Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[El Barto]

Dehumanizer is one of my very favorites, but you're right that it's not subtle. There seems to be some genuine anger going on there. Still, I remains one of the standouts from Dio's entire catalog, IMO. The only problem I have with Dehumanizer is that it prevented a followup to TYR with Cozy/Niel Murray. Those two were awesome together, but five years later they cranked out some real crap with Forbidden.

You know it's funny you mentioned the lack of subtlety and presence of anger. I've often thought that Dio's next album, Strange Highways was less subtle and a lot angrier than what he had done before, and I've often thought that it was a reflection of the Black Sabbath thing not working out at that time.

Yeah, SH was definitely a lot angrier. To be honest I never considered that shift in tone there in relation to the same shift with Sabbath (Dehumanizer was a completely different sound than TYR). Unfortunately Strange Highways, as well as Angry Machines, were also both shit so I never put much thought into analysis. I always just assumed "well, must be Tracy G" and moved onto the next ones. Since Magica was seriously kick ass I had little reason to think about those two albums ever again.


edit: and now that I think about it, Lock Up the Wolves (a much, much better album than the Tracy G ones) wasn't angry at all. It's like as soon as Dio and Iommi (and at that point Geezer) got into the same room they all switched from writing good interesting music to writing musical hostility.  Fortunately, as in the case of Dehumanizer that occasionally works very well.

[TAC]

Lock Up The Wolves is AWESOME!!!!!

[Stadler]

Dehumanizer is one of my very favorites, but you're right that it's not subtle. There seems to be some genuine anger going on there. Still, I remains one of the standouts from Dio's entire catalog, IMO. The only problem I have with Dehumanizer is that it prevented a followup to TYR with Cozy/Niel Murray. Those two were awesome together, but five years later they cranked out some real crap with Forbidden.

You know it's funny you mentioned the lack of subtlety and presence of anger. I've often thought that Dio's next album, Strange Highways was less subtle and a lot angrier than what he had done before, and I've often thought that it was a reflection of the Black Sabbath thing not working out at that time.

Yeah, SH was definitely a lot angrier. To be honest I never considered that shift in tone there in relation to the same shift with Sabbath (Dehumanizer was a completely different sound than TYR). Unfortunately Strange Highways, as well as Angry Machines, were also both shit so I never put much thought into analysis. I always just assumed "well, must be Tracy G" and moved onto the next ones. Since Magica was seriously kick ass I had little reason to think about those two albums ever again.


edit: and now that I think about it, Lock Up the Wolves (a much, much better album than the Tracy G ones) wasn't angry at all. It's like as soon as Dio and Iommi (and at that point Geezer) got into the same room they all switched from writing good interesting music to writing musical hostility.  Fortunately, as in the case of Dehumanizer that occasionally works very well.

We've got a lot of commonality here.  Love Dio solo, but really, for me, it goes "Dream Evil", "Magica", "Killing The Dragon" and "Master of the Moon".  I really like Craig Goldie, but there is little in those other records (that I didn't name) that I like much. 

[TAC]

You have those albums listed in the right order.

But to me, Goldie has no personality. Traci G had personality. I didn't care for it, but his albums had an undeniable feel. Goldie? What's his mark on an album. Hell Rowan Robertson owned LUTW as Vivian did on the first few albums. What exactly does Goldie add?

[chaossystem]

I don't mean to take it too far off-topic, but the only thing I agree with is that Angry Machines was Dio's worst album. Other than Big Sister, Double Monday, and especially Hunter of the Heart, I won't even LISTEN to the rest of that album.

However, I DO like Tracy G's guitar playing, and Strange Highways actually has about the same number of songs that I like on it as Dehumanizer does.

Also Master of the Moon and The devil You Know only had four songs each that I liked.

For some reason the quality just wasn't there for me like it was on Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules, and those first few Dio albums.

But it did get better on Magica and Killing the Dragon, so it's possible that the Magica sequel(s) he was planning at the time of his passing would have been better, as well...

[Stadler]

For some reason the quality just wasn't there for me like it was on Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules, and those first few Dio albums.

But it did get better on Magica and Killing the Dragon, so it's possible that the Magica sequel(s) he was planning at the time of his passing would have been better, as well...

I have a wholly unsubstantiated and unproven theory on this.  I think when Dio just... "created", he was magic.  Same with Iommi.  Iommi was Johnny on the Spot for Sabbath from Sabotage through Never Say Die, and I LOVE those records.  Same with Dio in Rainbow, and when Viv was in Dio.   But as time went on, it almost seemed like he had to be "metal", and when he and Iommi got together it was like Iommi HAD to be the sludge-king Riffmaster General.   It's the same beef I have with some of the guys that have 4 different projects (and yes, Mike Portnoy falls into this sometimes).  When you have the "metal" project, and ONLY the metal ideas are brought out, or the "prog" project, and ONLY the prog ideas get brought out, you suffer from the false constraint. 

I liked with Martin that Iommi could do what he wanted; "Can't Get Close Enough" isn't a "heavy metal song", but it RULES. 

