DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[emtee]

The funny thing for me concerning MM is...I love showmanship, twirling sticks, standing up behind the kit and rousing the crowd, etc., but when MM would do a single-handed roll or flam and he would raise the other hand up to let us all know he was only using one hand - this came across wrong to me. More like showing off as opposed to showmanship. That's a me thing though. Also, that crazy set-up he had where he had to reach up so high, probably murdering his traps after a 2 hour show, it just looked so damn strange and uncomfortable to me that it was kind of a turn off. Another me thing.

[Orbert]

I have to admit, I kinda felt the same way about MM, at least a little bit.  I'd never seen cymbals mounted up high like that before, so my first thought was that it's really over-the-top (no pun intended) but okay, if you really have so much stuff to hit that you need it mounted on multiple levels, then let's see what you can do.  And he played it all; it wasn't just for show.  But I don't know enough about drumming to know whether it's really necessary to have all that, or what.  I remember people back in the 70's going on about Neil Peart's kit and his "hundreds of toms".  I'd never seen a kit like that before then, either, but eventually came to love it.

And yeah, when he'd do the one-hand thing, it almost felt like "See?  I can do that, too" but that's not really fair, either.  It's more because MP does similar stuff, as do a lot of drummers.  But somehow between doing it, and maybe the expression on his face or something, I got the impression that he was just doing because he was "expected to" or something.  His vibe overall was very different to MP's.  I know it's not his fault, but it still never quite worked for me.

Bottom line to me, though, is what's on the albums.  I've never had a problem with his actual drumming.

[efx]

I feel like he probably felt some pressure to live be more than just a drummer. MP had his shownmanship as well, and MM probably felt he had to bring something to the table. But of course he can't just start spitting everywhere and spin sticks or he would just be labeled a copy cat. So he did was what natural to him.

When it comes to sheer antics between the two I'll take MM any day.

[crystalstars17]

But of course he can't just start spitting everywhere and spin sticks or he would just be labeled a copy cat.

Oh not that, pleeeeease not the spitting.. 😫

When it comes to sheer antics between the two I'll take MM any day.

💯

[Stadler]

I feel like he probably felt some pressure to live be more than just a drummer. MP had his shownmanship as well, and MM probably felt he had to bring something to the table. But of course he can't just start spitting everywhere and spin sticks or he would just be labeled a copy cat. So he did was what natural to him.

When it comes to sheer antics between the two I'll take MM any day.

I don't know; Portnoy is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore and one of the few drummers I'll buy a ticket to go see independent of who he's playing with (Bonham, Collins and Peart are the other three).  I can tell you that when I think of Mike live, "spitting" isn't in the top 45. 

I share the head scratch on some of the over-the-topness of Mangini.  I get that it's like obscenity; hard to define but I know it when I see it.  And it's not a fair standard; I'm a Kiss fan, for god's sake, so next to Gene Simmons, it's hard to pin someone down on being over the top.  FOR ME, I generally have a sense of "place" for people on stage.  I was watching the Journey Through Time DVD (Neal Schon, Gregg Rolie, Deen Castronovo and Marco Mendoza absolutely annihilating in the very best possible way the Journey catalogue). And there were times where Marco was veritably acting like a front man and I was like, tone it down bro; not your band, not your gig, this is about Neal and Gregg.  I used to hate Jack Sonni (RIP) in Drire Straits; it's clearly about Mark (and to a lesser extent John Illsey) and you bopping around like you wrote all that material is out of place. Vinnie Vincent in Kiss, same thing. Unfair?  Of course.  But it's how I feel.  I felt that some of Mangini's stuff wasn't about fun it was about "see what I can do?" and I don't know, it didn't land with me.

Nothing I'm going to not go see them over, nothing that I'm ever going to say to Mike's face, but it's an impression, in keeping with what we're discussing here.

[efx]

I didn't imply that spitting was all that there is to him as a live performer, of course there's more. I just picked one thing among many and something that other people have pointed out as a distraction in the past. Not to me personally as I genuinely enjoy MP as live performer for what he does.

