Did they wait until EOP released to announce it? I remember EOP was put onto P2P and filesharing purposely mistagged as Octavarium to trick people (I think the album Superior - Younique had this happen for Train of Thought also).

[Wim Kruithof]

Unless you're Taylor Swift these days, sellouts at your shows are not a guarantee.  Even Billie Eilish is having trouble selling out a bunch of her shows on her upcoming tour, and she is in that secone tier of most popular artists in the world right now.  Of course, a prog metal band like Dream Theater is a whole different world, but just illustrating that it's tough sledding for most these days when it comes to ticket sales. Many older classic rock bands are doing in the smart way, by touring with other older ones.  I saw Doobie Brothers and Steve Winwood the other day, and I never would have gone to see Winwood on his own, but I enjoyed the hell out of his set.  I obviously don't expect DT to do a double bill like that on a "comeback" tour like this, and we all saw how well that didn't go with Dreamsonic, but it will be interesting to see what sizes the venues are they are playing on this tour and how packed they all are.

I'll see them in Köln (Germany) and here in Amsterdam this fall and they're both sold out. Especially in Amsterdam it was sold out extremely fast. Which was also the case with TransAtlantic a while ago... so somewhere on the line Portnoy has a valuable role in here.

[Progmaniac1988]

I was thinking this too. When did Octavarium get announced? Did they wait until EOP released to announce it? I remember EOP was put onto P2P and filesharing purposely mistagged as Octavarium to trick people (I think the album Superior - Younique had this happen for Train of Thought also).

I 100% was one of the people almost fooled in 2005 😂 it got me into elements of persuasion tho. So that's ok haha

[Progmaniac1988]

But yeah I was thinking it would be announced maybe a week or 2 after JR's album. It would still be plenty of time to get a single out before the tour starts in October.

[cramx3]

I saw the
I saw the other end of this spectrum last night. Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper, Ministry, and Filter. It was very undersold, and Zombie even said so during his set that we were likely the least sold show. It was also very weird how many people just straight up left after Cooper.

The touring stuff all depends on the band and locations, but generally, IMO, the concert scene may be bigger than it's ever been.  A vast amount of shows sell out these days compared to before covid.  There's still TONS of examples where it's the opposite. 

It seems this summer at my local amphitheater, the shows are either sold out or undersold.  Avril Lavigne sold out this weekend.  Bret Michaels at the same venue is looking really empty next weekend  (so is the Yes/Deep Purple show).

Not surprisingly, Live Nation is posting another record quarter in Q2 2024, with revenue up 7% over Q2 2023 to more than $6 billion, operating income up 21% to $466 million and 39 million fans globally at its concerts, up 5% with double-digit growth at the company's arenas and amphitheaters.

https://variety.com/2024/music/news/live-nation-record-revenue-astroworld-settlements-280-million-1236090404/

Personally, going to so many shows, I feel that bolded. (once again, generally)

[TAC]

I saw the
I saw the other end of this spectrum last night. Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper, Ministry, and Filter. It was very undersold, and Zombie even said so during his set that we were likely the least sold show. It was also very weird how many people just straight up left after Cooper.

I was considering this and I'd only be going for Alice.