[El Barto]

I put Magica way above DE, KtD and MotM.

You have those albums listed in the right order.

But to me, Goldie has no personality. Traci G had personality. I didn't care for it, but his albums had an undeniable feel. Goldie? What's his mark on an album. Hell Rowan Robertson owned LUTW as Vivian did on the first few albums. What exactly does Goldie add?

Not sure where you're looking for personality. Whether it's in his actual playing or as a contributor to the material. I found him more soulful as a player than most of Dio's other guitarists (RW excepted), and I found the tone of their albums unique. As for his mark on an album, I'd go with Annika on the Japanese issue of Magica. Shame it was left off the US release, as it was perfect where it was supposed to be.

As an aside, the Magica tour was one of the best Dio shows I've seen. Despite being completely shitfaced and battling a nasty case of the spins off and on, I remember it very well and I definitely remember that Goldie owned that show.

[El Barto]

For some reason the quality just wasn't there for me like it was on Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules, and those first few Dio albums.

But it did get better on Magica and Killing the Dragon, so it's possible that the Magica sequel(s) he was planning at the time of his passing would have been better, as well...

I have a wholly unsubstantiated and unproven theory on this.  I think when Dio just... "created", he was magic.  Same with Iommi.  Iommi was Johnny on the Spot for Sabbath from Sabotage through Never Say Die, and I LOVE those records.  Same with Dio in Rainbow, and when Viv was in Dio.   But as time went on, it almost seemed like he had to be "metal", and when he and Iommi got together it was like Iommi HAD to be the sludge-king Riffmaster General.   It's the same beef I have with some of the guys that have 4 different projects (and yes, Mike Portnoy falls into this sometimes).  When you have the "metal" project, and ONLY the metal ideas are brought out, or the "prog" project, and ONLY the prog ideas get brought out, you suffer from the false constraint. 

I liked with Martin that Iommi could do what he wanted; "Can't Get Close Enough" isn't a "heavy metal song", but it RULES.

Both Dio and Sabbath were at their best when doing stuff outside of what was expected of them. Note that some of their best work was on albums that the mainstream doesn't like.

[TAC]

I put Magica way above DE, KtD and MotM.

You have those albums listed in the right order.

But to me, Goldie has no personality. Traci G had personality. I didn't care for it, but his albums had an undeniable feel. Goldie? What's his mark on an album. Hell Rowan Robertson owned LUTW as Vivian did on the first few albums. What exactly does Goldie add?

Not sure where you're looking for personality. Whether it's in his actual playing or as a contributor to the material. I found him more soulful as a player than most of Dio's other guitarists (RW excepted), and I found the tone of their albums unique. As for his mark on an album, I'd go with Annika on the Japanese issue of Magica. Shame it was left off the US release, as it was perfect where it was supposed to be.

As an aside, the Magica tour was one of the best Dio shows I've seen. Despite being completely shitfaced and battling a nasty case of the spins off and on, I remember it very well and I definitely remember that Goldie owned that show.

Bart, I think you like Magica way more than I do. I think I have a few boots from the Magica tour that are good.

I just find nothing remarkable in his playing. Sure live he may have torn it up. I honestly don't remember since it has literally been 29/30 years since I saw Goldie play with him. I love Dream Evil, and I think a handful of Magica tunes are very good, but there's nothing about Goldie himself that makes me go Wow.

[Stadler]

For some reason the quality just wasn't there for me like it was on Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules, and those first few Dio albums.

But it did get better on Magica and Killing the Dragon, so it's possible that the Magica sequel(s) he was planning at the time of his passing would have been better, as well...

I have a wholly unsubstantiated and unproven theory on this.  I think when Dio just... "created", he was magic.  Same with Iommi.  Iommi was Johnny on the Spot for Sabbath from Sabotage through Never Say Die, and I LOVE those records.  Same with Dio in Rainbow, and when Viv was in Dio.   But as time went on, it almost seemed like he had to be "metal", and when he and Iommi got together it was like Iommi HAD to be the sludge-king Riffmaster General.   It's the same beef I have with some of the guys that have 4 different projects (and yes, Mike Portnoy falls into this sometimes).  When you have the "metal" project, and ONLY the metal ideas are brought out, or the "prog" project, and ONLY the prog ideas get brought out, you suffer from the false constraint. 

I liked with Martin that Iommi could do what he wanted; "Can't Get Close Enough" isn't a "heavy metal song", but it RULES.

Both Dio and Sabbath were at their best when doing stuff outside of what was expected of them. Note that some of their best work was on albums that the mainstream doesn't like.

EXACTLY.  Bulls-eye.  Nailed it. 

[gazinwales]

Has anyone seen or is going to see them on 'The End' tour?
I've never seen them live, so I'm planning to see them in Sydney.

They are selling a concert exclusive CD (The End) with 8 songs 4 leftover's from the 13 albums sessions and 4 live songs from the last tour.

[BlobVanDam]

Has anyone seen or is going to see them on 'The End' tour?
I've never seen them live, so I'm planning to see them in Sydney.