But to me MM seemed to have genuine fun on stage and I never got the sense he was any more of a showboat than JR for example. They're just at a level where people might interpret it as look-what-I-can-do type stuff but in how they talk about music and what it means to them it just comes across as trying to be entertaining in a genuine way.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think that's how life works...

That's sad

[DTwwbwMP]

Portnoy is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore and one of the few drummers I'll buy a ticket to go see independent of who he's playing with.

  Agreed 100% (unfortunately 2 of my other 3 on Mt. Rushmore have passed...Moon & Bonham. Only Mike & Carl Palmer remain).

[TAC]

I share the head scratch on some of the over-the-topness of Mangini.  I get that it's like obscenity; hard to define but I know it when I see it.  And it's not a fair standard; ...and you bopping around like you wrote all that material is out of place. Vinnie Vincent in Kiss, same thing. Unfair?  Of course.  But it's how I feel.  I felt that some of Mangini's stuff wasn't about fun it was about "see what I can do?" and I don't know, it didn't land with me.

A lot of this is quite interesting and I thank you for trying, and succeeding, in putting all this into words.

(not directing the rest of this post to you..)
Personally, I thought MM carved out his place live pretty much right off the bat. I don't know how anyone can think MP's toms up high is simply for show when MP literally had two drum sets fused together. And I know the reason behind MP doing so, and it isn't anymore valid than MM's. I actually liked that one handed roll. I mean, he did that in the audition. I loved the showmanship.

[Stadler]

I didn't imply that spitting was all that there is to him as a live performer, of course there's more. I just picked one thing among many and something that other people have pointed out as a distraction in the past. Not to me personally as I genuinely enjoy MP as live performer for what he does.

But to me MM seemed to have genuine fun on stage and I never got the sense he was any more of a showboat than JR for example. They're just at a level where people might interpret it as look-what-I-can-do type stuff but in how they talk about music and what it means to them it just comes across as trying to be entertaining in a genuine way.

One thing that I should say is...  So I play guitar and there are more guitar players than not that I can't play their stuff. I suck.  But I can play some Blackmore, who is a god to me, and a little Van Halen, but increasingly I think Petrucci is really a step above like 99% of guitar players. He, more than even guys like Satriani and Vai, have made me say "WTF?".  I saw two shows on his solo tour and there were moments where it was clear to me he's not just 'playing notes'.  I forget the song (it was the song where he and Mike shared the nod in Berkeley) and he played this part that was just otherworldly and he did it note-perfect both nights. 

But he does it without any fanfare. He kind of puts his foot up on that metal thing and wails.  I don't want to say there's no showmanship, that's not true, but he makes it look so fucking easy, and we know it's not.  Rudess is sort of the same way, and let's be honest, Myung makes Ozzy at 70 look like Eddie Vedder hanging from the rafters.  So I don't equate showmanship with playing in Dream Theater.  The other guys make it look so simple, so easy, and I KNOW it's not that the whole over-the-topness with the playing stood out to me. 

I don't know; this is clearly a Stadler problem, and I own it.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't know; Portnoy is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore and one of the few drummers I'll buy a ticket to go see independent of who he's playing with (Bonham, Collins and Peart are the other three).  I can tell you that when I think of Mike live, "spitting" isn't in the top 45. 

I share the head scratch on some of the over-the-topness of Mangini.  I get that it's like obscenity; hard to define but I know it when I see it.  And it's not a fair standard; I'm a Kiss fan, for god's sake, so next to Gene Simmons, it's hard to pin someone down on being over the top.  FOR ME, I generally have a sense of "place" for people on stage.  I was watching the Journey Through Time DVD (Neal Schon, Gregg Rolie, Deen Castronovo and Marco Mendoza absolutely annihilating in the very best possible way the Journey catalogue). And there were times where Marco was veritably acting like a front man and I was like, tone it down bro; not your band, not your gig, this is about Neal and Gregg.  I used to hate Jack Sonni (RIP) in Drire Straits; it's clearly about Mark (and to a lesser extent John Illsey) and you bopping around like you wrote all that material is out of place. Vinnie Vincent in Kiss, same thing. Unfair?  Of course.  But it's how I feel.  I felt that some of Mangini's stuff wasn't about fun it was about "see what I can do?" and I don't know, it didn't land with me.

Nothing I'm going to not go see them over, nothing that I'm ever going to say to Mike's face, but it's an impression, in keeping with what we're discussing here.

What stuff in particular did you feel was about showing off and over the top?

The only thing I can think of from the last 13 years where it was obvious 'look what I can do' is the speed he showed off during the Luna Park drum solo. He was known for having that fastest time record thing and that was obviously thrown in to show the fans. To my knowledge that was the only time he ever used it in a DT context.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The funny thing for me concerning MM is...I love showmanship, twirling sticks, standing up behind the kit and rousing the crowd, etc., but when MM would do a single-handed roll or flam and he would raise the other hand up to let us all know he was only using one hand - this came across wrong to me. More like showing off as opposed to showmanship. That's a me thing though. Also, that crazy set-up he had where he had to reach up so high, probably murdering his traps after a 2 hour show, it just looked so damn strange and uncomfortable to me that it was kind of a turn off. Another me thing.

The single handed roll to my knowledge only happened twice - during the drum solos on the first two tours. The solo - his time to shine - seems like the right place for something like that.  It's not something that the DT fanbase was continuously inundated with to say the least.

Mike has addressed the set up of his kit a few times before in interviews. The cymbals and cannons (not sure what the technical term is for these drums) placement and the mirror image of his kit was designed with a musical reason in mind that he explains here:

According to him the cymbals are actually closer to him than they would otherwise be. If I am understanding him correctly, the cannons are higher for one due to sound isolation. It appears to be partly a function of the way his 'mirror image' kit is set up - I guess the sound of these cymbals would bleed into the surrounding drums to a degree he found suboptimal. However, in the above link he also says in a live setting he'll make it seem like a stretch to be a 'wise guy' because he knows that - for a reason I have yet to understand personally- it bothers some fans including people who do not actually play drums.

Now why the set up of a highly skilled drummers kit (including MP's enormous monster of a kit) would bother anyone if he says it is easier for him and helps him achieve a sound that is accretive to the group but I guess that is a separate thing.

[KevShmev]

I feel like I am living in the twilight zone.  The implication that Mangini never "underplayed" or played just for the song seems way off to me, as I remember many giving him much love for his playing during JP's long solo at the end of A New Beginning; no flashy fills or speedy playing, just played it straight and let JP shine.  Same thing for the solo in Breaking All Illusions.

I don't think the mixes did him favors with regards to many of the slow songs/ballads, with Along for the Ride being a prime example; I am not always a fan of that kind of fat drum sound in a slow song, as it gives it too much of a cheesy monster ballad feel.  Granted, we got the same thing with Another Day, so it can work; it's just not a preference of mine.

[Herrick]

^While I cannot believe ANYONE could be happier than I that MP is back with DT, I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT blame MM for any issues with the last 3 albums (1 abomination and 2 below average).

[Stadler]

What stuff in particular did you feel was about showing off and over the top?

The only thing I can think of from the last 13 years where it was obvious 'look what I can do' is the speed he showed off during the Luna Park drum solo. He was known for having that fastest time record thing and that was obviously thrown in to show the fans. To my knowledge that was the only time he ever used it in a DT context.

I've written this before, and it's going to sound out of place and unfair boiling it down like this. But in summary: Mangini has a way of playing 4/4 that sounds like 187/252 and I think there are more bass drum hits per minute of music on the last five DT albums than any five albums in non-thrash metal history.  I exaggerate to make a point, but not by much. One example is the last minute and a half of the otherwise OUTSTANDING "This Is The Life" and another is ALL of the aforementioned "Along For The Ride"; easily three quarters of the bass drum hits in the latter do not add anything to the SONG.   I don't BLAME Mangini - some of it is in the mix, because there are certainly moments for MP where there is aggressive bass drum playing, but his sound and style sounds more integrated - and I don't CRITICIZE Mangini, because it's simply my taste. 