Ditto! I was bummed I missed them last tour (too many people touring at once), so I'm glad I got another opportunity to see them in Sydney.

[wolfking]

I think I might have to go and see them too.  Never seen them before so my it's last chance obviously.

[BlobVanDam]

Regardless of how Ozzy sounds these days, Black Sabbath is one of those bands I feel I need to see while I can, and I'd regret missing it. Tony and Geezer. Enough said. (I know, shame about Ward, but I can deal with it)

[wolfking]

Ward not being there does leave a sour taste in the mouth, but yeah, Tony is one of my idols so I'll probably try and go.

[jjrock88]

I also figured it was the last chance to see such a legendary band. Will be seeing them in two nights!

[wolfking]

   Let us know how it goes Jason.

[jjrock88]

Will do!! Has anyone heard who is opening for them on this tour?

[wolfking]

Yeah good question.  You'd think it would be someone pretty well known.

[ozzy554]

Will do!! Has anyone heard who is opening for them on this tour?

I think its rival sons

[jjrock88]

Will do!! Has anyone heard who is opening for them on this tour?

I think its rival sons

Copy. Thanks dude

[wolfking]

Never heard of 'em.

[jjrock88]

I've heard of them, not my cup of tea

[El Barto]

Christ, I had no idea the tour was starting this early. They're not coming here until late August. Which now compels me to assume that they never make it this far. No chance in hell Ozzy holds up 7 months on tour.

[ozzy554]

Christ, I had no idea the tour was starting this early. They're not coming here until late August. Which now compels me to assume that they never make it this far. No chance in hell Ozzy holds up 7 months on tour.

After each leg of the tour they take a few weeks to a month off.

[Stadler]

Christ, I had no idea the tour was starting this early. They're not coming here until late August. Which now compels me to assume that they never make it this far. No chance in hell Ozzy holds up 7 months on tour.

Ozzy?   Iommi, given the last four weeks...

And is it any wonder that they aren't caving to Bill's unreasonable and delusional demands to be the full tour drummer?   

I'm going to go, though, in August when they come to Connecticut.

[TAC]

And is it any wonder that they aren't caving to Bill's unreasonable and delusional demands to be the full tour drummer?   

What were they?

[bl5150]

And is it any wonder that they aren't caving to Bill's unreasonable and delusional demands to be the full tour drummer?   

What were they?

I think it was just along the lines of "I drum for the whole tour or not at all."

[BlobVanDam]

I thought it was just a matter of wanting an equal cut or something like that, at least according to him.

[wolfking]

I thought it was just a matter of wanting an equal cut or something like that, at least according to him.

That's what I recall too.  He was saying something like it wasn't split equally between the four or something along those lines.  I think he was aiming it all at Sharon.

[Stadler]

I thought it was just a matter of wanting an equal cut or something like that, at least according to him.

That's what I recall too.  He was saying something like it wasn't split equally between the four or something along those lines.  I think he was aiming it all at Sharon.

Here's my understanding:

Ward wanted to be THE drummer for the album and tour. No "co-drummer", no "drummer in the wings", no "drummer backstage".  THE GUY.  He wanted 25% of EVERYTHING, including writing and publishing credits, even though by most (if not all) accounts, the material was at least frameworked out before he ever got involved. 

Everyone keeps blaming Sharon, but honestly, I'm pointing the finger at Tony Iommi.  When it comes to Sabbath, Ozzy's involvement is tied to Sharon, but Sabbath as a unit doesn't fart without Tony's giving the A-ok.  Even Geezer has sort of conceded the torch to Iommi, though because of the lyrical contributions, he does get a writing credit.

The fact is, this is an investment of YEARS, and TENS of millions of dollars.    If you've got a guy that all three of the other guys do not believe can cut the mustard, it's not fair to them to hold them hostage over your petty gripes.  In fact, I would imagine that the management - I don't mean Sharon, I mean the tour promoters, insurers, labor providers, etc. - have a say in this too; if I'm being asked to provide insurance for this tour, and they tell me that Bill Ward is a quarter of the endeavor, I'm saying "NOPE."  Because my investment is now at multiples of risk from what it was.   

Finally, everyone talks about the "fans". The "fans" this, and the "fans" that, but how happy are the fans going to be when they shelled out $125 for a ticket that is now unredeemable because the drummer had a heart attack and couldn't go on?   Or that they shelled out $125 THINKING it was Bill and finding out it's some guy named Clusterfuck or whatever his name is?   Think about the flack that James got for his voice after the food-poisoning incident.  Do you think fans gave a fuck that he "toughed it out"? 

[ozzy554]

Even with tonys illness it was bills health I was most concerned about.

[jjrock88]

Man what a great show last night. If you get a chance to see them on this tour, I highly recommend it. The show was much better than I thought it was going to be and Ozzy sounded great. Awesome set list too!

Rival Sons didn't float my boat whatsoever though

[wolfking]

Cool shit Jason.  Looks like I might definitely have to see them now.

[jjrock88]

Cool shit Jason.  Looks like I might definitely have to see them now.

You'll love it!