[TAC]

I've written this before, and it's going to sound out of place and unfair boiling it down like this. But in summary: Mangini has a way of playing 4/4 that sounds like 187/252 and I think there are more bass drum hits per minute of music on the last five DT albums than any five albums in non-thrash metal history.  I exaggerate to make a point, but not by much. One example is the last minute and a half of the otherwise OUTSTANDING "This Is The Life".  I don't BLAME Mangini - some of it is in the mix, because there are certainly moments for MP where there is aggressive bass drum playing, but his sound and style sounds more integrated - and I don't CRITICIZE Mangini, because it's simply my taste. 

Bill, that definitely makes sense. They have very different styles, which really makes the discussion interesting. But generally, I agree that MP had a way of creating the illusion that what he's playing is simpler than it really is.

I've called it a playalongability to MP's playing as opposed to MM's playing. I think it helps/helped make connecting to the music easier for some, and I totally get that.

[Stadler]

I feel like I am living in the twilight zone.  The implication that Mangini never "underplayed" or played just for the song seems way off to me, as I remember many giving him much love for his playing during JP's long solo at the end of A New Beginning; no flashy fills or speedy playing, just played it straight and let JP shine.  Same thing for the solo in Breaking All Illusions.

I don't think the mixes did him favors with regards to many of the slow songs/ballads, with Along for the Ride being a prime example; I am not always a fan of that kind of fat drum sound in a slow song, as it gives it too much of a cheesy monster ballad feel.  Granted, we got the same thing with Another Day, so it can work; it's just not a preference of mine.

Kev, never say never.  He - Mangini - is a supremely talented musician by any standard. It's not like he's some 17-year-old kid operating in a vacuum.  He had some amazing moments in Dream Theater and that's not even up for discussion (at least with me).  I know for me, I've said this before: the standard he was stepping into was - for me - INCREDIBLY high. INCREDIBLY.  DT was a top three, top tier band, with Portnoy, and it's not like they fell off the face of the earth with Mangini. They just settled down into something more earthly, but I was still first-day-purchaser, and I've seen DT more with Mangini than with Portnoy.  I love some of the material on those five albums; it's just not life-changing like some of the earlier stuff was for me.  I have something like 3,000 CDs; my all-time top 10 album list is...  god-tier doesn't do it justice.  But Images and Words is in there. THAT'S what Mangini was being compared against.  FOR ME, it was like replacing Gene Simmons in Kiss, or Paul McCartney in the Beatles.   It's all relative.

[TAC]

I love some of the material on those five albums; it's just not life-changing like some of the earlier stuff was for me.  It's all relative.

How many times in the last 10 years have you run into life changing music? I guess I'm asking more philosophically. Like is there a time on one's life where time and experience create these opportunities?

[WilliamMunny]

How many times in the last 10 years have you run into life changing music? I guess I'm asking more philosophically. Like is there a time on one's life where time and experience create these opportunities?

That is such an interesting thought, and one that I was actually discussing the other day with my wife.

Of all of my musician friends and even family members, I'm pretty much the only person I know my age (mid '40s) who still seeks out and enjoys new music. And not just new as in 'haven't heard it before,' but new as in young, upcoming bands.

In the last five years, so since I turned 40, I've literally had my mind blown by a handful of albums and artists that, in some ways, eclipses where I was at as a teenager.

The Beths (Cheap Trick meets The Pretenders meets New Zealand) is a top 10 all-time band for me at this point...I feel so fortunate that I have been there from the beginning and, unlike so many other acts, I might actually be able to take my boy to see them someday.

That all said, I am fully aware that I am an outlier. And if I wasn't working so hard at looking for new music, I don't think it would just fall into my lap. After all, I'm a busy guy (aren't we all). I just placed a major emphasis on music back in the day and those habits have endured.

[efx]

I'm a musician myself and was raised by two artists, my dad being pianist and my mom a visual artist. I think they taught me early on to not lose that openmindedness you have as a kid and always be open to new experiences in art.
I have a lot of friends my age (40's) that are now firmly in the camp of settling on what they will listen to as their main thing from here on out and I'm not judging that.

But I have discovered so much music post 30 that is as important to me as anything I discovered in my formative years that I will continue to try do that at every opportunity.

[HOF]

I was discovering a ton of music from HS and college and beyond until I got married, then I was in grad school and having kids until around age 30 and there wasn't as much time (or money) for new music. But since I got beyond that phase of life, I'm listening to more new music than ever before probably, and still getting into bands and artists I'd never explored before (though a lot of it is older music from the 70s and 80s). Two of my current top 5 favorite bands/artists were discovered after (or right around) age 30.

[WilliamMunny]

I was discovering a ton of music from HS and college and beyond until I got married, then I was in grad school and having kids until around age 30 and there wasn't as much time (or money) for new music. But since I got beyond that phase of life, I'm listening to more new music than ever before probably, and still getting into bands and artists I'd never explored before (though a lot of it is older music from the 70s and 80s). Two of my current top 5 favorite bands/artists were discovered after (or right around) age 30.

That's awesome!

[HOF]

Thinking about it now, both may have been discovered in between the birth of my first and second child, and I was 30 when the second was born. But there have certainly been other artists I've discovered and who have made a big impact since then.

[Trav]

I was discovering a ton of music from HS and college and beyond until I got married, then I was in grad school and having kids until around age 30 and there wasn't as much time (or money) for new music. But since I got beyond that phase of life, I'm listening to more new music than ever before probably, and still getting into bands and artists I'd never explored before (though a lot of it is older music from the 70s and 80s). Two of my current top 5 favorite bands/artists were discovered after (or right around) age 30.

Same for me. For about 10 years I didn't really pay attention to new music besides what Dream Theater was putting out. A bad marriage, a bad job, life gets in the way. But now I've spent the last 8 or 9 years catching up.

[Stadler]

How many times in the last 10 years have you run into life changing music? I guess I'm asking more philosophically. Like is there a time on one's life where time and experience create these opportunities?

That's a great question and it's totally random.   

Meaning, LIFE creates the opportunity.  Marriages, divorces, deaths... and frankly, now at 56, it's less that I get new music that changes my life, than I rely on old music to document the changes in my life.  Again, never say never, but I think the "life changing music" ship might have sailed.

EDIT: No, no it hasn't.  Some Taylor Swift music has made it's way into my personal zeitgeist because of my daughter. 

[Stadler]

I'm a musician myself and was raised by two artists, my dad being pianist and my mom a visual artist. I think they taught me early on to not lose that openmindedness you have as a kid and always be open to new experiences in art.
I have a lot of friends my age (40's) that are now firmly in the camp of settling on what they will listen to as their main thing from here on out and I'm not judging that.

But I have discovered so much music post 30 that is as important to me as anything I discovered in my formative years that I will continue to try do that at every opportunity.

My problem with new music isn't openmindedness, it's the fact that I know too much.  Metaphorically, of course.

It's hard to listen to The Lady Gaga with fresh ears, when I grew up on Madonna.   It's hard to listen to some of the music that gets passed around in roulettes with fresh ears when I was weaned on their influences (I'm trying to think of a good example and I'm blanking).  I was listening to the playlist for Lonestar's last round and I thought "Oh, that's a good song; sounds like Tool!.  That's a good song, sounds like DT!" But I can't help thinking, why not just listen to Tool and DT?

[cramx3]

How many times in the last 10 years have you run into life changing music? I guess I'm asking more philosophically. Like is there a time on one's life where time and experience create these opportunities?

Of course it gets hard to have those experiences with age because it's just hard to have a new experience as you've gained so much experience, but it happens and it happens often enough IMO.

I'm a musician myself and was raised by two artists, my dad being pianist and my mom a visual artist. I think they taught me early on to not lose that openmindedness you have as a kid and always be open to new experiences in art.
I have a lot of friends my age (40's) that are now firmly in the camp of settling on what they will listen to as their main thing from here on out and I'm not judging that.

But I have discovered so much music post 30 that is as important to me as anything I discovered in my formative years that I will continue to try do that at every opportunity.

There's a stat out there that backs this up.  Most people once they become adults don't listen to new music anymore. I don't fall into that catagory and I think that's probably why I can say within the last 10 years I've experienced a lot of life changing music.

[Sacul]

How many times in the last 10 years have you run into life changing music? I guess I'm asking more philosophically. Like is there a time on one's life where time and experience create these opportunities?

I've only been an avid music listener for like 12 years now, so I've technically discovered most of my life-changing music during the first 10 of those   But I'd say I'm having a sort of renaissance lately and rediscovering records and sounds that weren't my thing before but are clicking for me now. It's a wonderful experience, to feel there's still more to find out there that would make it into my favorites.

There's a stat out there that backs this up.  Most people once they become adults don't listen to new music anymore. I don't fall into that catagory and I think that's probably why I can say within the last 10 years I've experienced a lot of life changing music.

There's this wonderful quote by John Waters:

No, the hit records of your generation are not better than today's. As soon as you stop listening to new music, your life is over. You are a fart.

That's why I try so hard to keep up with what's new instead of getting stuck on the late 200s / early to mid 2010s, where most of my favorite records come from.

[crystalstars17]

There's a stat out there that backs this up.  Most people once they become adults don't listen to new music anymore. I don't fall into that catagory and I think that's probably why I can say within the last 10 years I've experienced a lot of life changing music.

Same. I can honestly say that I encountered the music that I love the most as an adult, even in recent years. I discovered my top five favorite bands in the last ten years, in fact, including one of my very dearest favorites (Firewind) at a concert only two years ago. I would definitely call these discoveries "life changing music", even though they didn't happen earlier.

[Stadler]

I've only been an avid music listener for like 12 years now, so I've technically discovered most of my life-changing music during the first 10 of those   But I'd say I'm having a sort of renaissance lately and rediscovering records and sounds that weren't my thing before but are clicking for me now. It's a wonderful experience, to feel there's still more to find out there that would make it into my favorites.
There's this wonderful quote by John Waters:
That's why I try so hard to keep up with what's new instead of getting stuck on the late 200s / early to mid 2010s, where most of my favorite records come from.

John Waters can kiss my ass.

[efx]

My problem with new music isn't openmindedness, it's the fact that I know too much.  Metaphorically, of course.

It's hard to listen to The Lady Gaga with fresh ears, when I grew up on Madonna.   It's hard to listen to some of the music that gets passed around in roulettes with fresh ears when I was weaned on their influences (I'm trying to think of a good example and I'm blanking).  I was listening to the playlist for Lonestar's last round and I thought "Oh, that's a good song; sounds like Tool!.  That's a good song, sounds like DT!" But I can't help thinking, why not just listen to Tool and DT?

That's why I gravitate to stuff that doesn't sound like the stuff I grew up on. Of course with time our ability ti be taken by complete surprise goes down but there's just so much new stuff there all the time that's very different than what came before that I'm seemingly never "burdened" by any connections to what came before.

[hefdaddy42]

John Waters can kiss my ass.

You fart

[jammindude]

I'm 54 (55 in a few months) and I just heard one of the greatest progressive metal albums ever just last year.

The Fox and the Bird by OK Goodnight in case you're wondering.

But it's more than just a great album. It got me excited because it made me realize that even now there's incredible new music being made that can give me chills and goosebumps and it has sent me into a new era of wanting to seek out more stuff.

As has been hinted above, I feel like when you never stop searching it keeps you young

[Dream Team]

If anyone is trying to evaluate the psychological motivations behind every drummer's showing off, they should seek help.

[CodyWanKenobi]

The funny thing for me concerning MM is...I love showmanship, twirling sticks, standing up behind the kit and rousing the crowd, etc., but when MM would do a single-handed roll or flam and he would raise the other hand up to let us all know he was only using one hand - this came across wrong to me. More like showing off as opposed to showmanship. That's a me thing though. Also, that crazy set-up he had where he had to reach up so high, probably murdering his traps after a 2 hour show, it just looked so damn strange and uncomfortable to me that it was kind of a turn off. Another me thing.

I always took the one handed drumroll as him being playful. He always did it with a smile, rather than a smug, arrogant face. That being said, it probably helped me to know what his personality is like from interviews and the drummer audition doc. Knowing what he's like really put those moments into context for me. He's having fun. He knows DT fans like chops and proficiency (obviously among so many other things), and he was just giving us that. I've seen MP play a game of drum stick catch with an offstage tech in the middle of a song multiple times (so fuckin cool btw). That's definitely more show-offy than a one handed drum roll, but even THAT wasn't show-offy. It was just fun. That's just my two cents though.